Jimmy Butler Makes Rivals.com 2010-11 Second Team All-Senior Team

[GOMU85]

Take a look.

http://collegebasketball.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=1088254

[crosscheck]

Great news for Jimmy and MU.

Any chance this could help Lazar's draft stock? I realize its a stretch...

[Marquette84]

Take a look.

http://collegebasketball.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=1088254

Not bad for a guy that some here argue has the talent of a 300+ ranked HS senior.

[🏀]

Great news for Jimmy and MU.

Any chance this could help Lazar's draft stock? I realize its a stretch...

Seriously?

[HoopsMalone]

Great news for Jimmy and MU.

Any chance this could help Lazar's draft stock? I realize its a stretch...

I don't think the NBA GMs are running to the Rivals Top Seniors list to gain insights on this year's class. 

[🏀]

I don't think the NBA GMs are running to the Rivals Top Seniors list to gain insights on this year's class. 

Aw, shucks.

[Lennys Tap]

Not bad for a guy that some here argue has the talent of a 300+ ranked HS senior.

Actually it was Scout, Rivals, Hoop Scoop and every other scouting service that rated him 300+ out of high school - not me. And when he looked lost early in his career at MU, some posters -not me - were even less kind, calling him a wasted scholarship. Hard work and great coaching have since seen him develop into an outstanding player. Kudos to Jimmy and the staff.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

With our decorated returning roster, anything less than a Big East championship would be a huge underachievement by Buzz.

[g0lden3agle]

With our decorated returning roster, anything less than a Big East championship would be a huge underachievement by Buzz.

PRN I assume you're one of the people that thinks the use of teal is unnecessary?

[AZWarrior]

It's OK, PR.  I caught the implied teal.   

[icheights]

Man is it aggrevating to see Cothron and Harris on the impact freshmen list when I wanted them in an MU uni so bad...would have put this team into contention right off the bat.  Hopefully we have a diamond in the rough in Gardners addition to the frontcourt.

[KipsBayEagle]

God, it seems so distant long ago, but remember when our lineup could have been....

PG: Dominic James
SG: Jerel Mcneal
SF: Wesley Matthews
PF: Jimmy Butler
C: Lazar Hayward

On paper that looks like the scariest team in the country.

[4everwarriors]

Huh?

[MU B2002]

Huh?

YEa I thought the same thing.

[🏀]

God, it seems so distant long ago, but remember when our lineup could have been....

PG: Dominic James
SG: Jerel Mcneal
SF: Wesley Matthews
PF: Jimmy Butler
C: Lazar Hayward

On paper that looks like the scariest team in the country.

Could have been? T'was after Jimmy started coming on in games.

[Wade for President]

Great company for Jimmy.  Hope he can meet/exceed these expectations.

[mosarsour]

God, it seems so distant long ago, but remember when our lineup could have been....

PG: Dominic James
SG: Jerel Mcneal
SF: Wesley Matthews
PF: Jimmy Butler
C: Lazar Hayward

On paper that looks like the scariest team in the country.

I don't get it.... 

[Marquette84]

Actually it was Scout, Rivals, Hoop Scoop and every other scouting service that rated him 300+ out of high school - not me.

But you dug up their data and quoted them to support of your case!  You agreed with them!   

Here's what *I* said about Butler's 2010 season compared to the others in 2004:
"Butler's offense (coming into the year ranked as the #4 offensive player the year before) has got to be considered a bit stronger than Merritt, Chapman or Townsend."

And here's how *you* replied in your attempt to dispute my claim:
Butler wasn''t in the top 300.

And later, you reiterated it:
I think it's pretty safe to say that a high school senior rated #50 is more TALENTED than a high school senior rated #300.

Now, if we had been making a comparison of, say, Scott Merritt in 2000 to Jimmy Butler in 2007, your point is vaild.  Because those gurus you quoted made those statements in 2007 for Butler and 2000 for Merritt.

But I was comparing Scott Merritt in 2004 to Jimmy Butler in 2010.  I don't think the 2000 and 2007 HS ratings accurately reflected the respective player's talents two to four years out of HS. 

You apparently did.

And this article sure seems to validate which of us was right.

[KipsBayEagle]

I don't get it.... 

i dont know where i was goin with this either, lets just pretend i didn't write it.

[jmayer1]

Nothing Lenny said was factually incorrect. Butler was not highly recruited coming out of high school.  Merritt was highly recruited coming out of high school.  One player exceeded his ranking by leaps and bounds, one player did not.

Lenny was arguing apples to apples--comparing what players were ranked coming out of high school.  The same scouts who do this for a living and have a whole heck of a lot more makes than misses.

Meanwhile, you're comparing apples to oranges.  Yes, DJO, Butler, Buycks, and Fulce made some sort of all-american in JUCO.  Would Merritt, Diener, Novak, Chapman, Mason...etc been all-americans in JUCO?  We'll never know, that's why its a huge jump to say Butler is more "talented" than Merritt. And this isn't mentioning that MU lost 2 of its best recruits due to injury and ego before conference play even started.

Overall, I agree with Lenny that last year's team had less God given talent as compared to the 2004 team.  One team exceeded expectations, one team fell short of expectations.

To get back on topic, congratulations to Jimmy.  He has come a long way from the first part of his sophomore year when he often seemed tentative on the court in deference to the 3 seniors.  I really think he'll make another leap this summer, continue to be much more aggressive, and have a huge year this year.

[Lennys Tap]

But you dug up their data and quoted them to support of your case!  You agreed with them!   

Here's what *I* said about Butler's 2010 season compared to the others in 2004:
"Butler's offense (coming into the year ranked as the #4 offensive player the year before) has got to be considered a bit stronger than Merritt, Chapman or Townsend."

And here's how *you* replied in your attempt to dispute my claim:
Butler wasn''t in the top 300.

And later, you reiterated it:
I think it's pretty safe to say that a high school senior rated #50 is more TALENTED than a high school senior rated #300.

Now, if we had been making a comparison of, say, Scott Merritt in 2000 to Jimmy Butler in 2007, your point is vaild.  Because those gurus you quoted made those statements in 2007 for Butler and 2000 for Merritt.

But I was comparing Scott Merritt in 2004 to Jimmy Butler in 2010.  I don't think the 2000 and 2007 HS ratings accurately reflected the respective player's talents two to four years out of HS. 

You apparently did.

And this article sure seems to validate which of us was right.

So you agree that Merritt was WAY better in 2000 than Butler was in 2007. And your point is that after 1 year of jc and 1 year of Buzz's coaching Butler was better than Merritt was after spending 3 years under Crean's wing. But I never said that where your talent put you coming out of high school couldn't be mitigated by hard work and a coach who can develop and utilize talent. Thanks for helping to illustrate my point concerning the importance of good coaching.

[GOMU85]

I'll take Jimmy Butler over Scott Merrit anyday

[APieperFan3]

I'll take Jimmy Butler over Scott Merrit anyday

AGREED.

Soft Mer...I mean, Scott...was brutally average.

[Marquette84]

Nothing Lenny said was factually incorrect. Butler was not highly recruited coming out of high school.  Merritt was highly recruited coming out of high school.  One player exceeded his ranking by leaps and bounds, one player did not.

Of course it wasn't factually incorrect. It was just out of context and intentionally misleading.

Lenny pretended that Butler never developed after he left high school and was still that 300+ ranked player in 2010.

Its obvious that he wasn't the same player he was in HS, so his HS rank was completely irrelevant to the discussion (even if it was factually correct).

Lenny was arguing apples to apples--comparing what players were ranked coming out of high school.  The same scouts who do this for a living and have a whole heck of a lot more makes than misses.

No. 

Lenny was trying to change the playing field.

He didn't want to compare 2004 to 2010.  He wanted to compare which players had developed further since HS. 

Its perfectly valid to compare Merritt in 2004 to Butler in 2010.  Statsheet makes is extremely easy to do so:
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=scott-merritt&i=1&p1=jimmy-butler

Meanwhile, you're comparing apples to oranges.  Yes, DJO, Butler, Buycks, and Fulce made some sort of all-american in JUCO.  Would Merritt, Diener, Novak, Chapman, Mason...etc been all-americans in JUCO?  We'll never know, that's why its a huge jump to say Butler is more "talented" than Merritt.

I'm comparing two ACTUAL teams and ACTUAL performances.  Can't be any more apples to apples than that.

Why is that such a hard concept to grasp?

And this isn't mentioning that MU lost 2 of its best recruits due to injury and ego before conference play even started.

First, how do you know those were the best recruits?  You just said you can't compare HS top 100 to Juco rankings.  But now you claim those HS players were better than the Jucos? 

But more importantly, so what?   Those players weren't a part of my comparison, were they?  Did I say that Buzz had more talent because he had Maymon and Cadougan?  No.  I compared the actual teams.

But I never said that where your talent put you coming out of high school couldn't be mitigated by hard work and a coach who can develop and utilize talent.

In other words, due to hard work, maturity, and coaching, by 2010 Butler was arguably more talented than Merritt, Chapman or Townsend were in 2004.

You can't have it both ways on this.  You can't give credit to Buzz for making Butler better than Merrit, and at the same time say that Crean had more talent in 2004 because he had Merritt. 

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

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