Marquette84-Ners Debate

[Marquette84]

Nope - you continue to twist things to fit your agenda.  It is a true statement that Buzz has accomplished in 2 years, what Tom Crean has (minus a Final Four appearance), in 9 years.  That is a true statement.

It may be true, but its also a statement based on a twisted premise.

Why do you feel its okay for you to twist things to fit your agenda, but if I twist it back to a factually correct basis, you get mad.

I'm not going to deny that the omission of a Final Four is a big omission.

Of course it is.  I'm glad you recognize it. 

Why do you keep attempting to pretend it didn't occur when you make your comparison?

Do you understand that some people think that omission is "twisting the record to get the outcome they want?"

  However, when you rebut that Buzz isn't at TC's level, I reply that give him another 7 years and I highly predict he will get us 4 more NCAA tourney wins (which would equal the total of TC's)  I doubt under Buzz we will play in the NIT EVER..yet TC lead us there 2 years in a row after the Final Four team.

So, as I've said all along, the fair statement is that while Buzz has shown a large amount of promise and potential, his biggest accomplishment so far has been to continue the level of success that we've had in the Big East under Crean.

[Marquette84]

DJO being graded as a 40 simply means ESPN did not see him enough/have enough information to grade him and defaulted him to a rating of 40, not that they thought his skills were equal to a 40 rating on a 100 point scale.  Please stop repeating this, as it's highly inaccurate.

I think you missed the point.

Since ESPN didn't evaluate DJO, their preseason prediction of 12th was suspect because they couldn't possibly have factored him into their prediction--by their own admission they didn't know enough to include him.

Unlike ESPN, I tried to make a reasonable assumption--that DJO would equal the contributions of McNeal's freshman year. 

[NersEllenson]

I'm sorry, but how can you make this statement....let's get rid of the Final Four because obviously we know that totally kills your argument, so we'll be kind to you and agree to take it out.

Now, how has he accomplished in 2 years what Crean did in 9?  That is not a true statement, it's an asinine statement.

Crean went to 8 post season tournaments in 9 years.  So how can Buzz, in 2 years, accomplish the same thing?  He can't, so your "true" statement is a FALSE statement.

Crean's teams won almost 200 games in 9 years.  Has Buzz?  No.  False statement.

Crean's teams won 5 NCAA tournament games.  Has Buzz?  No.  False statement.

I could go on and on, but what's the point.

That doesn't mean Buzz won't accomplish all those things, if not blow right by them.  I sure as hell hope he does, but to say he has accomplished the same in 2 years as Crean did in 9,....based on what???

It's just a complete joke of a statement that you make.  It's completely ludicrous.

You've basically just re-stated the point I have been trying to make all along - Buzz has only been at the helm for 2 years, and has pretty much matched Tom Crean's "production."  I don't put a lot of stock into aggregate regular season win totals - when one coach has 7 less years of data to compare.  Nor do I put a lot into how many post season appearances a coach has - especially when you are counting NIT appearances.  What I do put stock in, is NCAA tourney wins, and in 9 years Dwayne Wade generated 4 of the 5 wins the Crean regime was responsible for.  My point all along is give Buzz 7 more years, and I suspect he will elipse Crean in all of the above categories you mention.  I'll be extremely disappointed if Buzz Williams leads MU to only 3 more NCAA tournmants in the next 7 years, which would give Buzz a total of 5 appearances in a 9 year span - which would equal the Crean regime's track record.  I'll be just as disappointed if Buzz is only able to record a total of 4 more NCAA tourney wins in the next 7 years.

[jmayer1]

I think you missed the point.

Since ESPN didn't evaluate DJO, their preseason prediction of 12th was suspect because they couldn't possibly have factored him into their prediction--by their own admission they didn't know enough to include him.

Unlike ESPN, I tried to make a reasonable assumption--that DJO would equal the contributions of McNeal's freshman year. 

I didn't miss anything.  You incorrectly wrote what you were trying to say.

"blindly taking the word of so-called "experts" who also claimed that DJO was rated 40 points on a 100 point scale?"

You misrepresented what you were trying to say.

Also, your logic here is highly faulty and non-sensical.  ESPN's recruiting guys didn't see enough of DJO to grade him so they defaulted to a 40, which I actaully find admirable and much better than slapping some grade on him based on secondhand reports.

However, that doesn't mean that the people making various predictions (different from those who do the recruiting rankings) couldn't factor in what DJO (a first-team juco all american) would bring to the table. When making predictions, people use all information available, not just incomplete recruiting rankings done by another person who happens to work at the same company.

Of course, there were lots of people, aside from ESPN, that figured MU would finish lower than they did this year. Just as there were a lot of people that picked MU to finish higher than it did in 03-04 and 04-05,  However, for some reason, you felt this team had to be compared to the 05-06 team, which just happened to be possibly the best coaching job ever done by the previous coach.

[Lennys Tap]

I didn't miss anything.  You incorrectly wrote what you were trying to say.

"blindly taking the word of so-called "experts" who also claimed that DJO was rated 40 points on a 100 point scale?"

You misrepresented what you were trying to say.

Also, your logic here is highly faulty and non-sensical.  ESPN's recruiting guys didn't see enough of DJO to grade him so they defaulted to a 40, which I actaully find admirable and much better than slapping some grade on him based on secondhand reports.

However, that doesn't mean that the people making various predictions (different from those who do the recruiting rankings) couldn't factor in what DJO (a first-team juco all american) would bring to the table. When making predictions, people use all information available, not just incomplete recruiting rankings done by another person who happens to work at the same company.

Of course, there were lots of people, aside from ESPN, that figured MU would finish lower than they did this year. Just as there were a lot of people that picked MU to finish higher than it did in 03-04 and 04-05,  However, for some reason, you felt this team had to be compared to the 05-06 team, which just happened to be possibly the best coaching job ever done by the previous coach.

Be careful, jmayer. Having the intelligence to connect the rather obvious dots may get you accused of playing mind reader or psychiatrist by Chicos.

[Marquette84]

I didn't miss anything.  You incorrectly wrote what you were trying to say.

"blindly taking the word of so-called "experts" who also claimed that DJO was rated 40 points on a 100 point scale?"

You misrepresented what you were trying to say.

Just because you don't agree doesn't mean its a "misrepresentation."

ESPN rated DJO 40.
ESPN was one of those who picked us to finish 12th.

I think those two observations are related. I strongly believe if ESPN had given DJO a fair evaluation they wouldn't have picked us 12th.

[NersEllenson]

Just because you don't agree doesn't mean its a "misrepresentation."

ESPN rated DJO 40.
ESPN was one of those who picked us to finish 12th.

I think those two observations are related. I strongly believe if ESPN had given DJO a fair evaluation they wouldn't have picked us 12th.

Fair enough, but then by this same admission, you must believe that if ESPN knew that our two top rated recruits  - Cadougan and Maymon would be non-factors - you must also acknowledge that perhaps we should have finished worse than 12th considering we were down our two highest rated recruits, correct?  As I've said all along, even with your inflated prediction that MU would finish 5th or 6th in the Big East last year -that was still predicated on Buzz having Cadougan, Maymon and Otule.  I think if you would just admit that Buzz did a phenomonal coaching job last season, most of us would be satisfied.  I don't have a problem stating Crean did his best coaching job at MU in the 2005-2006 season - the Big 3's freshman year.  That said, that was Tom Crean's 6th year at the helm, and there really is no reason why a team should be so reliant on 3 freshman to succeed at that point.  Clearly there were empty recruiting classes, the 2 NIT appearances after the Final Four, that resulted in TC having to coach up the Big 3 as freshman - and..I tip my cap to TC as it was his best coaching job at MU.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

It is interesting to see a debate for and against the past -- I'm really curious to see who will finally win!

The real question is whether or not resolute few would be "happy" or "angry/sad" if Buzz were to no longer be the head of our program.  The sad thing is that based on what continues to be debated, I don't know the answer to that question.

[ChicosBailBonds]

You've basically just re-stated the point I have been trying to make all along - Buzz has only been at the helm for 2 years, and has pretty much matched Tom Crean's "production."  I don't put a lot of stock into aggregate regular season win totals - when one coach has 7 less years of data to compare.  Nor do I put a lot into how many post season appearances a coach has - especially when you are counting NIT appearances.  What I do put stock in, is NCAA tourney wins, and in 9 years Dwayne Wade generated 4 of the 5 wins the Crean regime was responsible for.  My point all along is give Buzz 7 more years, and I suspect he will elipse Crean in all of the above categories you mention.  I'll be extremely disappointed if Buzz Williams leads MU to only 3 more NCAA tournmants in the next 7 years, which would give Buzz a total of 5 appearances in a 9 year span - which would equal the Crean regime's track record.  I'll be just as disappointed if Buzz is only able to record a total of 4 more NCAA tourney wins in the next 7 years.

Well, I appreciate you clarifying what you meant.  You obviously see things differently.  I value conference titles, regular season wins, post season berths, and post season wins....not just post season wins.  That's all gravy and a crapshoot in my mind.

I will never understand the viewpoint that Wade was responsible for all four Final Four wins.  I'm happy to send you the DVDs of each game that will conclusively show that is not the case at all, but it fits your argument and that's why you are making it.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Be careful, jmayer. Having the intelligence to connect the rather obvious dots may get you accused of playing mind reader or psychiatrist by Chicos.

Oh, the intelligence to determine what someone is thinking or what their motivation is?  Sorry, Sell that to muni fund buyer.  You assume you know what someone is doing or thinking, and you apply that filter to make it fit your argument.  Nothing more....but I am glad you think you have the ability to determine that in people.  Quite a skill, even if it is imagined in your own mind.

[brewcity77]

As a neutral observer, I simply can't see how this discussion is still going. Discounting the Final Four team is simply stupid. Giving Buzz credit
for 7 years of work when for all we know he will leave for greener pastures next year is just as stupid.

I love Buzz. I am much happier with him at the helm than I was with Crean. But Ners, your entire argument is based on deleting Tom Crean's greatest achievement and the proudest moment of my personal life as a Marquette fan and alum, and giving extra credit to Buzz that he has not yet earned.

Don't get me wrong, at the end of Buzz's career I hope we all say he was clearly the better coach and the 12 final fours and 5 championship banners in 30 years prove it, but we're not there yet. Until we are, you logically just don't have a leg to stand on.

[Lennys Tap]

Oh, the intelligence to determine what someone is thinking or what their motivation is?  Sorry, Sell that to muni fund buyer.  You assume you know what someone is doing or thinking, and you apply that filter to make it fit your argument.  Nothing more....but I am glad you think you have the ability to determine that in people.  Quite a skill, even if it is imagined in your own mind.

Give it a rest Chicos. I am but one of many on this board to connect the dots. Sell the idea that it takes a mind reader to one of your Direct TV subscribers. Better yet, include it in the basic package for free. An informed consumer knows you get what you pay for.

[Golden Avalanche]

You assume you know what someone is doing or thinking, and you apply that filter to make it fit your argument.  Nothing more....but I am glad you think you have the ability to determine that in people.  Quite a skill, even if it is imagined in your own mind.

He did that to me a few days ago. Fun crap.

[NersEllenson]

As a neutral observer, I simply can't see how this discussion is still going. Discounting the Final Four team is simply stupid. Giving Buzz credit
for 7 years of work when for all we know he will leave for greener pastures next year is just as stupid.

I love Buzz. I am much happier with him at the helm than I was with Crean. But Ners, your entire argument is based on deleting Tom Crean's greatest achievement and the proudest moment of my personal life as a Marquette fan and alum, and giving extra credit to Buzz that he has not yet earned.

Don't get me wrong, at the end of Buzz's career I hope we all say he was clearly the better coach and the 12 final fours and 5 championship banners in 30 years prove it, but we're not there yet. Until we are, you logically just don't have a leg to stand on.

Fair enough..but if Buzz takes us to 12 final fours and 5 championships in 30 years..I'll be pushing for them to rename the Al Center.  Lastly, sure, I am extrapolating a bit by assuming Buzz will be here for another 7 years, but based on the recruiting class we just signed - if they all stay for 4 years, and Buzz is able to add a few decent players each year  -I see no way this team doesn't make the tourney every year, and isn't capable of infliciting some serious damage.  Maybe it isn't fair to take away D-Wade, as Crean did sign him - yet I guess I cannot laud that as a great recruiting win, soncidering our competition was Bradley.  Now if a player of Newbill or Gardner's caliber goes on to be a Top 5 NBA player within 2-3 years of leaving MU..and either of them are the main catalyst toward taking us on a Final Four run - I will reletn and deflect some of the credit.  If it is Vander Blue or Jamail Jones leading the way..not so much as those two were highly sought after recruits that the former regime was largely unable to land

[ChicosBailBonds]

As a neutral observer, I simply can't see how this discussion is still going. Discounting the Final Four team is simply stupid.

Of course it is, but these are the silly games that are played.

Remember, it was "lucky" that Dwyane Wade came to MU (oh, and chose to stay here 3 years and still engages with his "lucky" coach constantly), but it's not lucky to land a head coaching gig in the Big East and have 4 of the top 8 scorers in Marquette history on the roster waiting for you, none of which you recruited.

That, in this strange world that some people here  live in, is how luck is defined.


The bending and twisting of facts and reality are sometime at mind altering states here.


Yet, that's the mentality with some here....and that's before any of the mind reading psychiatrists even weigh in.

LOL

[ChicosBailBonds]

He did that to me a few days ago. Fun crap.

He mind reads, connects dots and will throw out a few P/E ratios at the same time.  Very skilled.

By the way Lenny, I know one stock..cough...at a 10 year high today.  Hope you bought low and have been riding it the last year plus, would have paid off very handsomely for you and your clients.

[El Duderino]

Fair enough..but if Buzz takes us to 12 final fours and 5 championships in 30 years..I'll be pushing for them to rename the Al Center.  Lastly, sure, I am extrapolating a bit by assuming Buzz will be here for another 7 years, but based on the recruiting class we just signed - if they all stay for 4 years, and Buzz is able to add a few decent players each year  -I see no way this team doesn't make the tourney every year, and isn't capable of infliciting some serious damage.  Maybe it isn't fair to take away D-Wade, as Crean did sign him - yet I guess I cannot laud that as a great recruiting win, soncidering our competition was Bradley.Now if a player of Newbill or Gardner's caliber goes on to be a Top 5 NBA player within 2-3 years of leaving MU..and either of them are the main catalyst toward taking us on a Final Four run - I will reletn and deflect some of the credit.  If it is Vander Blue or Jamail Jones leading the way..not so much as those two were highly sought after recruits that the former regime was largely unable to land

Why should it matter in the slightest that Crean didn't have to beat out national powers to land Wade?

Not only is that utterly irrelevant in a bottom line business like sports are, the Wade situation could also be stated that Crean deserves extra credit for seeing talent in Wade that so many other colleges didn't by not recruiting him harder. Are college coaches only supposed to get a bunch of credit if they get to a Final Four or farther if they did that with a 4-5 star recruit or two leading the way? If though a coach strikes it big by seeing talent in and then signing a kid that was vastly undervalued by the big schools, that coach's accomplishment should be diminished as pure luck/fluke? What kind of bizarre logic is that? That coach doesn't deserve big props for seeing the big talent in a kid that other coaches from big schools missed?

Let's say for a hypothetical, Vander Blue only had a mediocre career at Marquette, but Newbill became a big time player that was the key cog in getting us to a Final Four. The accomplishment by Buzz of getting us to a Final Four should be judged as lesser because the not highly recruited Newbill lead the way instead of the 5 star Vander Blue?

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Let's say for a hypothetical, Vander Blue only had a mediocre career at Marquette, but Newbill became a big time player that was the key cog in getting us to a Final Four. The accomplishment by Buzz of getting us to a Final Four should be judged as lesser because the not highly recruited Newbill lead the way instead of the 5 star Vander Blue?

I won't be impressed if this happens. It will mean Buzz just got lucky.

Also, if you take away the 77 title, the 1970 NIT title, and the home undefeated streak, Buzz has already accomplished as much as Al. All of you McGuire lovers/apologists need to wake up. Buzz is the man!

[NersEllenson]

I won't be impressed if this happens. It will mean Buzz just got lucky.

Also, if you take away the 77 title, the 1970 NIT title, and the home undefeated streak, Buzz has already accomplished as much as Al. All of you McGuire lovers/apologists need to wake up. Buzz is the man!

The results will all play out in the next 5-7 years..we'll see how Buzz does at MU, we'll see how Tom Crean does at IU.  My money is on Buzz still having a high-major job (hopefully still at MU), while Tom Crean very well may have been relieved of his duties at IU.  If TC cannot land some of the major talent in Indiana in the 2011-2012 class, that will be his deathbed.  There is ZERO excuse for him to not clean up in the state of Indiana, given the legacy of that program.  His recruiting class for 2010 is pretty darn pathetic given all of the playing time available and stature of the IU brand/program.

And yes, if Newbill leads MU to a Final Four, and goes on to be a Top 5 NBA player within 2 years of graduation, I'll say Buzz got pretty darn lucky in landing him.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

The results will all play out in the next 5-7 years..we'll see how Buzz does at MU, we'll see how Tom Crean does at IU.  My money is on Buzz still having a high-major job (hopefully still at MU), while Tom Crean very well may have been relieved of his duties at IU.  If TC cannot land some of the major talent in Indiana in the 2011-2012 class, that will be his deathbed.  There is ZERO excuse for him to not clean up in the state of Indiana, given the legacy of that program.  His recruiting class for 2010 is pretty darn pathetic given all of the playing time available and stature of the IU brand/program.

And yes, if Newbill leads MU to a Final Four, and goes on to be a Top 5 NBA player within 2 years of graduation, I'll say Buzz got pretty darn lucky in landing him.

I think this is where you and I see things differently.

Tom Crean at IU has ZERO impact for me.

I appreciate the success he had at MU. I don't need to validate that appreciation by watching him at IU.

If Crean wins 27 National titles in a row, it has exactly ZERO effect on how much I will like Buzz Williams. My appreciation for Buzz comes from his own performance and personalty.

When Deane got fired, it didn't make me like Crean more. When Oneil loses his job at USC, it won't make me like Deane more.

For me, those things just aren't connected, at all.

I really like Buzz, and I like the way things are headed. That has NOTHING to do with IU. NOTHING.

[muchalktalk]

Ners,

You continue to say thatCrean got lucky to land Wade, but Buzz had to beat out big name schools to get Blue.  Based on the following quote from Blue in an interview with Rosiak, I will ask again.  Did Buzz get lucky with Blue because he had a falling out with WI, and he wanted to stay close to home?

What did your final list of prospective schools really look like? Reports had you also considering Florida, Arizona and UCLA. "I only had two visits set up, and the reason I did that was because I knew I didn't want to leave my mom. So I made sure I made it between Marquette and Wisconsin, and basically that was it. I made sure I let everybody know that it was between Marquette and Wisconsin. The only thing I had done with Marquette (prior to the visit) was talk to some of the coaches. I'd never experienced Marquette. I'd been on campus a lot at UW, and I experienced it all. For me, just being at Marquette and actually witnessing it and going to school, being around the campus fit the bill. It was somewhere I knew I wanted to be. And I want to play in the Big East, too, so I had to make it happen."

Again, I am not knocking Buzz.   

[NersEllenson]

I think this is where you and I see things differently.

Tom Crean at IU has ZERO impact for me.

I appreciate the success he had at MU. I don't need to validate that appreciation by watching him at IU.

If Crean wins 27 National titles in a row, it has exactly ZERO effect on how much I will like Buzz Williams. My appreciation for Buzz comes from his own performance and personalty.

When Deane got fired, it didn't make me like Crean more. When Oneil loses his job at USC, it won't make me like Deane more.

For me, those things just aren't connected, at all.

I really like Buzz, and I like the way things are headed. That has NOTHING to do with IU. NOTHING.

Fair enough - I respect your viewpoint as stated...and you make valid points.  This whole thread has snowballed out of control.  I guess there is no point in continuing to belabor the TC/Buzz Williams debate.  We all know where each other stand on the matter.  I like Buzz moving forward, others aren't ready to crown him our next great coach.  Fair enough, again.  Should be fun to see how it all plays out moving forward.  Hopefully Buzz will stick around for another 7 years so we can objectively compare/contrast the accomplishments of both.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Fair enough - I respect your viewpoint as stated...and you make valid points.  This whole thread has snowballed out of control.  I guess there is no point in continuing to belabor the TC/Buzz Williams debate.  We all know where each other stand on the matter.  I like Buzz moving forward, others aren't ready to crown him our next great coach.  Fair enough, again.  Should be fun to see how it all plays out moving forward.  Hopefully Buzz will stick around for another 7 years so we can objectively compare/contrast the accomplishments of both.

Not to nitpick, but one point of clarification (for me), I'm not waiting or excited to do a comparison of the 2 coaches at any point (even after year 9).

I know part of fandom and forums is comparisons and random speculation, but I just don't see the value in this comparison because the topic can become so polarizing.

I'm not trying to climb the high moral ground, just saying that it only seems to create a debate that becomes more about Crean than about anything else.

Buzz has been good so far. I'm excited for the future. (the letters C.R.E.A.N. don't have anything to do with that.).

[ChicosBailBonds]

Fair enough - I respect your viewpoint as stated...and you make valid points.  This whole thread has snowballed out of control.  I guess there is no point in continuing to belabor the TC/Buzz Williams debate.  We all know where each other stand on the matter.  I like Buzz moving forward, others aren't ready to crown him our next great coach.  Fair enough, again.  Should be fun to see how it all plays out moving forward.  Hopefully Buzz will stick around for another 7 years so we can objectively compare/contrast the accomplishments of both.

Do you think you had anything to do with it snowballing?  When you claim that people love the ex-coach or any other charges like that?  I agree with what 2002 said, appreciate what TC did for MU when he was at MU.  Who gives a rip what he does elsewhere.  The only people that do are those that have a hard on for him to fail, that's the only reason.

Crean did a very good job and that reign ended officially this year with last of his players playing (Hayward, Cubillan, Acker).  Buzz, so far, is doing a very good job and the future looks bright (sans the conference potential implosion).  Appreciate them both and but don't be surprised if a thread gets out of control when you rip on others for valid viewpoints, or say one thing only to be caught in a 180 degree position with your own words.

[Lennys Tap]

Do you think you had anything to do with it snowballing?  When you claim that people love the ex-coach or any other charges like that?  I agree with what 2002 said, appreciate what TC did for MU when he was at MU.  Who gives a rip what he does elsewhere.  The only people that do are those that have a hard on for him to fail, that's the only reason.

Crean did a very good job and that reign ended officially this year with last of his players playing (Hayward, Cubillan, Acker).  Buzz, so far, is doing a very good job and the future looks bright (sans the conference potential implosion).  Appreciate them both and but don't be surprised if a thread gets out of control when you rip on others for valid viewpoints, or say one thing only to be caught in a 180 degree position with your own words.

Who gives a rip what he does elsewhere? Based on your giddiness when he got his third Big 10 win last year and your multple posts predicting his eventual success at IU, I'd say you.

But it's comforting to know that you never rip on people with valid viewpoints. On behalf of the rest of the board, thanks for your patience.