I am a ND football fan

[downtown85]

ND football is one of the best.  

Sorry, had to post this.  Every time I meet a delusional ND football fan, I think of this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0Y7yjxJVlc

[MerrittsMustache]

If they didn't have standards, he would have never been kicked out.  He enrolled in another school, got his grades up, and came back.  When has a football player been kicked out for grades from USC, OSU, FL, or any other elite program?

If the kid jacked up his grades, and goes to AZ to pump up his grades (along with other things), and re-enrolls, what's wrong with that?

What's wrong is that ND claims to hold themselves to a higher standard. If a student-athlete flunks out of the university (majoring in TV, film and theatre) and then goes to an easier school to earn some credits so he can get back in, IMO that brings the university's integrity into question.

Also, ignoring the fact that ND is no longer an elite program, why would they compare themselves to USC, OSU, FL or "any other elite program"? After all, those schools are "football factories", not institutions of higher learning like ND  

Oh, and two-time All-American OL Rob Murphy flunked out of Ohio State in 2000ish.

Obviously, you're not going to change your tune on the almighty ND football program so we can just agree to disagree.

[StillAWarrior]

Sorry, had to post this.  Every time I meet a delusional ND football fan, I think of this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0Y7yjxJVlc

I'm a ND football fan and have been since I was a kid (sounds like the beginning of an AA meeting).  My Dad went there, so it was required of me to receive free room and board.  And even I thought that video was hilarious.  I know the type.

Truth be told, I really don't follow ND football too closely any more.  With kids of my own, my Saturdays are far to busy to watch much college football.  I can't remember the last time I sat and watched a ND game.

[ErickJD08]

What's wrong is that ND claims to hold themselves to a higher standard. If a student-athlete flunks out of the university (majoring in TV, film and theatre) and then goes to an easier school to earn some credits so he can get back in, IMO that brings the university's integrity into question.

Also, ignoring the fact that ND is no longer an elite program, why would they compare themselves to USC, OSU, FL or "any other elite program"? After all, those schools are "football factories", not institutions of higher learning like ND  

Oh, and two-time All-American OL Rob Murphy flunked out of Ohio State in 2000ish.

Obviously, you're not going to change your tune on the almighty ND football program so we can just agree to disagree.

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one.  We can argue about what an elite program is all day as well.  National Championships... BCS bowl games... National exposure... recruiting rankings... program spending... consistent top ten rankings... or a combination of all these.  I would say its a combination.  If so, then ND is up there still.

ND is still a "football factory".  From 1988 to 2007, ND is fifth is producing NFL players at 115 (Number one all time).  Whatever, ND is polarizing and I have had too many conversations talking about ND being irrelevant, having an easy schedule, or being overrated.  I am used to the nonsense.  

People that say "ND fans are delusional" have to look in the mirror when they label them as irrevelant or not elite.  Facts are facts.  ND still recruits top tier talent.  ND still in on the front pages.  And if ND is undefeated, they play in a national championship game while remaining independant.  

[Doctor V]

I'm a ND football fan and have been since I was a kid (sounds like the beginning of an AA meeting).  My Dad went there, so it was required of me to receive free room and board.  And even I thought that video was hilarious.  I know the type.

Truth be told, I really don't follow ND football too closely any more.  With kids of my own, my Saturdays are far to busy to watch much college football.  I can't remember the last time I sat and watched a ND game.

Yes, but you are still a warrior, and thats what counts 

[Markusquette]

Why don't we talk about Otule and basketball instead of ND football 

[MerrittsMustache]

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one.  We can argue about what an elite program is all day as well.  National Championships... BCS bowl games... National exposure... recruiting rankings... program spending... consistent top ten rankings... or a combination of all these.  I would say its a combination.  If so, then ND is up there still.

ND is still a "football factory".  From 1988 to 2007, ND is fifth is producing NFL players at 115 (Number one all time).  Whatever, ND is polarizing and I have had too many conversations talking about ND being irrelevant, having an easy schedule, or being overrated.  I am used to the nonsense.  

People that say "ND fans are delusional" have to look in the mirror when they label them as irrevelant or not elite.  Facts are facts.  ND still recruits top tier talent.  ND still in on the front pages.  And if ND is undefeated, they play in a national championship game while remaining independant.  

I'm sorry to keep this going but, NBC TV deal or not, there's NO WAY that you can honestly say ND is currently an elite football program. You might say that they are a "big name" program, because they definitely are. But to say that they currently rank among TODAY'S elite programs is laughable. The current elite programs haven't gone 20+ years without winning a National Championship nor do they have 1 bowl win since 1993 (in the much heralded Hawaii Bowl nonetheless) while not even going to a bowl 5 times during that stretch.

Since 1988? 1988?!? Seriously?!? Run those NFL numbers a little more recently, like from 2000 until the present. I'm guessing you'll see some different results.

There. I've said my piece.
---------------------------------------------------------------

In the few minutes he played this past season, Otule definitely looked like a much improved player. If he takes another step forward this season (without injuring himself in the process), he should be a nice "addition" for MU. It will be a welcome site to see an actual big man on the court in a Marquette uniform.

[GOO]

It goes to show you, that ND's performance may not be elite, but they still get the eye balls to tune in on Saturday like no other program.  Bottom line is that people are more likely to tune in when ND plays around the nation then any other program on any given Saturday.  People love and hate them, and thus watch them.  They still command a lot of interest despite their performance.  So, imagine the eye balls when/if they return to an elite status.  The one college football game that I can say that I watch almost each year is ND vs. USC, and it isn't to watch USC.  It is just the history of that game and the passion.
I'm no college football fan as the pro game is better (in my opinion) and the pros play just as hard (unlike pro-basketball). However, if I'm looking for something to watch on a rainy Saturday, it will be ND. 

[ErickJD08]

OK.... ND is 9th on rosters (28) from September 2009 and teams signed 5 players this year.  AND that's when they have been "irrelevant".  I think its just semantics.  What's elite?  National Championships... OK, ND is not elite, but does winning one automatically make them elite again?  Look at Bama.  Before this last season, they haven't won a NC in decades and they never produced a Heisman winner.  So were they are not elite in 2008, and elite in 2010?  

For me, a team doesn't become elite over night.  And they don't become irrelevant over night too.  For me, elite means everything I stated before.  The most important factors (but not the only ones) for me are history and recruiting.  What have they done and where are they going?  

What have they done?  I don't have this ten year moving timeline or I look at what they have done in my lifetime (in which they have won two championships).  I look at the whole picture.

Where are recruits going? Not only is that an indicator that they will be good in the future, but if elite HS players are still going to ND, that says something.  It says that kids (who have never seen ND win a championship) who can go anywhere in the country pick ND.  

That's my take, no need to respond because we just have different definitions of elite... and that's OK.

So shift this back to MU, I think MU can be elite.  Buzz needs to win championships because we don't have enough in our history.  But he is recruiting extremely well and building a winning tradition.  And Otule is a big factor for Buzz next season.  He could be the difference of better pretty good and really good.

[d6]

Alabama won three national championships in the 60s, three in the 70s, and again in 1992 before this year.  Not making any type of argument about what is "elite," but they haven't gone decades without an NC.

[wadesworld]

Just thought I'd update this to a more accurate title. That is all.

[LON]

Sorry, had to post this.  Every time I meet a delusional ND football fan, I think of this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0Y7yjxJVlc

Bumped because I laughed pretty hard at this last night..."BC's got better Christians!"

[JWags85]

OK.... ND is 9th on rosters (28) from September 2009 and teams signed 5 players this year.  AND that's when they have been "irrelevant".  I think its just semantics.  

That doesn't speak well of ND either.  Shows more wasted talent which has been a hallmark of ND recently.

[brewcity77]

For me, a team doesn't become elite over night.  And they don't become irrelevant over night too.  For me, elite means everything I stated before.  The most important factors (but not the only ones) for me are history and recruiting.  What have they done and where are they going?

Frankly, I still think this debate has no place here, but if the definition of elite is sending guys to the next level, here's where Notre Dame stands. I went back to 2000 and went through to find out where all the major universities stood in terms of number of players drafted. Here's the table:

73 - Ohio State (16 in first round)
69 - USC (15)
67 - Miami (26)
61 - Georgia (10)
60 - Tennessee (12)
59 - Florida State (14)
59 - Florida (12)
55 - LSU (9)
52 - Virginia Tech (4)
49 - Oklahoma (12)
49 - Michigan (9)
46 - Wisconsin (7)
46 - Notre Dame (2)
45 - Texas (14)
44 - Nebraska (3)
43 - Penn State (10)
42 - Alabama (5)

Those were all the teams I saw with 40+. So Notre Dame came in a respectable 12th. That's not so bad, but only two first rounders in the past 11 years (Brady Quinn and Jeff Faine). That's lowest on this list, and there are a lot of other schools not on this list that would beat that figure.

End of the day, Notre Dame is a good, but not great football school. They get some good recruits because of name recognition, but their heyday (for the time being) has come and gone. And I would agree that Alabama is not elite yet, I would probably restrict that kind of term for schools like Ohio State, Miami, USC, Florida, etc, but the difference is that Alabama is on the rise while ND is on the decline.

Simply put, if you are going to call Notre Dame elite, you have to recognize that they are not quite as elite as Wisconsin. So is Bucky "elite" when it comes to college football? Maybe it's just my Marquette bias, but methinks not.

[ErickJD08]

Frankly, I still think this debate has no place here, but if the definition of elite is sending guys to the next level, here's where Notre Dame stands. I went back to 2000 and went through to find out where all the major universities stood in terms of number of players drafted. Here's the table:

73 - Ohio State (16 in first round)
69 - USC (15)
67 - Miami (26)
61 - Georgia (10)
60 - Tennessee (12)
59 - Florida State (14)
59 - Florida (12)
55 - LSU (9)
52 - Virginia Tech (4)
49 - Oklahoma (12)
49 - Michigan (9)
46 - Wisconsin (7)
46 - Notre Dame (2)
45 - Texas (14)
44 - Nebraska (3)
43 - Penn State (10)
42 - Alabama (5)

Those were all the teams I saw with 40+. So Notre Dame came in a respectable 12th. That's not so bad, but only two first rounders in the past 11 years (Brady Quinn and Jeff Faine). That's lowest on this list, and there are a lot of other schools not on this list that would beat that figure.

End of the day, Notre Dame is a good, but not great football school. They get some good recruits because of name recognition, but their heyday (for the time being) has come and gone. And I would agree that Alabama is not elite yet, I would probably restrict that kind of term for schools like Ohio State, Miami, USC, Florida, etc, but the difference is that Alabama is on the rise while ND is on the decline.

Simply put, if you are going to call Notre Dame elite, you have to recognize that they are not quite as elite as Wisconsin. So is Bucky "elite" when it comes to college football? Maybe it's just my Marquette bias, but methinks not.

Well, if you look strictly at which schools produce the most pros for the "eliteness" barameter, then yes, Bucky is at the same level.  And that means "elite" can shift fairly quickly.  And ND is 12th, on the eliteness scale during a stretch that many ND faithful would characterize as the worst 10 year stretch in ND history.  I would say the first round status is a good correlation to the team's success.  So its not surprising that ND only have had two first rounders. 

And add another wrinkle to the "elite" debate.  How many teams can be "elite"?  5... 10?  I would say about 10. 

And I look at recruiting and ND's 2011 class (per Rivals) is off to a really good start (five 4 stars and one 5 star).  Like I said, there are numerous factors (recruiting, money, BCS bowl appearances, NC's, BCS wins, conference titles, national attention, NFL players) for being elite and ND is on top of many of them.

[TheButlerDidIt]

Can someone please lock this joke of a thread? I'm sure there's a spring game thread on one of the thousand ND football boards that can accomodate this nonsense.

[Wade for President]

Please lock this topic.  Immediately.

[ErickJD08]

I personally apologize for taking over the topic... but much like the Crean crap that goes on here.  If you don't like it, then don't read it.  This could easily go on the Superbar side. 

[MerrittsMustache]

I personally apologize for taking over the topic... but much like the Crean crap that goes on here.  If you don't like it, then don't read it.  This could easily go on the Superbar side. 

Hey! Finally we agree on something! 

[TheButlerDidIt]

You're kidding, right? At least Crean was an important figure in the history of Marquette. Why shouldn't I attempt to read a thread that is titled "Word out of the Dieng/Noreen Scrimmage" and expect to not read ND shullbit? Point is, if the title had anything to do with ND football, I-and many others-would not go near it, but since the title has everything to do with Marquette Basketball...well...I guess I hope you understand my frustrations.

[State Street Warrior]

Exactly, mods is there any way to split this into two threads?

[rocky_warrior]

Exactly, mods is there any way to split this into two threads?

Done.  And moved to the superbar...