It Took Until About Day 821,,,

[Litehouse]

What would people say if they found out Wilson wanted to transfer here and MU simply said "no thanks?"  I'm guessing a lot of the people trying to take the high road by criticizing Buzz would also be the ones complaining that we blew an opportunity with Wilson and instead added to our logjam of guards/wings.  Which one is it?

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.  That's why Buzz gets paid the big bucks.

[martyconlonontherun]

What would people say if they found out Wilson wanted to transfer here and MU simply said "no thanks?"  I'm guessing a lot of the people trying to take the high road by criticizing Buzz would also be the ones complaining that we blew an opportunity with Wilson and instead added to our logjam of guards/wings.  Which one is it?

I think people would understand that it was logistically impossible since most people view contracts as guaranteed and once they are signed they are screwed.

Also, I think people are too much on the extremes. You have people making threads about if this was a fireable offense and others saying I absolutely trust Buzz was completely honest and did everything 100% by the books (the same people who would say Bo is the devil for the same thing)

Buzz made a tough choice. I don't blame him for doing it, but I'm definitely not proud to bring up the Wilson transfer to alumns of different schools.

[Lennys Tap]

I'm in Buzz's corner as well, he just made a bad mistake here.  I certainly don't want him fired but I'd like someone at MU to say this crosses the line.

We seem to have made a shift in the last few years with a Go For Broke mentality and are doing some things we  did not do in the past. 

I was dismayed when Buzz went off on Mac after the Georgetown game, there's no doubt he made a mistake on Roseboro and I wish he would have never let DJ sign a LOI. That said, I think he's a remarkable guy whose had a terrific first 821 days at Marquette. In spite of  what you have written I have never "polished his knob" nor do I view him as a saint or a god. I am, however, firmly in his corner.

You probably have 750-1000 posts relating to Buzz from his hiring until today. If Buzz wanted to totally waste a day and read them all, think he'd come to the conclusion that you're "in his corner"? If the way you've reacted to his hiring, his coaching and his recruiting is your definition of being "in his corner" please stay out of mine.

[tower912]

mistakes buzz has made:    Made a premature judgement on Roseboro's ability.   Thought he could control Tim Maymon.  Overreacted in the heat of the moment to a question.    Took a flyer on a 7'2 player.   Continued to recruit over a player who signed a NLI after (maybe) telling him he was going to.       If I can go 27 months and only make that many (gasp! horrible!) mistakes, I feel pretty damned good about myself. 

[79Warrior]

Hey, I'm in Buzz's corner. But, can we all agree, at the very least he's exercised poor judgment on several occasions? He's young and so I expect he'll learn from these experiences.

Considering no one knows any of the facts, just a stupid post. You have no clue what judgement was used considering you (we) know absolutely nothing but rumor and inuendo.

[MUSF]

Considering no one knows any of the facts, just a stupid post. You have no clue what judgement was used considering you (we) know absolutely nothing but rumor and inuendo.

We do know that 3 different parties feel that they have been wronged by Buzz during his tenure at MU.  We also know that there are people affiliated with UNO that feel the same way.  These facts are, at best, indicators of poor communication and/or poor judgement.

This is a problem that needs to be addressed and corrected. 

[tower912]

Which 3 parties?   Roseboro never criticized Buzz, his coaches did.   Tim Maymon being upset about the offense not being run through his son who was playing a post by default?    Really?   You would even consider that as a rational complaint?    Big Mac for Buzz getting upset with him?    No.    I count 1 with a possible legitimate gripe.   

[MUSF]

Which 3 parties?   Roseboro never criticized Buzz, his coaches did.   Tim Maymon being upset about the offense not being run through his son who was playing a post by default?    Really?   You would even consider that as a rational complaint?    Big Mac for Buzz getting upset with him?    No.    I count 1 with a possible legitimate gripe.   

Which 3 parties?

Uhhhh... you just named them.

You can dismiss them all as irrational or unjustified if you want to, but the fact remains that they perceived to have been wronged by Buzz.  To me that indicates a communication problem or an error in judgement for recruting Roseboro, dealing with the Maymons, and failing to see the potential fall out in rescinding a signed offer.

Am I missing something?  Three instances, four if you count UNO, makes a trend in my view.  Time for Buzz to take a look in the mirror and see what he can do to prevent these types of things from happening in the future.

[Litehouse]

I don't think Mac ever felt he was "wronged" by Buzz.  Mac went out of his way to say he didn't think it was a big deal and graciously accepted Buzz's apology.

[MUSF]

I don't think Mac ever felt he was "wronged" by Buzz.  Mac went out of his way to say he didn't think it was a big deal and graciously accepted Buzz's apology.

I never mentioned Mac.

[Litehouse]

Well then I would like to graciously apologize.  I took it out of context from your quoted portion.  My bad.

[Lennys Tap]

We do know that 3 different parties feel that they have been wronged by Buzz during his tenure at MU.  We also know that there are people affiliated with UNO that feel the same way.  These facts are, at best, indicators of poor communication and/or poor judgement.

This is a problem that needs to be addressed and corrected. 

We know that more than 100 million people feel wronged by both Pres. Bush and Pres. Obama. The only thing this "fact" is indicative of is that people feel wronged when they don't get what they want. Sometimes they've got a legit beef. Most times they don't. One thing is constant: they'll be no shortage of people making judgements without the facts.

[RawdogDX]

Chicos got a hard on

Do you have firsthand knowledge of the situation?

[MUSF]

We know that more than 100 million people feel wronged by both Pres. Bush and Pres. Obama. The only thing this "fact" is indicative of is that people feel wronged when they don't get what they want. Sometimes they've got a legit beef. Most times they don't. One thing is constant: they'll be no shortage of people making judgements without the facts.

This is a stretch and you know it.  

How many people have had personal interaction with the president?  How many people have sat down one on one with Obama and made a personal agreement with him?  Your analogy is weak.

I'm not naieve enough to believe that what Buzz did doesn't go on at a lot of schools but I don't remember many instances where former players, recruits, parents, or high school coaches made it a public issue.  To me, that indicates a problem.  Maybe it is a PR problem but it is still a problem.

[pbiflyer]

I'm in Buzz's corner as well, he just made a bad mistake here.  I certainly don't want him fired but I'd like someone at MU to say this crosses the line.

We seem to have made a shift in the last few years with a Go For Broke mentality and are doing some things we  did not do in the past. 

Wow, if that is how you are in someone's corners, please, please never ever be in my corner.

[Pakuni]

Which 3 parties?

Uhhhh... you just named them.

You can dismiss them all as irrational or unjustified if you want to, but the fact remains that they perceived to have been wronged by Buzz.  To me that indicates a communication problem or an error in judgement for recruting Roseboro, dealing with the Maymons, and failing to see the potential fall out in rescinding a signed offer.

Am I missing something?  Three instances, four if you count UNO, makes a trend in my view.  Time for Buzz to take a look in the mirror and see what he can do to prevent these types of things from happening in the future.

So, we should be worrying ourselves over people who feel "wronged" by Buzz, whether such feeling is justified or not? Really?
IMO, Newbill may very well be justified. Roseboro and Maymom? C'mon.
Buzz ultimately did Roseboro a favor with the way he handled his departure. Are we really going to start bashing coaches for hurting players' feelings every time they make a recruiting mistake? Is there a coach out there that doesn't make recruiting mistakes?
And Maymon ... well, I'm not sure what to say about that other than I'm not sure why anyone would fret over the hurt feelings of a freshman whose daddy thought the offense should run through him.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Wow, if that is how you are in someone's corners, please, please never ever be in my corner.

Why, you want nothing but yes men in your life?  Sorry, tough love and critical evaluation are important.

[bilsu]

I do not think Roseboro was run off by Buzz. There was room on the team for him and coaches want enough players to practice. Now, Buzz might have run off Roseboro after the freshman year was completed if he stayed. That may or may not have happen to Mbao, we will never know for sure. But it does not make sense for Buzz to run Roseboro off before the season. But on the other hand this Newbill thing does not make sense either. Maybe Buzz really thought Newbill was going to prep school and he ran Mbao off so Wilson could have Mbao's spot. At this point nobody really knows what the hell was Buzz thinking.

[tower912]

Which 3 parties?

Uhhhh... you just named them.

You can dismiss them all as irrational or unjustified if you want to, but the fact remains that they perceived to have been wronged by Buzz.  To me that indicates a communication problem or an error in judgement for recruting Roseboro, dealing with the Maymons, and failing to see the potential fall out in rescinding a signed offer.

Am I missing something?  Three instances, four if you count UNO, makes a trend in my view.  Time for Buzz to take a look in the mirror and see what he can do to prevent these types of things from happening in the future.

Perceiving being wronged by Buzz does not equal being wronged by Buzz.  Roseboro ended up in a program more in line with his abilities and Tim Maymon chas no credibility.   Ours is a litigous society, so if, theoretically, Buzz was put on trial for his behavior toward Roseboro or Maymon, would they have a case?   IMO, by any  reasonable standard, Buzz is clean on those two. 

[MUSF]

So, we should be worrying ourselves over people who feel "wronged" by Buzz, whether such feeling is justified or not? Really?
IMO, Newbill may very well be justified. Roseboro and Maymom? C'mon.
Buzz ultimately did Roseboro a favor with the way he handled his departure. Are we really going to start bashing coaches for hurting players' feelings every time they make a recruiting mistake? Is there a coach out there that doesn't make recruiting mistakes?
And Maymon ... well, I'm not sure what to say about that other than I'm not sure why anyone would fret over the hurt feelings of a freshman whose daddy thought the offense should run through him.

It's not about the results or the individuals, it's about the potential of developing the general perception that Buzz and MU push the ethical boundries and habitually say one thing and do another when dealing with recruits.  The Maymons are crazy and I don't really care about their feelings but I'm not sure Buzz should have gotten involved with them when so many others chose to stay away.  Hell, I don't really feel that bad for Newbill.  He will soon get the opportunity to earn a college degree for playing a game.  Not a bad deal.

All I am saying is that Buzz and MU should look in the mirror and figure out what they need to do to keep this from happening in the future.  Is that such a big deal?

[El Duderino]

It's not about the results or the individuals, it's about the potential of developing the general perception that Buzz and MU push the ethical boundries and habitually say one thing and do another when dealing with recruits.  The Maymons are crazy and I don't really care about their feelings but I'm not sure Buzz should have gotten involved with them when so many others chose to stay away.  Hell, I don't really feel that bad for Newbill.  He will soon get the opportunity to earn a college degree for playing a game.  Not a bad deal.

All I am saying is that Buzz and MU should look in the mirror and figure out what they need to do to keep this from happening in the future. 

That's where i'm at with this whole issue.

I'm not going crazy over this, but don't like at all how it looks either. My sincere hope is this was simply a case of Buzz trying to hard to make the program strong on the court and in the process maybe lost his moral compass a bit. Hopefully Buzz learned a lesson from this situation and thus something similar never arises again.

If so, then i can give Buzz a pass on this and chalk it up to a zealous young first time head coach who might have let the pressure of big time college athletics get him to do something that in retrospect he wishes he had handled differently overall. If though this situation is something that going forward shows to have not been an isolated incident, but instead a pattern in how Buzz deals with recruits, then i'll quickly start losing the strong respect i had developed for coach Williams and i'll also have a hard time believing his proclamations about how much he cares about the kids compared to just wanting to win. 

Just like sometimes student athletes make mistakes and so long as it's not something involving say violence against someone else, i generally am one to prefer not condemning them to harshly, coaches can make mistakes also. They are human and the pressures of big time college athletics is intense. It's when coaches don't learn from mistakes and are content with conducting themselves like sleazeballs 24/7 if it results in wins that i can no longer respect them. I'm not there with Buzz and really hope i never get there because i like the man.

[MUSF]

That's where i'm at with this whole issue.

I'm not going crazy over this, but don't like at all how it looks either. My sincere hope is this was simply a case of Buzz trying to hard to make the program strong on the court and in the process maybe lost his moral compass a bit. Hopefully Buzz learned a lesson from this situation and thus something similar never arises again.

If so, then i can give Buzz a pass on this and chalk it up to a zealous young first time head coach who might have let the pressure of big time college athletics get him to do something that in retrospect he wishes he had handled differently overall. If though this situation is something that going forward shows to have not been an isolated incident, but instead a pattern in how Buzz deals with recruits, then i'll quickly start losing the strong respect i had developed for coach Williams and i'll also have a hard time believing his proclamations about how much he cares about the kids compared to just wanting to win. 

Just like sometimes student athletes make mistakes and so long as it's not something involving say violence against someone else, i generally am one to prefer not condemning them to harshly, coaches can make mistakes also. They are human and the pressures of big time college athletics is intense. It's when coaches don't learn from mistakes and are content with conducting themselves like sleazeballs 24/7 if it results in wins that i can no longer respect them. I'm not there with Buzz and really hope i never get there because i like the man.

Careful.  Ners will probably want to ban you for this.  Constructive critcism and any amount of scrutiny means you have an agenda.

But seriously, you and I are on the exact same page here.  I know it's a little complicated for some to grasp but this is exactly what I have been trying to say.

[Pakuni]

It's not about the results or the individuals, it's about the potential of developing the general perception that Buzz and MU push the ethical boundries and habitually say one thing and do another when dealing with recruits.  The Maymons are crazy and I don't really care about their feelings but I'm not sure Buzz should have gotten involved with them when so many others chose to stay away.  Hell, I don't really feel that bad for Newbill.  He will soon get the opportunity to earn a college degree for playing a game.  Not a bad deal.

All I am saying is that Buzz and MU should look in the mirror and figure out what they need to do to keep this from happening in the future.  Is that such a big deal?

Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Where you see three occurrences that form some kind of pattern of behavior, real or perceived, I see three individual cases, each with unique circumstances, timelines, causes and outcomes.

It's not a big deal that you think MU shouldn't do this again. I agree completely. I've said, repeatedly, that this was a bad way of going about the business of recruiting college basketball players.
At the same time, the histrionics we've seen here about how Buzz Williams ruined a young man's life, how Marquette is now one of "those" programs, how the university's Jesuit values have been torn asunder, etc., are maddeningly over the top, particularly coming from people who don't know exactly what happened and why (and I'm not claiming I know any more than they do, just that I'm willing to admit I don't know exactly what happened and why) . I'm not accusing you of being of that mindset, but certainly plenty others around here appear to be.

[MUSF]

Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Where you see three occurrences that form some kind of pattern of behavior, real or perceived, I see three individual cases, each with unique circumstances, timelines, causes and outcomes.

It's not a big deal that you think MU shouldn't do this again. I agree completely. I've said, repeatedly, that this was a bad way of going about the business of recruiting college basketball players.
At the same time, the histrionics we've seen here about how Buzz Williams ruined a young man's life, how Marquette is now one of "those" programs, how the university's Jesuit values have been torn asunder, etc., are maddeningly over the top, particularly coming from people who don't know exactly what happened and why (and I'm not claiming I know any more than they do, just that I'm willing to admit I don't know exactly what happened and why) . I'm not accusing you of being of that mindset, but certainly plenty others around here appear to be.

I actually think we agree more than you think.  Coincidentally, I may be doing a poor job effectively communicating my point.

I also see each individual case and give Buzz the benefit of the doubt.  However, I do believe that each of these individual cases could give outsiders a perception that MU is pushing the ethical boundries.  Because of that, I would hope that MU and Buzz take a good look at how they can prevent these cases from popping up in the future.  That could be accomplished in a number of ways and I don't think it needs to be made public.

Can we agree that it might be a good idea for MU and Buzz to re-evaluate some of his recruiting practices? 

The solution may be as simple as communicating better or a little more clear cut like not taking risks on guys with baggage like Maymon or not allowing the practice of over-sigining.  I choose to give Buzz the benefit of the doubt and will chalk this up to communication issues.  I don't really see an issue with over-signing if all parties know what they are getting into. 

[NersEllenson]

Can we agree that it might be a good idea for MU and Buzz to re-evaluate some of his recruiting practices? 

The solution may be as simple as communicating better or a little more clear cut like not taking risks on guys with baggage like Maymon or not allowing the practice of over-sigining.  I choose to give Buzz the benefit of the doubt and will chalk this up to communication issues.  I don't really see an issue with over-signing if all parties know what they are getting into. 

Yes - let's ask Buzz to re-evaluate his recruiting practices so we can return to the Mike Deane years - or even Tom Crean years where we have 4 talented players on a roster of 13 - but after that basically mid-major talent.

So you don't have an issue with oversigning if all parties know what they are getting into?  And how do you know that the Newbill's side didn't know what they were getting into?  Here - I'll answer why:  Because you are choosing to believe the Newbill's side of the story, rather than Buzz's and MU's.  If DJ lands at a High Major program..it will be evidence he has high major talent...if he lands in a mid-major..it will be evidence he has mid-major talent (at this present time.).  We all know DJ was a strtech recruit..and we all know it seems plausible a year in prep school could help a tweener prospect like DJ.  We all know that by NLI'ing DJ, other teams couldn't contact him while under NLI..and it would give MU the best chance at signing him out of prep school...

As I've said i don't like this recruiting practice, as it leaves the door open for the type of "misunderstanding"we have curently going on between the Newbills and Buzz...but I am not going to continue to cruciy and indict Buzz Williams over this matter..and dredge up the University of New Orleans (who are now a Division 3 program..because they couldn't fund the program to  make it a Division 1 program)..which is why Buzz left in the first place...the fact you bring up that scenari is why I have a bullseye on you...you are going out of your way to grasp at straws to try to tear down teh guy who is on the verge of bringing your beloved MU basketball team to GREAT heights.  Talk about a lack of gratitude.