MU #18 team of the past decade

[ChicosBailBonds]

If the debate is over and we all agree does it mean that Chicos has admitted that C USA was at least a tad less than RED CAPITAL LETTERS LOADED in 2003-4? Oh, and where and when is the group hug?

Sure, as soon as we also all agree that CUSA was the best non BCS conference in modern history that year which had a sizable impact on our performance, along with Wade leaving, Jackson leaving, Merritt playing hurt and out of position, Diener playing hurt.  Sure, I'm all for it.....oh an also admitting that determining a team's performance on a coach's poll (in which many coaches don't even vote) at the end of the season may be close to the gayest thing said since Liberace was playing the piano in Vegas

One of the most ridiculous things out of your mouth Lenny, and that's saying something.  In 2002-03 three CUSA teams finished ranked in the coaches poll but only 3 went to the NCAAs.  So by your logic, that year the conference was better than in 2003-04 when 6 teams went to the NCAA but only one was ranked (despite others ranked at #27, etc).

I hear media guides around the country are being changed to downplay NCAA tournament participation and instead to hype up their Coaches Poll ranking. 

[NersEllenson]

Was Buzz lucky for landing a gig with 4 of MU's top 10 scorers of all time?  I'm just trying to calibrate what luck means to you.

Thanks

Absolutely lucky!!  For sure...that is a great situation for any coach to walk into.  What wasn't so lucky was the lack of talent left at MU after the Big 3 graduated.  Always tough when a coach leaves, as usually his recruits do, and the LOI's that were to attend said departing coaches team.  Crean dealt with this same issue at Indiana with the departure of Jordan Crawford and Armon Bassett.  Buzz did a great job of recruiting well to replace the transfers and broken LOI's with Jimmy Butler, DJO, Buycks - and he was able to extract enough out of Mo and Cooby to have a successful Year 2 at MU..and appears primed to have a bright future at MU.

It should be noted that this fantastic recruiting class we have coming in this year, very well might not see a lot of minutes..due to their being a decent amount of talent above them...this type of thing hapens when you recruit consistently well...which didn't happen the 2 years after the Final Four (which lead to a situation where the Big 3 had to play big minutes from Day 1, as there was so little talent on the roster.  That said, when you play more games than any other players in program history, and more minutes, in the era of the 3 point shot...it woud stand to reason those 3 players should be in the Top 10 of program history.

[Hards Alumni]

I think you have summarized the debate in perfect and concise fashon.  I can agree with every one of your above points, and that is basically all I have ever posted on this topic, and the topic of Tom Crean and his contributions to the MU program.  I've said Tom Crean was a good coach and good recruiter - but feel Wade was catching lightening in a bottle or a little lucky - sorry if the word lucky offends some, but we were very fortunate to have a player of DWade's caliber suit up at MU..and his prodcution certainly exceeded greatly, the expectations of him at the time he was signed.  Who would have thought he would become a Top 5 player in the NBA, at the time we beat Bradley out for his services?

Going back and reading all of your posts, I am glad to see that your point of view has morphed into the rest of our points of view.

thanks!

[NersEllenson]

Going back and reading all of your posts, I am glad to see that your point of view has morphed into the rest of our points of view.

thanks!

You strike me as the dude who was always picked last....and what's worse is you strike me as the type who was a sore loser too.  You cannot give credit to others were credit is due.  You cannot acknowledge other viewpoints that differ from your own as having any merit.  You are quite aloof and arrogant, and fit the exact profile and sterotype, non-MU alums have, of Marquette alums.  The arguments you make are often contradictory...arguing the talent of Travis Diener, Novak - but yet defnd the coach and/or these talented players for not making the NCAA tourney.  You fabricate things to try to make your argument have more effectiveness in asserting your point (such as posting that I posted Travis Diener was "terrible," which never happened." 

And lastly, my agreement with 2002's post doesn't reflect that I've morphed my point of view to match the "rest of your points of view."  2002 stated alot of what I'd ben posting in each and every one of my posts...that Wade was the key factor behind our fnal four appearance, that the two teams that followed Wade were disappointments, that Travis was talented, and had talent around him (Novak, Dameon Mason, Chapman, Merritt), etc...but..with that kind of talent, it is only fair to say that the disappointment of thosse 2 teams had to have been due coaching. If we give Crean the credit for the Final Four with DWade, we must also hold him accountable for the huge drop off after DWade left, while still having 2 NBA players on his roster.

[Lennys Tap]

Sure, as soon as we also all agree that CUSA was the best non BCS conference in modern history that year which had a sizable impact on our performance, along with Wade leaving, Jackson leaving, Merritt playing hurt and out of position, Diener playing hurt.  Sure, I'm all for it.....oh an also admitting that determining a team's performance on a coach's poll (in which many coaches don't even vote) at the end of the season may be close to the gayest thing said since Liberace was playing the piano in Vegas

One of the most ridiculous things out of your mouth Lenny, and that's saying something.  In 2002-03 three CUSA teams finished ranked in the coaches poll but only 3 went to the NCAAs.  So by your logic, that year the conference was better than in 2003-04 when 6 teams went to the NCAA but only one was ranked (despite others ranked at #27, etc).

I hear media guides around the country are being changed to downplay NCAA tournament participation and instead to hype up their Coaches Poll ranking. 

To steal a phrase from our late president Ronald Reagan, "There you go again..." Whether it's taking something out of context, omitting facts and/or statements germaine to the discussion, or (intentionally, I can only assume) distorting what others say, you are the best, numero uno, the undisputed heavyweight champ. You like to call me names like "Miss Cleo" and mock me by calling me a "mind reader" but I only know what you do - I've no idea why you do it.

Some of the people on the board who know you personally vouch for the fact that you're a good guy in "real life". I'm sure they're right and I should do a better job of remebering that. While trying to concentrate on that I'm calling a time out on myself from all things Chicos. I'll still read the board and respond to others, but a sabbatical from these seemingly endless and oft times pointless skirmishes seems in order.

[Hards Alumni]

You strike me as the dude who was always picked last....and what's worse is you strike me as the type who was a sore loser too.  You cannot give credit to others were credit is due.  You cannot acknowledge other viewpoints that differ from your own as having any merit.  You are quite aloof and arrogant, and fit the exact profile and sterotype, non-MU alums have, of Marquette alums.  The arguments you make are often contradictory...arguing the talent of Travis Diener, Novak - but yet defnd the coach and/or these talented players for not making the NCAA tourney.  You fabricate things to try to make your argument have more effectiveness in asserting your point (such as posting that I posted Travis Diener was "terrible," which never happened." 

And lastly, my agreement with 2002's post doesn't reflect that I've morphed my point of view to match the "rest of your points of view."  2002 stated alot of what I'd ben posting in each and every one of my posts...that Wade was the key factor behind our fnal four appearance, that the two teams that followed Wade were disappointments, that Travis was talented, and had talent around him (Novak, Dameon Mason, Chapman, Merritt), etc...but..with that kind of talent, it is only fair to say that the disappointment of thosse 2 teams had to have been due coaching. If we give Crean the credit for the Final Four with DWade, we must also hold him accountable for the huge drop off after DWade left, while still having 2 NBA players on his roster.

Well as a matter of fact, I was VP of my senior class, officer in several high school clubs, and on prom court as a Junior in HS.  So, wrong, on all accounts.  I never ran for anything outside of HS because I was too busy having 'fun' in college.

I'm not a sore loser, I just don't like to let people get away with BS.  I am more than glad to give credit where it is due, and you just aren't due any in this situation.  I disagree with you, I can disagree with you, but simply because we disagree doesn't negate the fact that you have altered your 'opinion' throughout this thread. 

Oh, and I am arrogant when I know I am right.  I am also humble when I am wrong.  If you look through the threads on the board you will see I have been wrong plenty of times and admitted it even!  Something you refuse to do.  I assure you, I am not the stereotypical MU alum.  I paid for my own schooling, come from a somewhat humble background and I am not even Catholic. 

I don't see where I have contradicted myself anywhere.  It is possible to argue that the team has great players without the team being great... which is precisely what I did.  As for the 'terrible' comment, it was clearly hyperbole. You said:

Bottom line is what did Travis Diener led teams do after D-Wade left?  I realize Travis is a GOD among Wisconsinites, and he was a good player for sure, but the reality is he never led his team to the NCAA once Wade was gone..yes he got hurt his senior season, but his junior season he had more talent on the MU roster, and "his" team didn't make the NCAA.  Travis was a great complimentary player that benefited greatly from playing with D-Wade.  He put up good numbers without D-Wade as well, but his team's didn't perform all that well once D-Wade was gone.

This is a joke.  He had more talent on the MU roster his Junior year than the previous year?  More talent than his Senior year?  It doesn't matter which you pick now, because the team was clearly the weakest his Junior year.  Travis was a complimentary player who earned all of the accolades I posted?  WHAT PLANET ARE YOU FROM?  This is what I mean when I ask if you take seriously what you post. 

I mean, I am not trying to be a dick here, I just hate it when people try to bend the truth in plain sight.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Some of the people on the board who know you personally vouch for the fact that you're a good guy in "real life". I'm sure they're right and I should do a better job of remebering that. While trying to concentrate on that I'm calling a time out on myself from all things Chicos. I'll still read the board and respond to others, but a sabbatical from these seemingly endless and oft times pointless skirmishes seems in order.

Likewise I hear similar things about you.  Message boards, or any written words can be taken out of context or read in a way that is not the intent of the writer.  Thus the danger of the written word vs the spoken word.

A break sounds good.

I do want to say one important thing.  I really like Buzz Williams and wish you would accept this as fact.  I think he's done a very good job so far.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Going back and reading all of your posts, I am glad to see that your point of view has morphed into the rest of our points of view.

thanks!

LOL.  Well played

[ChicosBailBonds]

You strike me as the dude who was always picked last....and what's worse is you strike me as the type who was a sore loser too. 

[NersEllenson]

Well as a matter of fact, I was VP of my senior class, officer in several high school clubs, and on prom court as a Junior in HS.  So, wrong, on all accounts.  I never ran for anything outside of HS because I was too busy having 'fun' in college.
I'm not a sore loser, I just don't like to let people get away with BS.  I am more than glad to give credit where it is due, and you just aren't due any in this situation.  I disagree with you, I can disagree with you, but simply because we disagree doesn't negate the fact that you have altered your 'opinion' throughout this thread. 
Oh, and I am arrogant when I know I am right.  I am also humble when I am wrong. 

This is a joke.  He had more talent on the MU roster his Junior year than the previous year?  More talent than his Senior year?  It doesn't matter which you pick now, because the team was clearly the weakest his Junior year.  Travis was a complimentary player who earned all of the accolades I posted?  WHAT PLANET ARE YOU FROM?  This is what I mean when I ask if you take seriously what you post. 

did you really just give us a rundown of your high school accomplishments??  I'm not surprised you were a student council member in High School.  You strike me as the oeverachiever type.  It does not surprise me that you didn't list any athletic accomplishments. You do realize tht in your own mind, you are right but not necessarily the minds of others - so when you celebrate your being right in your own mind with arrogance....well...that makes you arrogant in the eyes of many others.   More talent on the team his junior year, than senior year (Merritt), although you could argue that Dameon Mason was a talent.  It's funny that the quote of mine you selected about Travis..what I wrote wasn't false, nor does it mean Travis wasn't a great player..but the fact remains his teams as a junior and senior..he didn't lead to the NCAA (or was the victim of poor coaching by TC) which is what I'm most inclined to believe was the case..and was really the original focus of my point.

[NersEllenson]

 
I mean, I am not trying to be a dick here, I just hate it when people try to bend the truth in plain sight.

Here's something ironic for you - don't bend the truth in plain sight, and accuse others of doing it..when you yourself are guilty.

My quote:
Bottom line is what did Travis Diener led teams do after D-Wade left?  I realize Travis is a GOD among Wisconsinites, and he was a good player for sure, but the reality is he never led his team to the NCAA once Wade was gone..yes he got hurt his senior season, but his junior season he had more talent on the MU roster, and "his" team didn't make the NCAA.  Travis was a great complimentary player that benefited greatly from playing with D-Wade.  He put up good numbers without D-Wade as well, but his team's didn't perform all that well once D-Wade was gone.

And from you:  This is a joke.  He had more talent on the MU roster his Junior year than the previous year?  More talent than his Senior year?  It doesn't matter which you pick now, because the team was clearly the weakest his Junior year.

My rebuttal:  (Where do I write Travis team his junior year had more talent than his sophomore year?)  As you write below..he had more talent on the team his junior year than previous year?)  Please show me where I wrote that or implied that?  I'd say you just bent the truth...I'd expect better from a VP of his senior class, and officer of several high school clubs, and particularily more from a prom court member.

[Hards Alumni]

did you really just give us a rundown of your high school accomplishments??  I'm not surprised you were a student council member in High School.  You strike me as the oeverachiever type.  It does not surprise me that you didn't list any athletic accomplishments. You do realize tht in your own mind, you are right but not necessarily the minds of others - so when you celebrate your being right in your own mind with arrogance....well...that makes you arrogant in the eyes of many others.   More talent on the team his junior year, than senior year (Merritt), although you could argue that Dameon Mason was a talent.  It's funny that the quote of mine you selected about Travis..what I wrote wasn't false, nor does it mean Travis wasn't a great player..but the fact remains his teams as a junior and senior..he didn't lead to the NCAA (or was the victim of poor coaching by TC) which is what I'm most inclined to believe was the case..and was really the original focus of my point.

Yes, I did, you attacked me personally (The sign of a desperate argument, strangely the same thing HAYWARD does a lot... but according to him, I am an underachiever... you guys really have me pegged!) so I rebutted.  So, first you said I was a sore loser, and that I was picked last, and then you said I didn't mention my athletic 'credentials'.  Since you are so interested in my history, I was a 3 time varsity letterman in wrestling.  There goes that argument I guess.

I am right in my own mind, and what seems like the concensus of others here Ners... It isn't as if I am going it alone here.  Are you arguing that Diener had more talent his Junior year?  Really?  I'd argue that his senior year he had Novak as a Junior.  He didn't have Merrit (11.2 / 7.1), but he had an improved Mason, Novak, and Chapman.  Additionally, Marcus Jackson made up for Merrit's rebounding.  The teams were at best, similar, but Diener's senior year they were more experienced, and then the season went to hell when Diener got injured.  Plus CUSA wasn't as strong Diener's senior year.

And your original quote is what makes my argument, buddy.  It shows your old position versus your new one.  It is as plain as day.

[Hards Alumni]

Here's something ironic for you - don't bend the truth in plain sight, and accuse others of doing it..when you yourself are guilty.

My quote:
Bottom line is what did Travis Diener led teams do after D-Wade left?  I realize Travis is a GOD among Wisconsinites, and he was a good player for sure, but the reality is he never led his team to the NCAA once Wade was gone..yes he got hurt his senior season, but his junior season he had more talent on the MU roster, and "his" team didn't make the NCAA.  Travis was a great complimentary player that benefited greatly from playing with D-Wade.  He put up good numbers without D-Wade as well, but his team's didn't perform all that well once D-Wade was gone.

And from you:  This is a joke.  He had more talent on the MU roster his Junior year than the previous year?  More talent than his Senior year?  It doesn't matter which you pick now, because the team was clearly the weakest his Junior year.

My rebuttal:  (Where do I write Travis team his junior year had more talent than his sophomore year?)  As you write below..he had more talent on the team his junior year than previous year?)  Please show me where I wrote that or implied that?  I'd say you just bent the truth...I'd expect better from a VP of his senior class, and officer of several high school clubs, and particularily more from a prom court member.

I didn't catch that you claimed he had more talent his Junior year; it was a serious question.  There was no bending of the truth, it was a simple mistake.  Additionally, the last line you quoted is the money line... it doesn't matter which you said, his Junior year his team was the weakest.

Please stop with the personal attacks, they really only make you look like a fool and they weaken your argument... Unless you think HAYWARD has strong arguments when he resorts to calling people names.  If you want to be like him, be my guest, but expect to be respected like him.

edit: I am done with this thread, taunt me, do whatever you'd like, I'm out.

[Marquette84]

Absolutely lucky!!  For sure...that is a great situation for any coach to walk into.  What wasn't so lucky was the lack of talent left at MU after the Big 3 graduated.  

One stubborn fact is that on the day Buzz was hired, he inherited balanced classes-
4 juniors to be
3 sophs
3 frosh
3 players under signed LOI.

You continue to misrepresent the roster as completely depleted after the first two seasons--the fact of the matter is there were nine players who presumably could have continued on with MU.  

Players left for one of three reasons:  Buzz chose not renew their scholarships.  Or Buzz was unable to convince them to stay and play under him.  Or they had an injury.

None of those reasons can rightly be blamed on the previous coach.

If Crean had left a roster with 8 seniors, 3 juniors 1 soph and 1 incoming freshman, you would have a point.  But that wasn't the roster, that Buzz inherited, was it?

Meanwhile, if Tom Crean had decided to run off or not been unable to convince guys like David Diggs or Cordell Henry or John Harris or Odartey Blankson to stay with the program, he would had the same "year 2" issues--and it would have been his fault--not Mike Deane's.  

Always tough when a coach leaves, as usually his recruits do, and the LOI's that were to attend said departing coaches team.  

It sure sounds like you're just making this up to support your case.  Looking back at the coaching changes over the years, we've lost very few incoming recruits when a coaching change occurs.  Most recruits stick with the program.

Crean?  No.  The only incoming recruit (Krunti Hester) signed by Deane stayed with the team.  No other players transferred.  Hester left a year later.
Deane?  No.  All recruits remained committed to MU.  No returning players transferred.
O'Neill?  Mixed.  Dukeit had no incoming recruits.  O'Neill ran off a number of Dukiet's returning players.
Dukiet?  Yes.  Roman Mueller decommitted and followed Rick to Ball State.  Also lost John Jimmerson and Ken Rice--although they may have left before Majerus left and not a result of Dukeit's hiring.  Dukeit managed to keep Tony Smith, the best of Majerus' signed players.
Majerus?  No.  All incoming recruits remained committed and to my knowledge all players returned.

So where is your evidence to support the contention that "usually recruits leave" when a coach leaves.  I certainly don't see that has been the case.

Crean dealt with this same issue at Indiana with the departure of Jordan Crawford and Armon Bassett.

The difference is that Crean wasn't the assistant who recruited Crawford and Bassett to IU, nor was he on staff there.  Our incoming recruits and returning players were familiar with Buzz--they were either recruited by him or worked with him in practice for the previous season.  

It should be noted that this fantastic recruiting class we have coming in this year, very well might not see a lot of minutes..due to their being a decent amount of talent above them...

Actually, we had a good recruiting class because there is the perception that we have a lot of minutes to offer--both immediately and within one season.  We're losing 93 minutes per game right away, and the perception is that we didn't have a lot on the bench that could easily pick that up.   We lose another 57 minutes per game after this season.  

For example, Crowder--with only two years of eligibility--didn't come to MU because he was willing to wait his time behind Willams, Otule, (at the time) Mbao--each with three years of eligiblity remaining.  He came because he thinks he's going to beat them for his fair share minutes right away.  

Blue came because there's an opportunity to compete for the 30 minutes we lose from Cubillan this year.  Some think he might be a PG as well, which means he could compete for the 30 minutes that lost from Acker as well.  A year from now, another 24 minutes from Buycks opens up.  

this type of thing hapens when you recruit consistently well...which didn't happen the 2 years after the Final Four (which lead to a situation where the Big 3 had to play big minutes from Day 1, as there was so little talent on the roster.  

And the underlying reason we had a dip in recruiting was that recruits didn't believe Crean would be with MU.

Its funny--above you claim that when a coach leaves, his recruits want to go elsewhere.  But then you argue just the opposite when you claim that the post-final-four rumors about Crean headed to Illinois or elsewhere had nothing to do with a poor post-final-four recruiting class.  

We're starting to see those same type of rumors have started to swirl around Buzz (Oregon, Iowa, etc.).  My guess is that those rumors are going to be even stronger next year--especially if we do well.  We'll see how it impacts his recruiting.  

That said, when you play more games than any other players in program history, and more minutes, in the era of the 3 point shot...it woud stand to reason those 3 players should be in the Top 10 of program history.

Waving off the accomplishments of McNeal, James, Matthews and Hayward is downright petty, especially when the reason is because you're afraid it might reflect positively on the coach that recruited them.

[NersEllenson]

Since you are so interested in my history, I was a 3 time varsity letterman in wrestling.  There goes that argument I guess.

I am right in my own mind, and what seems like the concensus of others here Ners... It isn't as if I am going it alone here.  Are you arguing that Diener had more talent his Junior year?  Really?  I'd argue that his senior year he had Novak as a Junior.  He didn't have Merrit (11.2 / 7.1), but he had an improved Mason, Novak, and Chapman.  Additionally, Marcus Jackson made up for Merrit's rebounding.  The teams were at best, similar, but Diener's senior year they were more experienced, and then the season went to hell when Diener got injured.  Plus CUSA wasn't as strong Diener's senior year.

And your original quote is what makes my argument, buddy.  It shows your old position versus your new one.  It is as plain as day.

I wouldn't expect a Wrestler to have good sense regarding basketball - and your arguments illustrate your lack of basketball intelligence.  I feel completely cheesy citing my high school accomplishments, but...I was a 2-time letter winner in basketball, and was asked to coach andcoached at Marquette Basketball camps during the Mike Deane years.  I can't imagine getting on a wrestling message board, and claiming absolute intelligence and "rightness," when wrestling wasn't my primary sport of focus.The "consensus" you mention is you, and Chicos (who routinely disagrees with me, and likewise I routinely disagree with him.)  Could you clarify how my original quote makes your argument, buddy?  What was my old position versus my new one?  You've confused me for sure.

[Hards Alumni]

I wouldn't expect a Wrestler to have good sense regarding basketball - and your arguments illustrate your lack of basketball intelligence.  I feel completely cheesy citing my high school accomplishments, but...I was a 2-time letter winner in basketball, and was asked to coach andcoached at Marquette Basketball camps during the Mike Deane years.  I can't imagine getting on a wrestling message board, and claiming absolute intelligence and "rightness," when wrestling wasn't my primary sport of focus.The "consensus" you mention is you, and Chicos (who routinely disagrees with me, and likewise I routinely disagree with him.)  Could you clarify how my original quote makes your argument, buddy?  What was my old position versus my new one?  You've confused me for sure.

Okay, out of retirement for one last go 'round.

Would you accused a Jew who studys Christianity, of knowing nothing about Christianity simply because he is a Jew?  Because that is pretty much what you are doing.   Anyone can go to games, watch, and follow stats.  It doesn't matter if you coached.  What if you were a terrible coach?  You coached children?  CONGRATS, YOU TAUGHT DRILLS!!!  Clearly, you know more than anyone on the board because of your vast coaching experience.  Who is arrogant now? LOL.

I am not going to clarify anything to you since no matter how hard anyone (Me, Chicos, Marquette84, romey, StillAWarrior, 2002MUalum, et al.) tries, you just ignore, change your stance, and then name call.

It is pointless.  So forgive me, I'M DONE TALKING TO A WALL.

[NersEllenson]

Okay, out of retirement for one last go 'round.

Would you accused a Jew who studys Christianity, of knowing nothing about Christianity simply because he is a Jew?  Because that is pretty much what you are doing.   Anyone can go to games, watch, and follow stats.  It doesn't matter if you coached.  What if you were a terrible coach?  You coached children?  CONGRATS, YOU TAUGHT DRILLS!!!  Clearly, you know more than anyone on the board because of your vast coaching experience.  Who is arrogant now? LOL.

I am not going to clarify anything to you since no matter how hard anyone (Me, Chicos, Marquette84, romey, StillAWarrior, 2002MUalum, et al.) tries, you just ignore, change your stance, and then name call.

It is pointless.  So forgive me, I'M DONE TALKING TO A WALL.

You can't clarify anything, because I never changed my stance.  I can't have a rational debate with a wrestler, over a basketball matter.  There's a reason you were a wrestler, and I was a basketball player.  There is a reason former basketball players NEVER become wrestling coaches, and former wrestlers never become basketball coaches.   There is a reason former basketball players become basketball coaches.  Just aas there is a reason former wrestlers become wrestling coaches.   You should have quit a lot earlier in this thread.  Your admission of being a wretler diminshes your credibility significantly. 

[Hards Alumni]

You can't clarify anything, because I never changed my stance.  I can't have a rational debate with a wrestler, over a basketball matter.  There's a reason you were a wrestler, and I was a basketball player.  There is a reason former basketball players NEVER become wrestling coaches, and former wrestlers never become basketball coaches.   There is a reason former basketball players become basketball coaches.  Just aas there is a reason former wrestlers become wrestling coaches.   You should have quit a lot earlier in this thread.  Your admission of being a wretler diminshes your credibility significantly. 

You are dumber than I thought you were.

[ChicosBailBonds]

You can't clarify anything, because I never changed my stance.  I can't have a rational debate with a wrestler, over a basketball matter.  There's a reason you were a wrestler, and I was a basketball player.  There is a reason former basketball players NEVER become wrestling coaches, and former wrestlers never become basketball coaches.   There is a reason former basketball players become basketball coaches.  Just aas there is a reason former wrestlers become wrestling coaches.   You should have quit a lot earlier in this thread.  Your admission of being a wretler diminshes your credibility significantly. 

This is simply not true on so many levels.  Look at all the non-basketball players that have been great basketball coaches during the years.  Or players of other sports growing up that became coaches in different sports. 

Because you played, sure you have a perspective on how you think things should be done.  But other players, who were coached differently may have a completely counter view to yours, yet you both played.  Just as someone who wasn't a player can still be an outstanding coach or aficionado on a subject, including basketball.

[NersEllenson]

You are dumber than I thought you were.

So, considering you just attacked me personally, you acknowledge you are getting desperate in your argument?  Correct?  I don't blame you, you should be getting desperate, considering your pedigree.

Yes, I did, you attacked me personally (The sign of a desperate argument, strangely the same thing HAYWARD does a lot... but according to him, I am an underachiever... you guys really have me pegged!) so I rebutted. 

[StillAWarrior]

Wow...five pages and I still can't figure out whose d*#k is bigger.

[Hards Alumni]

So, considering you just attacked me personally, you acknowledge you are getting desperate in your argument?  Correct?  I don't blame you, you should be getting desperate, considering your pedigree.

No, you've flown completely off the handle, and are just throwing insults.

To call you stupid at this juncture is beyond name calling, it is simlpy a fact.

[MU B2002]

Wow...five pages and I still can't figure out whose d*#k is bigger.

What was this thread about?

[NersEllenson]

No, you've flown completely off the handle, and are just throwing insults.

To call you stupid at this juncture is beyond name calling, it is simlpy a fact.

I rest my case:

Yes, I did, you attacked me personally (The sign of a desperate argument)

[NersEllenson]

What was this thread about?

It should be re-named when good basketball debates go bad, due to the involvement of wrestlers.