Wade and Bosh in Miami

[shiloh26]

A successful comeback is one thing ... being a global icon with a "brand?"  Well, only two people on that list can say that - Tiger and Kobe.  And Tiger's been taking a turn for the worse lately.

Tiger and Kobe were both engaged in various degrees of sexual misconduct.  That is not even kind of the same thing as exercising a right to be a free agent.  LeBron is going about this douchily, but he is going to be just fine on the moneymaking front.  Not as good as if he went to New York... 

[TallTitan34]

Bill Simmons says:

Let's say LeBron signs with Miami. Can you even make the Finals with LeBron, Bosh, Wade and nine minimum-salary guys? Because that might be next year's team ... and if that's what happens, the answer is "no effing way." You don't win titles just because of your top three. That belittles the meaning of guys like Derek Fisher, Robert Horry, Steve Kerr, John Paxson, Brian Shaw ... you could go on for hours naming role players who swung a title. The 2008 Celts lucked out by getting James Posey, Eddie House and P.J. Brown for practically nothing; Miami wouldn't have that luxury this summer, not with so many role players jockeying for contracts one year before the possible lockout. Nobody is taking less money to showcase themselves for a summer that might not happen. Even if Miami could spin Michael Beasley for a fourth guy (say, Trevor Ariza), that's still not enough. They'd need one more rebounder, point guard, a 3-point shooter and a center. Good luck.

Another problem: You realize how many minutes these guys would log on a three-man team? About 42-44 minutes for 100 games ... and if anyone missed an extended stretch of games, then that would put even more pressure on the other two. Crazy. No way they win more than 50, especially with teams gunning for them every night. We've also never seen two perimeter superstar alpha dogs coexist for an NBA title -- not even when Jerry West and Elgin Baylor teamed up with Wilt Chamberlain against the aging Celtics in 1969. LeBron would have to accept becoming Mega-Pippen to Wade's Jordan. (Yeah, right.) Even during the final quarter of the 2008 gold-medal game, when everyone on the American team was staring at each other wondering who was going to step up against a red-hot Spain team, there were a few minutes of tentative, "I don't want to step on anyone's toes here" basketball before Kobe said, "Screw it, get out of my way" and took over the key portion of the game.

What should LeBron do? Pick Chicago. That's where the rings are. The fact that he didn't say to Bosh, "Come to Chicago with me, we'll play with Rose and Noah and win six titles together" was the single most disappointing outcome of the summer. That team would have been a true juggernaut with pieces that actually complemented each other, unlike this pickup-basketball situation that's brewing in Miami. Even with Boozer there in Bosh's place -- and I think he's a great fit for them, with or without LeBron -- it could still translate to multiple titles, because Rose could have been the best second banana since Kobe in 2001.

[Dish]

Thanks TallTitan, I was going to quote Simmons column as well. Simmons lays it out perfectly.

If LBJ goes to these places, it's because:

Chicago (winning)
Cleveland (loyalty)
New York (immortality)
Miami (????)

I (and people in the know) have no idea how good or bad the Heat would be with those 3. It would be them and 9 minimum salary guys. They would absolutely have to draft well going forward.

I know everyone thinks this will be the greatest team ever, but who shoots in crunch time? Wade is 28 with a TON of miles on him. Bosh is a solid player, but hardly a superstar. When 2 of the 3 are on the bench, and it's LBJ with 4 stiffs out there, opposing teams are going to go on runs. It feels like a fantasy basketball team turning into reality.

Right now, no one knows anything. LBJ and his circle haven't said anything. I know all the talk is Miami right now, but all the talk last week had it down to the Bulls/Cavs.

My prediction, just a hunch, as people I talk to have no clue any more....he stays in Cleveland.

[LON]

Thanks TallTitan, I was going to quote Simmons column as well. Simmons lays it out perfectly.

If LBJ goes to these places, it's because:

Chicago (winning)
Cleveland (loyalty)
New York (immortality)
Miami (????)

I (and people in the know) have no idea how good or bad the Heat would be with those 3. It would be them and 9 minimum salary guys. They would absolutely have to draft well going forward.

I know everyone thinks this will be the greatest team ever, but who shoots in crunch time? Wade is 28 with a TON of miles on him. Bosh is a solid player, but hardly a superstar. When 2 of the 3 are on the bench, and it's LBJ with 4 stiffs out there, opposing teams are going to go on runs. It feels like a fantasy basketball team turning into reality.

Right now, no one knows anything. LBJ and his circle haven't said anything. I know all the talk is Miami right now, but all the talk last week had it down to the Bulls/Cavs.

My prediction, just a hunch, as people I talk to have no clue any more....he stays in Cleveland.

Didn't the Simmons quote go:

Chicago (winning)
Cleveland (loyalty)
New York (immortality)
Miami (HELP)

[shiloh26]

In the lull while everyone reads that article...

I agree with Simmons.  While I'm very curious to see what the video-game Heat would look like playing together, its ultimately disappointing if LeBron chooses Miami.  He would probably win more with the Bulls (though I still contend the Heat-experiment COULD create the best team, we just KNOW that the Bulls would be great with him), he would become a god if he carried NY to a championship, or he would be forever lauded as the hometown hero if he stayed in Cleveland... probably whether he won one or not, just that he stayed.  Going with the Heat seems like a cop-out.  

[GoldenWarrior]

EDIT: He will always be hated in Cleveland if he does this, I don't mean to imply that he wont.  This is the Fumble and the Drive put together and multiplied by 10 considering the way he is doing it. 

Well we now have "The Fumble" "The Drive" "Red right 88" "The Move" and now "The Decision"... it's most depressing to think that if LeBron, the homegrown super star won't even stay in Cleveland when we can offer him the most money and allow him to stay home, then what the hell do we ever have to look forward to?  Unfortunately, we are who we are... not an attractive market for free agents, usually can't pay more than anyone else, teams are never that good because of this and it's just a painful cycle of misery...

I'm not sure if people outside of Cleveland really understand what sports mean to us Clevelanders and just how much this hurts, yet how stubborn we are because when LeBron announces "Miami" tonight I will inevitably respond "Go Cavs!"  Also, if you think for a second there's another city that has suffered as much as us... you are kidding yourselves!!  Buffalo is the ONLY one even close to us if you ask me, but they don't even have as many sports teams as us!  Having one team that has a drought is one thing (Cubs, Bo Sox for a while, etc), but ALL teams in one city continually landing on misery or jumping onto a spike to kill their chances... it's just cruel.

Sorry to rant, just in a bad place right now, lol...

[HoopsMalone]

Bill Simmons is right on the money.  They are two mid-level exception players away from contending in Miami.  Lebron would be in year number 10 when that happens.  You really cannot just roll the ball out there without other good pieces around you.  And they are considering getting rid of the mid-level anyway.

Wade does not need to be logging these heavy minutes, either.  Looking out for our fellow MU guy is getting lost in this.  We don't want Wade on a team that people root against.  I was probably wrong to say that James won't get ad money, but he is definately going to be rooted against hard in any place but Cleveland.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Agreed on the national level... on the Cleveland fan level and his hometown... he will never be forgiven, even when he's 75...

I spent about 5 years of my life in Cleveland and both parents are from there.  It's a city that surely has fallen on a ton of bad luck for a long time.  But I think the question for him is whether or not he thinks he can win a title in Cleveland.  The problem is that no one wants to go there to help him out.  So if he wants to be one of the greats, he needs to go somewhere where he can win.

Whether Clevelanders forgive him or not, I have a feeling they will.  Everyone leaves Cleveland...Bob Hope, George Steinbrenner, Drew Carey, Halle Berry, Arsenio Hall, etc, etc

Hell, even Thomas Edison left. 

Personally, I love the city.  A ton of character and charm, good people, etc.  But it has a tough rep and people, especially athletes, have not wanted to play there.  In many ways, it reminds me of Milwaukee to some extent.  Nice city, good people, but professional athletes have not wanted to play there and usually try to get out at some point.  They are not "destination" cities for high profile athletes and entertainers.

[ChicosBailBonds]

A lot of you are looking at this Miami thing as if there will only be 3 guys and 9 stiffs.  Miami can go over the cap, if they wish.  They just pay a luxury tax.

Plus, nothing is to say they won't be able to sign some guys that have made $$ and are looking to get a ring, signing for the league minimum.

Pat Riley isn't an idiot. 


Personally, I hope he stays in Cleveland, but I don't think he can win a title in Cleveland because not enough players want to live there.  He can probably win a title in Chicago and I'd say with the right pieces in Miami, could do so also. 

[GoldenWarrior]

The whole "LeBron can't win in Cleveland because other stars don't want to go there" is true only for free agent moves... in normal trades, it doesn't matter wtf the player wants... that falls on the TEAMS agreeing to terms on moving assets in the end.

[jmayer1]

Bill Simmons says:

Some of that isn't exactly true.  If he does go to Miami, they won't have 9 minimum salary guys.  They will still have the midlevel expection (about 5.5 million) and the bi-annual exception (2.0 million).  So that's $7.5 million to sign some guys.  Not sure if they would go after Brendan Haywood with that money or not.  They could also sign numerous guys to very backloaded deals.  In addition, they'll have Chalmers-a guy who is very similar to the guy the Lakers just won the title with starting at point.  They could also have Beasely, depending on whether or not he gets sent somewhere in sign and trade. They also drafted some guys in the second round who could be solid role players (Dexter Pitman, Jarvis Varnado, Da'Sean Butler, Latavious Williams).  However, as someone incorrectly stated before, they will not be able to just sign all of their free agents from last year to go over the cap.  Each of your own team's free agents has a salary cap hold, which is a percentage of their prior-year salary depending on several factors (pay grade, service time).  You cannot go over the cap to sign outside free agents, only your own.  So, in order to sign Lebron, the Heat would have to renounce all or almost all of their free agents, thus giving up their Larry Bird rights and clearing cap space (ie-Jermaine O'Neal counts a certain amount against the cap unless the Heat renounce his rights in order to clear space to sign Bosh, James..etc)

[GoldenWarrior]

A lot of you are looking at this Miami thing as if there will only be 3 guys and 9 stiffs.  Miami can go over the cap, if they wish.  They just pay a luxury tax. 

They can only exceed the cap by signing league minimum contracts though, it's not like they can go and continue to offer MAX contracts to everyone or something...

[HoopsMalone]

 If he does go to Miami, they won't have 9 minimum salary guys.  They will still have the midlevel expection (about 5.5 million) and the bi-annual exception (2.0 million).  So that's $7.5 million to sign some guys.  

I am pretty unclear on the excpetions.  I thought that you had to be over the cap at the START of the free agency period, which means either July 1 or July 8.  That means the Bulls, Heat, and every one in these sweepstakes cannot use an excpetion.  It is an exception because you are over the cap.

Anyone know?

[AlienWarrior]

looks like LeBron will sign with Miami as well

[ChicosBailBonds]

The whole "LeBron can't win in Cleveland because other stars don't want to go there" is true only for free agent moves... in normal trades, it doesn't matter wtf the player wants... that falls on the TEAMS agreeing to terms on moving assets in the end.

Correct, sign and trade type deals.  But then you have the players scrambling to get out of there or sulking and not playing, or even refusing to play.  Unfortunately we've seen this happen now a few times in the NBA and the clubs actually trade these guys again, which I find incredible.

I want nothing more than for Cleveland to win a title, in anything.  They have gone so long.  The Browns were on the doorstep but ran into themselves and that the Broncos.  You had the Brian Sipe's pass that was picked off by the Raiders.   The Cavs had a shot in the 90's but lost to the Bulls despite leading the series going into Cleveland.  The Indians were one out away.  I watched my dad's frustrations for years with his Cleveland teams....he went to the '48 and '54 World Series and I'm sure he thought at the time (he was a kid) that this was going to be routine...unfortunately for Cleveland, it hasn't been.

[HoopsMalone]

GoldenWarrior, I understand where you are coming from.  I cannot imagine if the Blackhawks, Bears, and Bulls all had Bartman moments to add to the actual Bartman moment with the Cubs.  At the end of the day, very few NBA teams will provide the entertainment I have already seen in my life so I am very thankful for the 1990s Bulls no matter what happens.  I'd like another NBA title to clearly put the Bulls into the third greatest NBA franchise spot.  And it would be nice to have a legacy that is not just MJ, if that free agents are worried about filling his shoes.

[Ready2Fly]

They can only exceed the cap by signing league minimum contracts though, it's not like they can go and continue to offer MAX contracts to everyone or something...

Once they reach the cap threshold (which they will if they snag all three), they can sign their own free agents for whatever they want.  So I'm guessing Haslem will stay for some nice coin, then they can bring in two veterans with the exceptions.  The rest will be league minimum garbage, but you only need one to be decent (like Perkins in Boston) for it to work.

[damuts222]

And it would be nice to have a legacy that is not just MJ, if that free agents are worried about filling his shoes.

As a Bulls fan I don't by this BS about free agents such as Wade and Lebron don't want to come to Chicago because their in MJ's shadow. Yes MJ is considered to be the best basketball player in the NBA ever, arguably. But what big market team doesn't have players that cast a shadow. Celtic's (Bird, Russell), Laker's (Magic, Wilt etc.), that whole argument is weak.

[ChicosBailBonds]

They can only exceed the cap by signing league minimum contracts though, it's not like they can go and continue to offer MAX contracts to everyone or something...

The Miami Herald has some interesting comments about this, on what could be done, what options they have, etc.

[Dish]

A lot of you are looking at this Miami thing as if there will only be 3 guys and 9 stiffs.  Miami can go over the cap, if they wish.  They just pay a luxury tax.

Plus, nothing is to say they won't be able to sign some guys that have made $$ and are looking to get a ring, signing for the league minimum.

Pat Riley isn't an idiot.  


Personally, I hope he stays in Cleveland, but I don't think he can win a title in Cleveland because not enough players want to live there.  He can probably win a title in Chicago and I'd say with the right pieces in Miami, could do so also.  

This rarely ever happens and/or works out. Karl Malone and Gary Payton are two great examples.

What decent young player is going to want to go there for LESS money, have a tough time putting up stats, just to get a ring?

Plus everyone is ignoring the white elephant in the room...the CBA is going to change next year. Things are going to change, probably very drastically from what I'm told. It's going to have to be at least 7 minimum salary players if they sign LBJ as well. The luxury tax threshold is going to change, and make it MUCH better for the smaller market clubs that are on life support right now. It's why I said Miami is going to have to draft well coming up in order to succeed long term.

Edit: My bad, I completely forgot Payton was on that Heat (of all teams) title team. Foot in mouth.

[jmayer1]

I am pretty unclear on the excpetions.  I thought that you had to be over the cap at the START of the free agency period, which means either July 1 or July 8.  That means the Bulls, Heat, and every one in these sweepstakes cannot use an excpetion.  It is an exception because you are over the cap.

Anyone know?

I was mistaken.  The exceptions are only available if you are already over the cap.  However, if you are under the cap, they are added to your existing contracts to determine your cap space.  So, for example, if the mid-level exception was $5.5 million, the bi-annual was $2 million, Wade signed for approx $19 million, and Bosh signed for approx $18 million (just ballparking these figures), Chalmers is signed for $847k, and Beasely for $4.962 million, the Heat's total cap amount would be $50.309 million.  To sign James, they would have to renounce both the exceptions ($7.5 million), unload Beasely ($4.962 million), and not take back any salary in return.  Then their cap number would be around $37.85 million and they woluld have room to sign James under the salary cap of $58.044 million.  Unless, these guys each give up some money, which is not likely to happen.  As it stands now, they each might have to give up some cash as I'm not exactly sure what the max for each guy is.  Then, it would literally be those 3 and 9 minimum guys, as the Heat would have to match salaries in any sign and trade since they would be over the cap.

Here is a great salary cap website:

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#Q20

[MUBurrow]

As a Bulls fan I don't by this BS about free agents such as Wade and Lebron don't want to come to Chicago because their in MJ's shadow. Yes MJ is considered to be the best basketball player in the NBA ever, arguably. But what big market team doesn't have players that cast a shadow. Celtic's (Bird, Russell), Laker's (Magic, Wilt etc.), that whole argument is weak.

It might not be the only reason, but if I considered myself possibly the best basketball player on the history of the planet, i would want to be recognized as such.  Won't happen in Chi.  (sure as hell wont happen by joining DWades team either).  That's why NY is the perfect choice.  Definitely where I would go.  You somehow have one of the most historic, passionate basketball fanbases in the country without having to live up to major stars in the upper echelon of NBA lore.  Its the perfect storm of everything you want to walk into in an nba franchise (history/fan etc wise anyway) but it somehow has happened in what is essentially a vacuum of stars.

[HoopsMalone]

Brendan Haywood to Dallas and Jermaine O'Neal to Boston.  Brad Miller and Shaq are the only two centers left.  Bulls should sign back Miller (which he has said he wanted to I think).  

With just Bosh upfront, the Heat are in trouble inside.  I am shocked actually that the heat did not got for Haywood.  He would be perfect to mesh with Bosh's game I think.

[GoldenWarrior]

Correct, sign and trade type deals.  But then you have the players scrambling to get out of there or sulking and not playing, or even refusing to play.  Unfortunately we've seen this happen now a few times in the NBA and the clubs actually trade these guys again, which I find incredible.

I want nothing more than for Cleveland to win a title, in anything.  They have gone so long.  The Browns were on the doorstep but ran into themselves and that the Broncos.  You had the Brian Sipe's pass that was picked off by the Raiders.   The Cavs had a shot in the 90's but lost to the Bulls despite leading the series going into Cleveland.  The Indians were one out away.  I watched my dad's frustrations for years with his Cleveland teams....he went to the '48 and '54 World Series and I'm sure he thought at the time (he was a kid) that this was going to be routine...unfortunately for Cleveland, it hasn't been.

Yes, Cleveland has had plenty of great opportunities and have fallen on bad luck, just fell short talent wise, etc etc.  It's painful the look back on it all and realize that the last time we had a Champion was in 1964 with Jim Brown leading the Cleveland Browns to the title... but not even a damn Super Bowl title because the first one hadn't even been played yet!!!

[Canadian Dimes]

i think most of you guys are completely wrong on this ....with the three guys of bosh, wade and LBJ alot of others players will want to play with them and will sign for less money to win a title.  see ron artest.  Also Boston recent won a title with a big three that pale in comparison to what miami will have a 9 other "stiffs".  lastly what makes everyone assume Miami will stand pat if they get Lebron....my guess is they have been reading MuScoop and realize they need other peices