[Cracked Sidewalks] Recruits: Big East 2nd best path to NBA, and MU 2nd best NBA path in BE

[CrackedSidewalksSays]

Recruits: Big East 2nd best path to NBA, and MU 2nd best NBA path in BE

Written by: jpudner@concentricgrasstops.com (bamamarquettefan1)

With the guaranteed 2-year contracts going to 1st round picks Wesley Johnson, Greg Monroe, Dominique Jones and our own Lazar Hayward, the Big East has 69 players coaching or playing the NBA, more than any other conference except the ACC (74).

What is truly amazing is that if Hamady N'Diaye of Rutgers makes the Wizards then all 16 Big East teams will have former players in the NBA (despite all having fewer tams, no other conference has every team represented in the NBA).

Not only does the Big East have the 2nd most players in the NBA, but among Big East schools, Marquette ranks 2nd at getting players to the NBA.  Here is the complete list:

1st) Connecticut 12 - Allen, Ray (G-Boston), Thabeet, Hasheem (C-Memphis), Okafor, Emeka (C-New Orleans), Boone, Josh (C-New Jersey),  Villanueva, Charlie (F-Detroit), Gay, Rudy (SF-Memphis), Hamilton, Richard (G/F-Detroit), Butler, Caron (SG-Dallas), Gordon, Ben (G-Detroit), Williams, Marcus (PG-Memphis), Ollie, Kevin (PG-Oklahoma City), Price, A. J. (PG-Indiana).  Trying out (2nd round, 10-day or end-of-season contacts, etc.);   Robinson, Stanley (SF-Orlando).

2nd) Marquette 8 - Doc Rivers (Coach-Boston), Wesley Matthews (G-Utah), Jim Boylan (Assistant-Milwaukee), Maurice Lucas (Assistant-Portland), Novak, Steve (F-LA Clippers), Hayward, Lazar (SF-Minnesota), Wade, Dwyane (SG-Miami), Diener, Travis (PG-Portland).  

3rd) Notre Dame 7 - Monty Williams (Coach-New Orleans),  Adrian Dantley (Assistant-Denver), Bill Laimbeer (Assistant-Minnesota), John Shumate (Assistant-Phoenix), Murphy, Troy (PF-Indiana), Carroll, Matt (SG-Dallas), Quinn, Chris (PG-New Jersey).  Trying out (2nd round, 10-day or end-of-season contacts, etc.);   Kurz, Rob (F-Chicago), Harangody, Luke (F-Boston).

4th) Syracuse 7 - Frank Hamblen (Assistant-LA Lakers), Thomas, Etan (C-Oklahoma City), Warrick, Hakim (PF-Chicago), Greene, Donté (SF-Sacramento), Anthony, Carmelo (SF-Denver), Johnson, Wesley (SF-Minnesota),  Flynn, Jonny (PG-Minnesota).  Trying out (2nd round, 10-day or end-of-season contacts, etc.);  Rautins, Andy (G-New York).

5th) Villanova 6 - Alvin Williams (Assistant-Toronto), Allen, Malik (PF-Denver), Cunningham, Dante (PF-Portland), Thomas, Tim (F-Dallas), Foye, Randy (G-Washington), Lowry, Kyle (PG-Houston).  

6th) DePaul 5 - Tyrone Corbin (Assistant-Utah), Hunter, Steven (C-Memphis), Simmons, Bobby (SF-New Jersey), Richardson, Quentin (SF-Miami), Chandler, Wilson (G/F-New York).  

7th) Georgetown 5 - Patrick Ewing (Assistant-Orlando), Hibbert, Roy (C-Indiana), Monroe, Greg (F/C-Detroit), Green, Jeff (PF-Oklahoma City), Summers, DaJuan (F-Detroit).  

8th) Pittsburgh 4 - Tim Grgurich (Assistant-Denver), Gray, Aaron (C-New Orleans), Blair, DeJuan (F/C-San Antonio),  Young, Sam (SF-Memphis).  

9th) Louisville 3 - Clark, Earl (F-Phoenix), Williams, Terrence (SF-New Jersey), García, Francisco (SG-Sacramento).

10th) Seton Hall 3 - Adrian Griffin (Assistant-Milwaukee), Mark Bryant (Assistant-Oklahoma City), Dalembert, Samuel (C-Sacramento).  

11th) South Florida 3 - Jones, Solomon (C-Indiana), Jones, Dominique (SG-Dallas), Atkins, Chucky (G-Detroit).  

12th) Cincinnati 2 - Maxiell, Jason (F/C-Detroit), Martin, Kenyon (PF-Denver). Possible addition Stephenson, Lance (SG-Indiana).

13th) St. John's 2 - Robert Werdann (Assistant-New Orleans), Artest, Ron (SF-LA Lakers).  

14th) Providence 1 - Gomes, Ryan (SF-Portland).

15th) West Virginia 1 - Alexander, Joe (SF-Chicago).  Trying out (2nd round, 10-day or end-of-season contacts, etc.);  Butler, Da'Sean (SF-Miami) and Ebanks, Devin (SF-LA Lakers).

16th) Rutgers 0 – None.  Trying out (2nd round, 10-day or end-of-season contacts, etc.);  N'Diaye, Hamady (C-Washington).  

The players listed are among the 593 players who are currently on an NBA roster, AND are also; 1, a head coach; 2, an assistant coach; 3, a 1st round pick with a guaranteed 2-year contract; or 4, a returning player who earned at least $100,000 last year in the NBA.  Any player who earned less than $100,000 last year is typically someone who was just picked up on a 10-day or end of season contract, which is why they are listed with 2nd round players who often don’t make rosters under “trying out.”  Of course there are other players like Jerel McNeal getting a good look from Charlotte who are “trying out” but not listed.

MU > Wisconsin and Big East > Big 10

The good news for recruiting in state is that Marquette’s 8 former players top the 2 for Wisconsin, and the Big East easily tops the Big 10 by a 69 to 42 margin.  

Here is the list for Wisconsin and the conference-by-conference ranking:

Wisconsin 2 - Harris, Devin (PG-New Jersey), Finley, Michael (SG/SF-Boston).  Trying out (2nd round, 10-day or end-of-season contacts, etc.);  Stiemsma, Greg (C-Minnesota) and Butch, Brian (C-Denver).  

Top Conferences (top 2 teams in each conference)
1. ACC (74) – UNC 22, Duke 17
2. Big East (69) – UConn 12, Marquette 8
3. Pac 10 (60) – UCLA 16, Arizona 11
4. SEC (53) – Kentucky 16, Florida 10
5. Big 12 (44) – Kansas 12, Texas 10
6. Big 10 (42) – Ohio State 10, Michigan State and Indiana tied 6
7. Atlantic 10 (20) – Xavier 5, St. Joe’s 3
8. Mountain West (14) – UNLV 7, New Mexico 2
9. WAC (10) – Fresno State 3, Nevada 3
10. Conference USA (10) – Memphis 5, Marshall 2 AND West Coast Conference (10) – Gonzaga 3, Santa Clara 2

http://www.crackedsidewalks.com/2010/06/recruits-big-east-2nd-best-path-to-nba.html

[PBRme]

WOW Louisville only three.  No surprise none of their players ended up coaching.

[Daniel]

Are these stats since the Big East formed, or when Marquette got to the Big East or something else??  Of course, the Big East has 16 schools too - more than lots of conferences.....thanks - interesting stuff

[bilsu]

I do not expect anyone to take the time to figure it out, but it would be really interesting to see the numbers, if you removed the McDonald All-americans from the list. Doc Rivers was our only McDonald's all-american. For teams like North Carolina and Duke they are like dime a dozen players.

[hoyasincebirth]

These stats are a little misleading. For 1 why would you include coaches. I don't think any high school players are looking at which team has the most coaches in the league.

Second of all to determine the best path to the NBA one should really look at a larger window than just who's currently in the league. I'll admit my main motivation in posting is to defend georgetown. For instance we've had a lot of NBA players recently retire or leave the league. If one looked at this including a wider window we'd shoot up the list. In the opposite direction Uconn has a lot of players that will be out of the league in a couple of years: Ray Allen, rip Hamilton, Ben Gordon, Caron Butler will probably all be out of the league within 5 years if not sooner. All these players should count for a schools record of getting players into the league.

Georgetown has had a player drafted for the last 4 years straight only Syracuse can claim the same. I'm just pointing out there are several ways to look at this.

[dwaderoy2004]

Well, I don't think any high school players are looking at which schools had the most players drafted 20 years ago and are now retired.  Players want to know which schools, currently, can get them to the NBA.

I kinda agree, though, that coaches shouldn't be on the list, if you are looking at this for recruitment-type purposes.

[ron burgundy]

These stats are a little misleading. For 1 why would you include coaches. I don't think any high school players are looking at which team has the most coaches in the league.

Second of all to determine the best path to the NBA one should really look at a larger window than just who's currently in the league. I'll admit my main motivation in posting is to defend georgetown. For instance we've had a lot of NBA players recently retire or leave the league. If one looked at this including a wider window we'd shoot up the list. In the opposite direction Uconn has a lot of players that will be out of the league in a couple of years: Ray Allen, rip Hamilton, Ben Gordon, Caron Butler will probably all be out of the league within 5 years if not sooner. All these players should count for a schools record of getting players into the league.

Georgetown has had a player drafted for the last 4 years straight only Syracuse can claim the same. I'm just pointing out there are several ways to look at this.

Completely agree. This is an amusing list, to say the least. The reason coaches and assistant coaches are included, hoyasincebirth, is because they help MU in this particular ranking. Take them out and MU falls to the middle of the pack.

And I agree with you as well that high school kids dont look at where NBA coaches went to school. Ridiculous. Based on this list, why doesnt MU continually spit out first round talent, then?

The last MU player to get drafted in the lottery was....Dwayne Wade? Who was the last lottery pick before that? Create a list of schools that have developed lottery picks and that might be more interesting. Or first round draft picks. These are the things that high school kids look at...

[HoopsMalone]

Completely agree. This is an amusing list, to say the least. The reason coaches and assistant coaches are included, hoyasincebirth, is because they help MU in this particular ranking. Take them out and MU falls to the middle of the pack.

And I agree with you as well that high school kids dont look at where NBA coaches went to school. Ridiculous. Based on this list, why doesnt MU continually spit out first round talent, then?

The last MU player to get drafted in the lottery was....Dwayne Wade? Who was the last lottery pick before that? Create a list of schools that have developed lottery picks and that might be more interesting. Or first round draft picks. These are the things that high school kids look at...

You can always shift the data to show what you what to hear.  If I was a recruit, I would look at a school and see if it has a trend of getting kids paid if I thought that I had a chance.  The lottery is a factor, but that is very rare and would be better to have a wider view.  If you are good enough for the lottery, it is probably because God blessed you with talent.  The school you went to will not necessarily put you in the lottery. 

Removing all stats but the lottery picks is just as misleading as you suggest this study is. 

At the end of the day, there is nothing misleading about kids getting paid.  And Marquette has now put 4 players in the league in the last few years who were not really sure things to go like lottery picks are thanks to their God-given talent.  Marquette has a nice track record here.

[MuMark]

Moat lottery picks are not "developed".

The kids at Kentucky would have been lottery picks wherever they went to college.


Greg Monroe would have gone in the lottery right out of high school. Roy Hibbert was developed....so were DWade and Devin Harris.

[hoyasincebirth]

I think past NBA players still play a part in recruiting decisions. If a player was an NBA player especially a star while the kid was growing up that plays a factor. Everyone knows Ewing, Mourning, Mutumbo are huge recruiting tools for Georgetown despite the fact that they're not currently in the league. I mean mourning and mutumbo only retired a couple of seasons ago. 

I'd also argue that starters and rotation players count much more in terms of providing a recruiting benefit than do people at the very end of the roster that recruits have never heard of and never see the floor so no one even knows they're in the NBA. In my mind people like jeff green, wes mathews, Dawyne wade count a lot more than someone like chris quinn and malik allen.

Marquette has done a very good job at getting kids to the NBA, but so have schools like Uconn, Syracuse, Georgetown, etc.

I think the list of teams with the most first round picks is another way to look at this. In the the big east: Uconn, Louisville, Syracuse 15; Georgetown 12(10 of which were top 10 picks); ND 11; st. john's 9; Depaul, villanova 8; Marquete 7. Obviously some of this history is not as relevant as more recent events, but it's definitely part of the equation.

[chapman]

Take them out and MU falls to the middle of the pack into a tie for THIRD.

Nice first post.  Now crawl back into your hole.


Agree that coaches shouldn't count.  And things are a little misleading with the second rounders not counting as they're "trying out", but free agents who might barely get that much of an opportunity are counted...I'd consider Harangody or DeSean Butler more likely to make an NBA roster this year over Diener.  Also agree with hoya that historical significance matters, maybe not as much as recent player development (particularly under a current coach or since joining a new conference), but a program with history is always more of a draw.  It's definitely on more recruits' minds that A.I. went to Georgetown than it is that Novak went to MU, even if most talent levels are closer in line with the later.

[ron burgundy]

Most lottery picks are not "developed".

Evan Turner (Jr)- 59th Overall on Scout
Wes Johnson (Jr)
Ekpe Udoh (Jr)
Cole Aldrich (Jr) - 38th overall on Scout

And 13 first rounders were upper classmen (out of 29. 1 european)

[RawdogDX]

Completely agree. This is an amusing list, to say the least. The reason coaches and assistant coaches are included, hoyasincebirth, is because they help MU in this particular ranking. Take them out and MU falls to the middle of the pack.

? - 2 spots to 4th.


HSB: Yes, having a recent hall of fame players is good for your team.  This is an article on places that have NBA players now, of course there are plenty of other ways to look at it.  I wish that coaches weren't included so that we all could have been proud of being 4th rather than having to discus it.  

MU has shown a nack at developing the tools needed for players to survive in the league.  There is no way that Lazar goes in the first round without TD, SN, WM going before him and provding GM's with a track record of success.

[bilsu]

Does including Doc Rivers in the list make us look bad since his sons go elsewhere? Think about it he went to MU, is on the MU Board of Trustees, MU is currently perceived as a guard school, his sons are guards and we are not even considered by them.

[PBRme]

I think they talked about not wanting to play in his shadow.  Doc says nothing but great things about MU.

[marquette99]

Completely disagree with hoyasincebirth on coaches.  Seeing doc rivers and dwayne wade go back and forth with "marquette" on the screen in recent telecasts gets attention.  I've got to think knowing a top nba coach who has influence over who is drafted and is visible is more of a plus than a benchwarming player.

[bamamarquettefan]

All good comments ... obviously Dwayne Wade and Doc Rivers are worth much more than your typical player, just as Travis Diener is certainly borderline on coming back next year.  However, if you start trying to assign specific values you get real subjective.

However, having a legend like Maurice Lucas - which the recent Basketball Book basically gave credit over Bill Walton for the NBA title - still coaching and having a presence in the league is certainly worth something out west, just as Doc is a huge factor nationally.  Certainly there are coaches who carry a lot more weight than some players if you are looking for an NBA presence.  The fact that the Badgers don't have a single coach and may be down to one player says something about why a Vander Blue would just start to realize that this isn't a good path.

Also, in respect to our Hoya fan, part of the point is that the Big East is the only conference where EVERY team could be represented - so while we can argue over whether Marquette is 2nd or 4th in the conference, part of the point is that they are getting into the right conference in the first place.

[Blue Horseshoe]

Why are so many people misspelling Dwyane Wade's name? Embarrassing.

[4everwarriors]

Didn't Stan coach the Badgers?

[wadefan#1]

Why are so many people misspelling Dwyane Wade's name? Embarrassing.

Indeed, just terrible

[hoyasincebirth]

I'd argue almost no one knows what schools the majority of NBA coaches attended. I'd also argue it doesn't come up that much, but I don't really follow the NBA that closely so perhaps it gets brought up all the time. I'm sure it comes up more often with coaches who played in college and the NBA. I mean what college did phil jackson go to? I don't think most people can even name all the NBA head coaches much less what college they went to. And assistant coaches even less so.

I am very proud of the big east and all the amazing programs that are in the big east especially the catholic ones like Georgetown and Marquette. I just don't think where coaches went to college is on any recruits radar. The example of Doc rivers i think it matters more that he played basketball for marquette and played in the NBA more so that he's now a coach. I'm just saying that the argument is that kids want to play for programs that can help them play in the NBA. I don't think any recruit is thinking hey this program has a track record of sending former players on to being NBA assistant coaches.

I get bothered by broad generalized statements like Big East 2nd best path to NBA. The statement implies that going to the big east will get you into the NBA. It's just as likely that NBA quality players are committing to the big east. The big east attracts talent and therefore more people get drafted from the BE. I think these stats are interesting and great recruiting tools. But too often they're used to imply causation when it's simply a correlation.

[marquette99]

Sorry Dwyane - typing on blackberry sometimes inverts letters.I believe subjectively marquette is actually underrated by these counts if the question is really the best path to the nba.  Unc et al get several sure fire nba players each year.  Maybe the top 40 recruits each year project to make it to the nba one day.  Did we have any top 40 recruits between doc rivers and vander blue?  Certainly wade was nowhere close coming out of high school, and I don't believe diener, wes, novak or lazar were top 40 either.  Has any other school in the past decade taken 5 recruits who were not expected to go to the nba when they came to campus, but left campus heading to the nba?  Noone is arguing that the 5-star one-and-dones are going to all start choosing mu over ky, ks, unc, ucla and duke. But for the top 4-stars and some 5-stars or jc all-americans blooming a little late, mu could really be developing a nitch as the program that can turn you into an nba player. 

[rocky_warrior]

Second of all to determine the best path to the NBA one should really look at a larger window than just who's currently in the league. I'll admit my main motivation in posting is to defend georgetown. For instance we've had a lot of NBA players recently retire or leave the league. If one looked at this including a wider window we'd shoot up the list. In the opposite direction Uconn has a lot of players that will be out of the league in a couple of years: Ray Allen, rip Hamilton, Ben Gordon, Caron Butler will probably all be out of the league within 5 years if not sooner. All these players should count for a schools record of getting players into the league.

So you want to expand the window, but also exclude those that "will be out of the league in a couple of years".  Sounds to me like you need a GPS to figure out where you're going.

[Avenue Commons]

These stats are a little misleading. For 1 why would you include coaches. I don't think any high school players are looking at which team has the most coaches in the league.

Second of all to determine the best path to the NBA one should really look at a larger window than just who's currently in the league. I'll admit my main motivation in posting is to defend georgetown. For instance we've had a lot of NBA players recently retire or leave the league. If one looked at this including a wider window we'd shoot up the list. In the opposite direction Uconn has a lot of players that will be out of the league in a couple of years: Ray Allen, rip Hamilton, Ben Gordon, Caron Butler will probably all be out of the league within 5 years if not sooner. All these players should count for a schools record of getting players into the league.

Georgetown has had a player drafted for the last 4 years straight only Syracuse can claim the same. I'm just pointing out there are several ways to look at this.

Agreed that coaches, especially assistant coaches shouldn't be included on a list of "getting players to the NBA." At what point do you also include front officer personnel, etc.? Only players matter.

Also, should there be "weight" given to the route a player takes to get there? There might be an argument that Wes Matthews having to go from an undrafted free agent to the NBA doesn't reflect well on MU's "clout." Bottom line is we have had 2 NBA first round picks in the last decade, 2 second rounders, and 1 undrafted free agent. A nice record, but nothing compared to the UConns, KUs, NCs and Kentuckys of the world.

As for UConn, in five years it is possible that all of those players, yes even Ray Allen, are still in the league somewhere.

[RawdogDX]

I'd argue almost no one knows what schools the majority of NBA coaches attended. I'd also argue it doesn't come up that much, but I don't really follow the NBA that closely so perhaps it gets brought up all the time. I'm sure it comes up more often with coaches who played in college and the NBA. I mean what college did phil jackson go to? I don't think most people can even name all the NBA head coaches much less what college they went to. And assistant coaches even less so.
Yeah, so what?  Go pen an article that doesn't include coaches, this one did.

I am very proud of the big east and all the amazing programs that are in the big east especially the catholic ones like Georgetown and Marquette. I just don't think where coaches went to college is on any recruits radar.
Probably not, what's your point?  Out of millions of articles on basketball this one talked about coaches.
The example of Doc rivers i think it matters more that he played basketball for Marquette and played in the NBA more so that he's now a coach. I'm just saying that the argument is that kids want to play for programs that can help them play in the NBA. I don't think any recruit is thinking hey this program has a track record of sending former players on to being NBA assistant coaches. probably not, until they read this article.

I get bothered by broad generalized statements like Big East 2nd best path to NBA. The statement implies that going to the big east will get you into the NBA.
No it doesn't.  At least not to anyone with enough reading comp to go to MU
It's just as likely that NBA quality players are committing to the big east. The big east attracts talent and therefore more people get drafted from the BE.
Did this claim somewhere that we are #2 despite having less god given talent?  I must have missed that.
I think these stats are interesting and great recruiting tools.
So why all the complaining?
But too often they're used to imply causation when it's simply a correlation.
Oh, please.  So you don't think there is any causation?  If a 17 year old is talented it doesn't matter where he goes to school?  At that point in time his future draft status is already determined?  Whatever.