Maybe MU should Not Be In The Big East Anymore

[Tugg Speedman]

The posts this week are really discerning.

MU is a big-time basketball program in a big-time conference.  The players are their team are not helpless Children.  They have to constantly earn their spots.  I have to believe the top of the roster is happy that Buzz is getting them players.  The bottom of the roster has to get better or move on.  This is the way things SHOULD be.

Newbill (and Roseboro before him) were never going to amount to much.  Yes, they might have been recruiting mistakes.  Their is nothing wrong with making mistakes as long as they are corrected.  Buzz correct these mistakes.  (same with Mbao).  The mistake would have been having 25% of the roster (Roseboro, Newbill and Mbao) as "dead money" for the next three years.  This could have killed the program.

All are going to be fine.  Roseboro is at St. Bonnies, a fine school, Newbiill has offers and Mbao will be OK.  Buzz was right in doing what he did.  Further, if another Jamil Wilson type of transfer called him today, he SHOULD "make room" for him as well.

If you think this is wrong, then maybe Mike Deane was correct all along.  Maybe we can switch with Butler.  They can go into the Big East, we can go into the Horizon league.  Then we can strive from every player staying four years, never having a transfer or a recruit backing out and completely suck.  Would that make you happy?

--------

Added later ... If Buzz passed on Jamil to honor is commitment to Newbill, would that have been a "slap in the face" to Butler, DJO, Blue, Crowder etc?  They expect Buzz to get the best possible players for them to work with.  If Buzz is going to allow marginal players to take up space for four years, and pass on someone like Wilson, the top of the roster would be right to question their commitment to MU.

[TJ]

I'd love to have been Butler last year, that's for sure.  If that's "completely suck", sign me up.

[Tugg Speedman]

I'd love to have been Butler last year, that's for sure.  If that's "completely suck", sign me up.

No Butler goes into the BE and we get to compete with UWGB, Loyola, and UWM.

[MerrittsMustache]

I'd love to have been Butler last year, that's for sure.  If that's "completely suck", sign me up.

Newbill would have made the half-court heave to win it.

[TJ]

The posts this week are really discerning.

MU is a big-time basketball program in a big-time conference.  The players are their team are not helpless Children.  They have to constantly earn their spots.  I have to believe the top of the roster is happy that Buzz is getting them players.  The bottom of the roster has to get better or move on.  This is the way things SHOULD be.

Newbill (and Roseboro before him) were never going to amount to much.  Yes, they might have been recruiting mistakes.  Their is nothing wrong with making mistakes as long as they are corrected.  Buzz correct these mistakes.  (same with Mbao).  The mistake would have been having 25% of the roster (Roseboro, Newbill and Mbao) as "dead money" for the next three years.  This could have killed the program.

All are going to be fine.  Roseboro is at St. Bonnies, a fine school, Newbiill has offers and Mbao will be OK.  Buzz was right in doing what he did.  Further, if another Jamil Wilson type of transfer called him today, he SHOULD "make room" for him as well.

If you think this is wrong, then maybe Mike Deane was correct all along.  Maybe we can switch with Butler.  They can go into the Big East, we can go into the Horizon league.  Then we can strive from every player staying four years, never having a transfer or a recruit backing out and completely suck.  Would that make you happy?

--------

Added later ... If Buzz passed on Jamil to honor is commitment to Newbill, would that have been a "slap in the face" to Butler, DJO, Blue, Crowder etc?  They expect Buzz to get the best possible players for them to work with.  If Buzz is going to allow marginal players to take up space for four years, and pass on someone like Wilson, the top of the roster would be right to question their commitment to MU.

Ok, a more serious reply...  What happens if for some crazy hypothetical reason Kyrie Irving is available today and is just begging to come to MU.  Do you think it would be ok to tell Reggie Smith that his NLI will no longer be honored and offer the resulting available scholarship to Kyrie?

I do not.

[Tugg Speedman]

Ok, a more serious reply...  What happens if for some crazy hypothetical reason Kyrie Irving is available today and is just begging to come to MU.  Do you think it would be ok to tell Reggie Smith that his NLI will no longer be honored and offer the resulting available scholarship to Kyrie?

I do not.

... and when Crowder, DJO JJ and Blue demand to know from Buzz why they don't get to play with Irving, what do you tell them?  And when they question Buzz's commitment to winning because he passes on a guy like Irving, how do you tell them they are wrong?

If you pass on Irving don't you insult the rest of the team?

So, I say you take him.

[TJ]

... and when Crowder, DJO JJ and Blue demand to know from Buzz why they don't get to play with Irving, what do you tell them?  And when they question Buzz's commitment to winning because he passes on a guy like Irving, how do you tell them they are wrong?

If you pass on Irving don't you insult the rest of the team?

So, I say you take him.

I say that would absolutely go against both contract law and everything that both MU and Buzz seems to stand for.  How do you tell anyone that your word means anything if you are willing to drop it as soon as something better comes along?

[Tugg Speedman]

I say that would absolutely go against both contract law and everything that both MU and Buzz seems to stand for.  How do you tell anyone that your word means anything if you are willing to drop it as soon as something better comes along?

I thought Buzz stood for being the best you can be.  Wouldn't passing on Irving (staying with our hypothetical) be going against everything Buzz stands for?

... and what do you mean "going against contract law?"  Are you saying that Buzz broke the law or NCCA rules?  I don't think that happened at all.  You're reaching with this statement.

[bilsu]

I disagree with the idea that Newbill was never going to amount to much. He probably would have been last in our current guard lineup, but I suspect that is more of a reflection on how good our current guards are than a reflection on how bad Newbill is. Buzz did not go through all of this to try and keep a player that was not going to be good.

[TJ]

I thought Buzz stood for being the best you can be.  Wouldn't passing on Irving (staying with our hypothetical) be going against everything Buzz stands for?

Ok, so it would go against 90% of what Buzz stands for.  How many times has he stated that it's more important to develop good people, being honest, truthful, etc.  Not honoring a commitment you made to a kid would have to qualify as going against that.

... and what do you mean "going against contract law?"  Are you saying that Buzz broke the law or NCCA rules?  I don't think that happened at all.  You're reaching with this statement.

I'm talking about our little hypothetical - if we were to cut Reggie Smith right now, assuming everything else is in line, he has a NLI, he has applied, he's been accepted, etc.  In that case how could you argue that MU was not breaking the NLI contract?

[Tugg Speedman]

Ok, so it would go against 90% of what Buzz stands for.  How many times has he stated that it's more important to develop good people, being honest, truthful, etc.  Not honoring a commitment you made to a kid would have to qualify as going against that.

So we are assuming that IWB's post is not accurate.  If Buzz warned Newbill that he was trying to recruit over him and came anyway, does this matter?

I'm talking about our little hypothetical - if we were to cut Reggie Smith right now, assuming everything else is in line, he has a NLI, he has applied, he's been accepted, etc.  In that case how could you argue that MU was not breaking the NLI contract?

You're assuming that Reggie is the next guy on the bubble.  What if it was EW that was asked to leave?  Does that change things?  For months Buzz has been recruiting 2010 recruits.  We have been rumoring someone was going to prep school since May.  This was not out of the blue.

I look at it differently than you.  Buzz has a commitment to the top of the roster.  Loading up the bottom of the roster with dead weight denies them opportunity.  It sends a bad message to the top of the roster.

[mr.MUskie]

I say that would absolutely go against both contract law and everything that both MU and Buzz seems to stand for.  How do you tell anyone that your word means anything if you are willing to drop it as soon as something better comes along?

Happens a thousand times every day.  It's called "divorce".

[TJ]

So we are assuming that IWB's post is not accurate.  If Buzz warned Newbill that he was trying to recruit over him and came anyway, does this matter?

You're assuming that Reggie is the next guy on the bubble.  What if it was EW that was asked to leave?  Does that change things?  For months Buzz has been recruiting 2010 recruits.  We have been rumoring someone was going to prep school since May.  This was not out of the blue.

I look at it differently than you.  Buzz has a commitment to the top of the roster.  Loading up the bottom of the roster with dead weight denies them opportunity.  It sends a bad message to the top of the roster.

We're talking about a hypothetical unrelated to any of this.  The #3 recruit in the nation is available and wants to come to MU, but all scholarships are taken.  The low guy on the totem poll signed a NLI, he has everything in order, he's been accepted by MU, etc.  There has been absolutely no talk from anyone about prep school, conditions, etc.  Not a single problem except he's not as good as someone else who wants to play for MU.  Do you dump a recruit and decide not to honor his 100% valid NLI to allow the #3 recruit in the nation to go to MU?

The next guy on the bubble doesn't matter, you could replace Reggie with any other incoming recruit with a NLI.  It has to be a recruit and not EW because there are differences between how recruits and returning players are handled, notably that Buzz has the right to not renew any returning scholarship every year.

We do look at it differently.  I think Buzz has a commitment to all the players and incoming recruits, not just the ones at the top of the roster.

[TJ]

Happens a thousand times every day.  It's called "divorce".

100% completely different situation in every single possible way.

Also, that doesn't make it right the 1001st time.

[Tom Crean's Tanning Bed]

The posts this week are really discerning.

MU is a big-time basketball program in a big-time conference.  The players are their team are not helpless Children.  They have to constantly earn their spots.  I have to believe the top of the roster is happy that Buzz is getting them players.  The bottom of the roster has to get better or move on.  This is the way things SHOULD be.

Newbill (and Roseboro before him) were never going to amount to much.  Yes, they might have been recruiting mistakes.  Their is nothing wrong with making mistakes as long as they are corrected.  Buzz correct these mistakes.  (same with Mbao).  The mistake would have been having 25% of the roster (Roseboro, Newbill and Mbao) as "dead money" for the next three years.  This could have killed the program.

All are going to be fine.  Roseboro is at St. Bonnies, a fine school, Newbiill has offers and Mbao will be OK.  Buzz was right in doing what he did.  Further, if another Jamil Wilson type of transfer called him today, he SHOULD "make room" for him as well.

If you think this is wrong, then maybe Mike Deane was correct all along.  Maybe we can switch with Butler.  They can go into the Big East, we can go into the Horizon league.  Then we can strive from every player staying four years, never having a transfer or a recruit backing out and completely suck.  Would that make you happy?

--------

Added later ... If Buzz passed on Jamil to honor is commitment to Newbill, would that have been a "slap in the face" to Butler, DJO, Blue, Crowder etc?  They expect Buzz to get the best possible players for them to work with.  If Buzz is going to allow marginal players to take up space for four years, and pass on someone like Wilson, the top of the roster would be right to question their commitment to MU.

Not sure if I 100% agree with everything specifically here (and I think you do need some marginal guys here and there that are willing to work their ass off in practice and give you spot contributions), but your general sentiment is dead on.

We're playing with the big boys club now.  We may not like how it has to be done, and we're certainly have no right to every smidgen of detail regarding everything that goes on behind the scenes.  And I think that's what a lot of posters on this board need to come to the realization of.  College recruiting, especially when you're dealing with the level of prospects we're now on the plane of starting to get finally (Blue, Wilson, etc.) is an uglier ballgame than we want to admit to ourselves.

Right now, whether we like it or not, oversigning is a legal tactic.  Is it ethical to oversign?  That's certainly up to debate amongst us, but if the coach and the player clearly agreed to, understand the circumstances around the oversigning, and, the potential consequences, I believe they have every right to enter into that agreement, regardless of what we may think.

I certainly feel for DJ Newbill, and I'm certain Buzz wishes things could be handled slightly differently.  I do know that DJ Newbill is a talented kid that will end up on his feet, and I'm confident that Marquette will do him right and help him find a landing spot. Sorry if that's what some call on this board the sanitized, rosy-colored, MU-PR view, but until the day where that doesn't happen, I'm standing by this post.

[Clarence]

We're talking about a hypothetical unrelated to any of this.  The #3 recruit in the nation is available and wants to come to MU, but all scholarships are taken.  The low guy on the totem poll signed a NLI, he has everything in order, he's been accepted by MU, etc.  There has been absolutely no talk from anyone about prep school, conditions, etc.  Not a single problem except he's not as good as someone else who wants to play for MU.  Do you dump a recruit and decide not to honor his 100% valid NLI to allow the #3 recruit in the nation to go to MU?

The next guy on the bubble doesn't matter, you could replace Reggie with any other incoming recruit with a NLI.  It has to be a recruit and not EW because there are differences between how recruits and returning players are handled, notably that Buzz has the right to not renew any returning scholarship every year.

We do look at it differently.  I think Buzz has a commitment to all the players and incoming recruits, not just the ones at the top of the roster.

Yes, Buzz' job is to win basketball games, Period.   

[Windyplayer]

Who's fresh off their 1L year and can explain the intricacies of contracts?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Simple question....is it possible to win in the Big East and still be ethical, honor commitments, etc?


Thanks

[TJ]

Yes, Buzz' job is to win basketball games, Period.   

I think many, if not most here would argue that there's more to it than simply winning.  And even if that's untrue, I believe the administration would think there's more to Buzz' job than just winning.

[copious1218]

Simple question....is it possible to win in the Big East and still be ethical, honor commitments, etc?


Thanks

Agreed - winning and ethics are not mutually exclusive.  Note: This is not a judgment on the current situation as I have no idea what actually transpired between the athletic department and DJ's inner circle.

[MUfan12]

Note: This is not a judgment on the current situation as I have no idea what actually transpired between the athletic department and DJ's inner circle.

THANK YOU. None of us do. I can reasonably guess its somewhere in the middle of each story we've heard.

Chicos- If you have any inside info on this, spill it. Because all you're doing now is regurgitating the talking points of one side of this story. A lot. I'd be willing to bet the majority here are freaking tired of reading it.

[Clarence]

Amended:

Buzz' job is to win basketball games within the rules of the NCAA.

Guys, an in state talent that we have been after for years decided that he wanted to transfer to our team.  To get him we had cut a 3 star kid from Pennsylvania, that signed with us late and with possible contingencies.    

It sucks for Newbill, but we're not playing T-Ball here.  Not everyone is going to get a trophy.  

Buzz is a good guy, but he's also a highly competitive SOB.  He had an opportunity to make his team better and he took it.  

[SacWarrior]

Why not just fire Buzz? Forget all he's done to win ten games in the Big East in his first two years. Forget making the tournament twice in two years. Forget taking a 7-man deep team, whose tallest player was 6'6" and taking them to a 5 seed.

Buzz didn't make this kid's dream come true. He put the good of the team ahead of a mediocre recruit's future as a member of a team he would probably never significantly play for.

Newbill (and Jody O'Brien) was never Marquette material, and the mistake was taking him in the first place. He sounds like a great kid and I think he'll end up at Temple, a school where he can get significant playing time and make a real difference.

[TJ]

Amended:

Buzz' job is to win basketball games within the rules of the NCAA.

Guys, an in state talent that we have been after for years decided that he wanted to transfer to our team.  To get him we had cut a 3 star kid from Pennsylvania, that signed with us late and with possible contingencies.    

It sucks for Newbill, but we're not playing T-Ball here.  Not everyone is going to get a trophy.  

Buzz is a good guy, but he's also a highly competitive SOB.  He had an opportunity to make his team better and he took it.  

Why not just fire Buzz? Forget all he's done to win ten games in the Big East in his first two years. Forget making the tournament twice in two years. Forget taking a 7-man deep team, whose tallest player was 6'6" and taking them to a 5 seed.

Buzz didn't make this kid's dream come true. He put the good of the team ahead of a mediocre recruit's future as a member of a team he would probably never significantly play for.

Newbill (and Jody O'Brien) was never Marquette material, and the mistake was taking him in the first place. He sounds like a great kid and I think he'll end up at Temple, a school where he can get significant playing time and make a real difference.

So, for both of you, in the hypothetical above you have no problem with dumping/buzzcutting the next lowest level recruit with a signed NLI for no other reason than because he's not as good a basketball player.

Which means that you do not place value on MU following through and honoring the commitments that it makes to it's recruits.

It also means that you should have had absolutely no problem whatsoever with what Tyshawn Taylor did two years ago because he simply had an offer available to him from a better basketball program.  And you would have no problem if Jones decided to not honor his NLI because a spot opened up at UCLA.  If it's ok for MU, it should be ok for the recruits right?

[Clarence]

Correct.