Bait and Switch. U of New Orleans, Roseboro, Maymon, now Newbill?

[ChicosBailBonds]

What about the Tyshaun Taylor situation?  Shouldn't he have honored his commitment to us as well?
This has become a business and should be treated as such; isn't a letter of intent a precursor to a contract?

Yes he should have....are you arguing moral equivalency?   Billy did it down the street so I should be able to?

[CAINMUTINY]

It was an incomplete and ultimately faulty argument.  It is a messy business and hopefully we don't get our hands too dirty on the way to the top.

[MUSF]

In 2 of the situations, it was what was done TO Buzz (UNO and Maymon), 1 was a misjudging the abilities of a recruit and doing the honest thing and cutting clean on both sides.   So IMO, 2 situations actually make him look good. (Maymon and UNO)  One is neutral.  Only if you accept Newbill's camp's version of events does Buzz look REALLLLLLLLY bad.   If this  becomes the norm, then I definitely want MU to step in. 

Many at UNO and the Maymons would argue that Buzz did something negative TO them.  Add that to Newbill and UNO and you at least have communication issues or poor judgement.  In all of these situations, I'm sure the truth is somewhere in the middle and I am pretty sure the Maymons are crazy but it still reflects poorly on Buzz's ability to communicate his message effectively or his judgement for dealing with these people / institutions.

You're right, it's not REALLLLY bad but it still needs to be identified, addressed, and corrected by Buzz and MU.  I don't think we should wait until this, "becomes the norm."

[Jay Bee]

Many at UNO and the Maymons would argue that Buzz did something negative TO them.  Add that to Newbill and UNO and you at least have communication issues or poor judgement.  In all of these situations, I'm sure the truth is somewhere in the middle and I am pretty sure the Maymons are crazy but it still reflects poorly on Buzz's ability to communicate his message effectively or his judgement for dealing with these people / institutions.

You're right, it's not REALLLLY bad but it still needs to be identified, addressed, and corrected by Buzz and MU.  I don't think we should wait until this, "becomes the norm."

  The only thing that is 'reflected poorly' is your spelling.  Are you British?  Hope you like it hot - 'judgement' day is coming.

  I'm not sure everyone that posts here lives in the real world.  It's quite amazing and unfortunate.  I'm far more concerned with the slowness of the users of this message board than anything that has transpired in the MU bball program this week. 

  If you "don't think we should wait until this becomes the norm", what do you propose? 

[NersEllenson]

Interesting that you listed 3 different situations, 4 if you add DJ, all with one common ingredient... Buzz Williams.  If all of these situations played out the way you have described, then we can at least question Buzz's judgement in getting involved with these parties. 

I'm not calling for Buzz's head but I would like him or the university to take some corrective action.

Who the "f" are you?  It's been laid out very clearly in 3 of these 4 scenarios where Buzz is guilty of nothing.  You want to continue to belabor the point that he's shady.  Personally, if I were running this board  -I'd call for your head and have some corrective action taken to shut your account down and the continued idiotic posts you are making regarding this matter.  You can argue who this Newbill situation was handled - but to bring UNO, Maymon and Roseboro into this..it ruins your credibility and certainly makes it look like you have an agenda/ulterior motive. 

[MUSF]

Who the "f" are you?  It's been laid out very clearly in 3 of these 4 scenarios where Buzz is guilty of nothing.  You want to continue to belabor the point that he's shady.  Personally, if I were running this board  -I'd call for your head and have some corrective action taken to shut your account down and the continued idiotic posts you are making regarding this matter.  You can argue who this Newbill situation was handled - but to bring UNO, Maymon and Roseboro into this..it ruins your credibility and certainly makes it look like you have an agenda/ulterior motive. 

Wow.  Calm down.

I am not and have never called Buzz shady.  I have never attacked Buzz's character or insulted him personally.  Read some of my other posts if you need proof.

I am also not taking the Maymon, Roseboro's coach, or DJs side.  I have absolutely no agenda or ulterior motive.  I hope Buzz is the coach at MU for the next 20 years.

All criticism isn't an attack.  I just want Buzz and MU to do a sanity check on how they are communicating, managing their message and image, and the people they are choosing to get involved with.  That's called growth and self-improvement in my mind.

[NersEllenson]

Wow.  Calm down.

I am not and have never called Buzz shady.  I have never attacked Buzz's character or insulted him personally.  Read some of my other posts if you need proof.

I am also not taking the Maymon, Roseboro's coach, or DJs side.  I have absolutely no agenda or ulterior motive.  I hope Buzz is the coach at MU for the next 20 years.

All criticism isn't an attack.  I just want Buzz and MU to do a sanity check on how they are communicating, managing their message and image, and the people they are choosing to get involved with.  That's called growth and self-improvement in my mind.

Great - but when your point gets rebutted, and by several posters - let it go..don't belabor the point.  UNO, Maymon and Roseboro have no merit for mention in this Newbill situation.  When you grasp for straws like bringing up UNO/Maymon/Roseboro - it makes you come across as having an agenda.  I've refrained from commenting on all of your other posts that all harp on Buzz - but enough is enough.  Don't automatically assume guilt before innoncence.  I don't like how this Newbill thing transpired..but we have some posters asking if this is a fireable offense...you belaboring the point...give our coach a little bit of the benefit of the doubt.  He's assembled probably the most talented team EVER in MU basketball history...and this is the type of thanks he gets or sh$t he gets??  Let it go..hopefully a situation like Newbill doesn't happen again..and Buzz will learn from it..though I have little doubt he communicated the message of prep school being a possibility for Newbill from square 1 in the recruitment and LOI stage.

[brewcity77]

UNO, Maymon and Roseboro have no merit for mention in this Newbill situation.

Maybe not to us, but they certainly do to the perception that is built up in other fanbases. It's easy to say we don't care what Bucky, or DePaul, or WVU think of us, but when I discuss basketball with fans of those teams, I want to do so in a way that lets me hold my head high because Marquette represents a high standard.

I still love Buzz. I still absolutely want Buzz here. But if you think that a broader public perception won't try to lump together Buzz's exit from UNO with the insanity of the Maymon family and the "running off" of Roseboro and Newbill, I think that's a bit naive. Besides, look at the title of the thread in which you are posting. Pretty sure that the events, at least in here, are being compared, so railroading someone for posting in the spirit of the thread and commenting on it is more than a bit out of line.

I want to believe that Buzz left UNO for the right reasons. They claim they have grievances, honestly, I don't care that much. Tim Maymon is nuts and is trying to live vicariously (and probably profit off of) his son, I don't care that much. Roseboro was brought to campus, didn't seem to fit the bill, and ended up going to a school that is probably more suited to his abilities (and hopefully off-court tendencies), again, I don't care that much. And Newbill seems to have been told "you'll get a shot if we don't find someone who fits our needs better", and then got upset when we found someone who fit our needs better. Again, I don't care that much.

But it's not that I don't care at all. I care that you can logically put together a line of questionable situations that has people on other boards calling our coach, the man who stands on the front line as the single most recognizable spokesman for our university, a "slime ball", a "cold-hearted mother <expletive>", a "tool", "totally full of <expletive>". Those are just a few from the links Chicos put up earlier. Regardless what you think of him or the people posting them, the comments are out there, and I'd prefer to not hear that kind of stuff about my alma mater.

Again, I'm behind Buzz. I'm optimistic about the program, and think he is a great recruiter, a surprisingly good game coach, and seems to be at worst too brutally honest for his own good (which I can respect). I just hope he learns from this incident and we don't have to explain away another questionable recruiting scenario next year.

[MUSF]

Great - but when your point gets rebutted, and by several posters - let it go..don't belabor the point.  UNO, Maymon and Roseboro have no merit for mention in this Newbill situation.  When you grasp for straws like bringing up UNO/Maymon/Roseboro - it makes you come across as having an agenda.  I've refrained from commenting on all of your other posts that all harp on Buzz - but enough is enough.  Don't automatically assume guilt before innoncence.  I don't like how this Newbill thing transpired..but we have some posters asking if this is a fireable offense...you belaboring the point...give our coach a little bit of the benefit of the doubt.  He's assembled probably the most talented team EVER in MU basketball history...and this is the type of thanks he gets or sh$t he gets??  Let it go..hopefully a situation like Newbill doesn't happen again..and Buzz will learn from it..though I have little doubt he communicated the message of prep school being a possibility for Newbill from square 1 in the recruitment and LOI stage.

I keep bringing it up because you and many others are not getting the point.  How exactly has my point been rebutted?  I only ask people to concede that there are 4 parties that PERCEIVE to have been wronged by Buzz.  You choose to ignore this because you don't think those 4 parties' points of view are valid.

I am arguing that the percepiton these incidents create have potential negative effects.  I am in no way saying that Newbill, Roseboro's coach, Tim Maymon, or UNO fans / admin are right and Buzz is wrong.  You seem to rush to that conclusion because apparently you need things to be black and white. 

Is it really that horrible and offensive to suggest that Buzz and MU might want to make sure that they effectively communicating or that maybe they want to take a hard look at whether offering guys like Roseboro, Newbill, and Maymon is worth the potential negative results? 

You can dismiss the opinions of the three parties I listed all you want but you have to know that there are a lot of people who are going to use them as examples of MU pushing the ethical envelope.  Look at this board as it relates to UW.  We love to cite any Badger indiscretion as proof that they run an ethically questionable program.  Whether its Ron Dayne's wonderlic or suspending star players for a few practices, most of what we bring up are not violations but they ammo that allows us to cast UW in a negative light.  I don't want MU to make a habit of putting ourselves into situations that create the perception of a program that habitually pushes the ethics envelope.

Is it time to fire Buzz?  NO!!! 
Does Buzz disgust me?  NO!!!
Do I think Buzz is "chicken$hit" (quote from the board)? NO!!!

Do I want MU to try to prevent situations that could cause people to question their ethics?  YES!!!

Now as to your overall attitude and tone:
Get over yourself and grow up.  I find it more than laughable that someone who has a history of personal attacks against other Scoopers would ask for me to be banned.

[NersEllenson]

Maybe not to us, but they certainly do to the perception that is built up in other fanbases. It's easy to say we don't care what Bucky, or DePaul, or WVU think of us, but when I discuss basketball with fans of those teams, I want to do so in a way that lets me hold my head high because Marquette represents a high standard.

 so railroading someone for posting in the spirit of the thread and commenting on it is more than a bit out of line.

But it's not that I don't care at all. I care that you can logically put together a line of questionable situations that has people on other boards calling our coach, the man who stands on the front line as the single most recognizable spokesman for our university, a "slime ball", a "cold-hearted mother <expletive>", a "tool", "totally full of <expletive>". Those are just a few from the links Chicos put up earlier. Regardless what you think of him or the people posting them, the comments are out there, and I'd prefer to not hear that kind of stuff about my alma mater.

I railroaded someone because he's beat and belabored this point beyond reason..and several Scoopers pointed out the flaws in his logic.  Also, the higher someone rises in life, the more successful they become, the more trash that is going to get talked about them...see:  Huggins, Calipari, Pitono,Boheim, Coach K..people hate on people who become big time winners and start to dominate their field (in this case basketball).  Considering we are looking at probably the most talented MU roster ever in 2011-2012..it stands to reason other schools are going to try to hate on Buzz and MU.  Now, once one of these recruits gets into all kinds of trouble, skps classes, embarrasses the university publically..let's give Buzz a pass.  He runs a tight ship program, and I don't think we'll have to see too much off the court behavioral issues from either him personally, or his players.

I've said I don't like how the Newbill deal alledgedly went down, and I do hope Buzz doesn't do something like this again, but ENOUGH with all of the crucification of his character over this.  I think Buzz got burned, and his verbal deal with the Newbills blew up..

[MUSF]

I've said I don't like how the Newbill deal alledgedly went down, and I do hope Buzz doesn't do something like this again, but ENOUGH with all of the crucification of his character over this. 

I agree.  People shouldn't crucify Buzz's character over this and I never have.

Of course in your world of absolutes, maybe suggesting that someone isn't communicating effectively enough or made one or two errors in judgement is character crucifiction.

[NersEllenson]

I agree.  People shouldn't crucify Buzz's character over this and I never have.

Of course in your world of absolutes, maybe suggesting that someone isn't communicating effectively enough or made one or two errors in judgement is character crucifiction.

Once again you belabor the "communicating effectively" enough point.  Perhaps in your world of jumping to conclusions - you shouldn't form opinions on how things are "communicated" when you weren't present at the actual communication event. 

And are you really not trying to indict Buzz's character?  If I click on your post history and read..oh..maybe your last 35 posts..all of them call into question/chip away at his credibilty/character...and that type of "communication" helps me get to my world of absolutes regarding your motives/intentions here.

[MUSF]

 

If I click on your post history and read..oh..maybe your last 35 posts..all of them call into question/chip away at his credibilty/character...and that type of "communication" helps me get to my world of absolutes regarding your motives/intentions here.

Be my guest. 

Make sure you include my awesome posts in the nickname thread, and my posts going after 3Mer for claiming Buzz doesn't live up to Jesuit values, or my posts about how excited I am to see this team and Vander Blue on the court.

Of course you will find the post where I suggest you would like to publicly fellate Buzz.  Sorry everybody that may have been a little much.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Maybe not to us, but they certainly do to the perception that is built up in other fanbases. It's easy to say we don't care what Bucky, or DePaul, or WVU think of us, but when I discuss basketball with fans of those teams, I want to do so in a way that lets me hold my head high because Marquette represents a high standard.

Well said and that's all most people are saying.  Do the right thing, don't put yourself in this situation.

If you look at the Dawson recruitment, we have other fanbases insinuating we're using $$ to influence his decision.  Never in my wildest dreams did I think MU would be put in that light, but it's starting to be portrayed that way on some of the Purdue and Indiana boards.  Whether it's just a few nutjobs or not, it's something I'd rather MU not get dragged through.

[Pakuni]

Well said and that's all most people are saying.  Do the right thing, don't put yourself in this situation.

If you look at the Dawson recruitment, we have other fanbases insinuating we're using $$ to influence his decision.  Never in my wildest dreams did I think MU would be put in that light, but it's starting to be portrayed that way on some of the Purdue and Indiana boards.  Whether it's just a few nutjobs or not, it's something I'd rather MU not get dragged through.

Wait ... what? How can Buzz Williams/Marquette possibly control what fans on Internet sites - who you're willing to admit might be nutjobs - are saying about Buzz Williams/Marquette, much less be accountable for it? Should MU just not bother recruiting with the big boys because any success therein might lead to some anonymous guy on a message board saying something negative?

Of all the weird statements of the past few days, this is among the weirdest. Apparently it's not enough for Marquette to stay within the rules. They must also make sure that no person in all of Cyberspace ever insinuates that they're not staying withing the rules.
You must have been in a real tizzy when the NCAA investigated Tom Crean for a violation during his first month on the job at Marquette. Never in your wildest dreams did you think MU would be put in that light.

By the way, I heard from a good source that Bo Ryan has paid off numerous high school and AAU coaches across the Midwest for special access to players. Bo Ryan clearly is doing something wrong. Even if he's not. Someone on the Internet insinuated it.

[ATL MU Warrior]

Wait ... what? How can Buzz Williams/Marquette possibly control what fans on Internet sites - who you're willing to admit might be nutjobs - are saying about Buzz Williams/Marquette, much less be accountable for it? Should MU just not bother recruiting with the big boys because any success therein might lead to some anonymous guy on a message board saying something negative?

Of all the weird statements of the past few days, this is among the weirdest. Apparently it's not enough for Marquette to stay within the rules. They must also make sure that no person in all of Cyberspace ever insinuates that they're not staying withing the rules.
You must have been in a real tizzy when the NCAA investigated Tom Crean for a violation during his first month on the job at Marquette. Never in your wildest dreams did you think MU would be put in that light.

By the way, I heard from a good source that Bo Ryan has paid off numerous high school and AAU coaches across the Midwest for special access to players. Bo Ryan clearly is doing something wrong. Even if he's not. Someone on the Internet insinuated it.

BRAVO...success breeds contempt.  get used to it and get oer it.

[TJ]

I've said I don't like how the Newbill deal alledgedly went down, and I do hope Buzz doesn't do something like this again, but ENOUGH with all of the crucification of his character over this.  I think Buzz got burned, and his verbal deal with the Newbills blew up..

It seems to me that there's generally 4 different groups here.

1) People who think MU/Buzz did something wrong
2) People who think MU/Buzz used poor judgment and shouldn't do it again and want to call attention to it to that end
3) People who think MU/Buzz used poor judgment and shouldn't do it again, but want to defend Buzz from too much criticism
4) People who think MU/Buzz did nothing wrong

I think groups 1-3 comprise 80% or more of the population here, as the majority clearly believes that poor judgment was used no matter what they are posting about.  I'm satisfied with that; I don't want anything more from Buzz than to not do it again.  I really don't think we (groups 1-3) need to argue anymore.

[Jay Bee]

It seems to me that there's generally 4 different groups here.

You're completely wrong.

[ChicosBailBonds]

You miss the point Pakuni.  Wisconsin runs a clean program and doesn't put themselves in these positions.  Your strawman doesn't even raise an eyebrow.

But when you start running off players and doing anything and everything to win, well all of a sudden people start throwing these things around and people do raise an eyebrow because you've invited it on yourself.

I don't know if you've followed the Crean rant on Twitter the last few days.  A few college basketball blogs have speculated who Crean is so pissed off at (it's obviously another coach or school).

Most people think it's Thad Matta.  But there are a number of folks that think it's Buzz, including some of the radio sports guys up in Indianapolis.  Who knows, but as I stated the other day, I just assume we avoid that kind of mud slinging.  You don't see Vanderbilt, Stanford, etc being thrown into these kinds of discussions because they aren't kicking kids to the curb, yet still have successful basketball programs.  When we start to do the things we did this week, it gives the "APPEARANCE" of something bad, whether it's by the rules or not.

http://kentsterling.com/2010/07/01/iu-hoops-tom-crean-uses-twitter-to-fire-a-shot-across-someones-bow/

http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=170&f=2353&t=6083000&p=2

http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=169&f=2616&t=6088059&p=2

http://buckyville.yuku.com/topic/31845/t/Jamil-Wilson-to-transfer.html?page=3

http://buckyville.yuku.com/topic/31937/t/Speaking-of-Crean.html

[Jay Bee]

You miss the point Pakuni. 

  You miss everything, pal.

[ChicosBailBonds]

  You miss everything, pal.

Go to bed Bauer, it's late and you've been drinking again.

[Pakuni]

You miss the point Pakuni.  Wisconsin runs a clean program and doesn't put themselves in these positions.  Your strawman doesn't even raise an eyebrow.

Strawman? What strawman?

Just so I'm clear, is the Wisconsin you now say runs a clean program the same or different Wisconsin that a few days ago you posted about having the third most major NCAA violations in the country?

But when you start running off players and doing anything and everything to win, well all of a sudden people start throwing these things around and people do raise an eyebrow because you've invited it on yourself.

When you "start" running off players? So running off players just "started" with Buzz Williams?
You're quite the revisionist.
I may be mistaken, but when Buzz Williams' predecessor ran off players, I don't recall you ever linking us to Wisconsin message boards as some sort of proof of the vast harm Buzz Williams' predecessor was doing to Marquette's reputation. In fact, I remember you going to those message boards and vociferously defending Buzz Williams' predecessor. So much so, that you were banned, repeatedly, from those sites.

Some of these links you include below are laughable and I'd be embarrassed of myself if I tried to pass it off as proof of anything.
The Illinois site has a five-page thread on the Crean-Matta dispute. Five pages with dozens of posts.  One of them  - ONE - mentions anything about Buzz Williams. And here's exactly what it says:

"Matta and Crean don't get along. But some of the radio guys have been speculating he could also be talking about Buzz Williams or Josh Pastner"

Some radio guys are "speculating" that Crean "could" also be talking about Buzz Williams "or" Josh Pastner.
I'll repeat .... somebody on sports talk radio - that paragon of journalistic accuracy and integrity - is saying Tom Crean could be talking about Thad Matta. Or he could be talking about Josh Pastner. Or he could be talking about Buzz Williams. But they don't really know, cause it's all just speculation.
Lord have mercy! Marquette's reputation is in tatters.

The remainder of the thread - all five pages - is dedicated to Illinois fans claiming Thad Matta is or could be a cheater.
If this post drives you to despair regarding Marquette, imagine what it's doing to loyal Buckeye fans. Mass hari kari this morning at the horseshoe?
I mean, someone on a rival team's message says their coach might be skirting the rules. Never in their wildest dreams could they imagine such a thing.

The Sterling link likewise is a joke. The author runs through all the possible people Crean could be talking about. He never even mentions Buzz Williams' name. Instead, he concludes that it's Thad Matta. Even says Matta has a reputation for skirting the rules.
But one commenter at the bottom of the story theorizes that it's Buzz Williams. And once again, I guess, this sends you into mourning about the downfall of Marquette's reputation.

Are you for real? That has you all atwitter?

I'm glad that when he was at Marquette nobody on a message board ever accused Buzz Williams' predecessor of doing anything wrong.
Oh wait ... they did. Plenty. And you were first in line to defend. Now, it seems, you're first in line to commiserate.
Which I'm sure has nothing to do with your sad and neverending quest to justify your opposition to Buzz Williams' hiring.

By the way, what's your take on the Bawa Muniru situation?
Weird that a kid would decide to transfer in late June. I mean, most kids make that decision months earlier, right? Apparently it took him three+ months to realize he didn't get a lot of playing time last season. And, man, as we know from the DJ Newbill situation, it's almost impossible for a kid to hook on with another school this late in the year.
I presume you are deeply saddened and dismayed about what has been done to that young man and the reputation of IU. Oh, and it was on oversigning.com, so surely you feel crestfallen about these latest developments. My deepest condolences.
I'll be sure to go check the Indiana message boards to read your thoughts on it.

[TJ]

You're completely wrong.

Then tell us, Jay Bee, what do you think?  I mean aside from calling everyone names and being obnoxious.  What's this 5th position you subscribe to?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Strawman? What strawman?

Just so I'm clear, is the Wisconsin you now say runs a clean program the same or different Wisconsin that a few days ago you posted about having the third most major NCAA violations in the country?

On the basketball side....yes.

There hasn't been a sense of impropriety since Stu Jackson left their basketball program.

And you're correct, poor choice of words on my part.  We started running off players years ago, but I don't recall us doing it before they even enrolled in the Fall semester which we've done twice now.  I view them differently, completely different.  In one case you actually give the kid a chance to prove himself and he has options with a transfer.  In the other case, the kid is left screwed in the middle of the Summer when there are no scholarships open anywhere in the country that are worth a damn.

So I should have said, "when you start running off players after they sign their NLI and before they start Fall classes..."

[MUSF]

On the basketball side....yes.

There hasn't been a sense of impropriety since Stu Jackson left their basketball program.

And you're correct, poor choice of words on my part.  We started running off players years ago, but I don't recall us doing it before they even enrolled in the Fall semester which we've done twice now.  I view them differently, completely different.  In one case you actually give the kid a chance to prove himself and he has options with a transfer.  In the other case, the kid is left screwed in the middle of the Summer when there are no scholarships open anywhere in the country that are worth a damn.

So I should have said, "when you start running off players after they sign their NLI and before they start Fall classes..."

I think the only difference between running players off now under Buzz and running players off under Crean is the way the message is managed.  Crean was a PR machine and covered his bases to get out in front of these types of situations and keep control of MU's image.  Was it slimy, slick, used car salesmanish?  Probably, but it worked.  Some think Crean's PR chops were a negative attribute but I see it as a necessary evil in the grey world of major college athletics.

P.S.  Sorry for bringing up Crean but I think it is germane to the discussion.