Catholic school conference

[HutchwasClutch]

With there being a strong possibility the Big Ten tearing apart the Big East as we know it, here is the direction I would like to see MU go:  STOP aligning ourselves in conferences with football schools!  If we don't separate from these schools where football is the primary revenue source, we're always going to be ripe for the picking from the power football conferences.

Let's say the Big Ten takes 4 or 5 of our football schools and the Big East replaces them with whomever you care to speculate.  What's to stop the threat of the ACC or SEC from raiding the Big East football schools again at some point? 

Sports are all about copying what your rivals are doing.  If the Big Ten goes to 16 teams, you can bet the ACC and SEC won't be far behind.  Right now both of those conferences stand at 12 schools.

Presuming the Big Ten completes it's raid-let's form an alignment with the other schools in the Big East without D-1A football, where basketball is the primary revenue source.   Here's what it may look like:

1) MU
2) Georgetown
3) 'Nova
4) St. John's
5) Providence
6) Seton Hall
7) DePaul

I don't think Notre Dame is joining any football conference and they have always expressed being happy as part of the Big East in other sports.  They are too elitist to think their football team needs to be part of a conference and they may be right-for God sake, they have their own football network!  So they could be school #8.

Then let's go get Xavier and Dayton from the A-10. 

IMO, that would be a very strong basketball league and you would still have the majority of major eastern media outlets (NY, DC, NJ, Philly) covered and still also have Chicago and the state of Ohio represented as well.

We aren't and never will be a football school, let's stop aligning ourselves in conferences where football is critical, or else we'll just keep getting gobbled up and scrambling to find a new conference.    The conference I propose above is one that I could see it's member schools both prospering and being happy together. 

[reinko]

Weird, never saw this before.   

[chapman]

How innovative 

And no, a conference where we're the second biggest school doesn't get covered by many media outlets.

[GGGG]

1. That really isn't that good of a conference.

2. As I have said before, why the "Catholic" limitation?

[M@RQUETTEW@RRIORS]

If you can add Xavier and Butler that is pretty good.  Its about as good as the Big Ten is today in bball anyways.

MU, Georgetown, 'Nova, Xavier and Butler are as good as any top 5 that the Big Ten has fielded lately.

[Litehouse]

Would Nova and Georgetown go for that?  or would they try to upgrade their football and possibly join the ACC?  Nova football may already be better than Duke, so they wouldn't have far to go.

[HutchwasClutch]

"And no, a conference where we're the second biggest school doesn't get covered by many media outlets."

Chapman-what world do you live in-DePaul and St. John's are much larger than MU and Notre Dame is as well.   We are definitely not the second largest.

My comment about the media outlets is merely to point out that many major media outlets would have a member school and therefore help conference exposure.

[chapman]

Would Nova and Georgetown go for that?  or would they try to upgrade their football and possibly join the ACC?  Nova football may already be better than Duke, so they wouldn't have far to go.

But why does the ACC take Nova with a football team that is brand new to their level?  There would be a solid 15 schools better suited for the ACC to take.  

"And no, a conference where we're the second biggest school doesn't get covered by many media outlets."

Chapman-what world do you live in-DePaul and St. John's are much larger than MU and Notre Dame is as well.   We are definitely not the second largest.

My comment about the media outlets is merely to point out that many major media outlets would have a member school and therefore help conference exposure.

A conference without at least a handful of large state schools is a conference not getting on television.  Particularly when your "big" schools are terrible at the only sport they play.

[Skatastrophy]

"And no, a conference where we're the second biggest school doesn't get covered by many media outlets."

Chapman-what world do you live in-DePaul and St. John's are much larger than MU and Notre Dame is as well.   We are definitely not the second largest.

My comment about the media outlets is merely to point out that many major media outlets would have a member school and therefore help conference exposure.

Hutch, you're getting hated on because this topic comes up every few months and it's been talked to death.  Searching before posting will garner you fewer snide responses.  Here are a few that turned up in 30 seconds of me looking around (if you're interested in reading everyone's thoughts on this topic instead of defending yourself).

Big East or Midwest Catholic Conference?
Post alignment life- The Catholic Basketball League
The Big East of Tomorrow, or shall I say Catholic Collegiate Conference?!!
The Catholic League of Extraordinary Gentlemen

[HutchwasClutch]

Sultan of South Wayne-you say it's not a good conference, care to expand on that at all?

What is not to like, first of all half of the schools were NCAA tourney teams this year.

G'Town and Nova are perennial top 25 teams.  We've made the dance 5 straight years.   Xavier has been a regular NCAA participant the last 10 years, including an Elite Eight I believe in '04.    DePaul has great tradition and they finally seem to have hired a competent coach.  There is no reason Purnell can't get it rolling there again.

Lastly, all of these schools are known for strong basketball programs and have experienced big-time success.  Some may have fallen on hard times for different reasons, but they are all recognized b-ball programs and all of the institutions seem committed to winning.

As far as the Catholic "limitation"-my point is let's admit who we are and line ourselves up with similar schools-were area  small, private, Jesuit institution.  Why live in a dreamworld that we can align with the big state schools and there won't be any repercussions long-term.  We were fortunate to land with the Big East when the dominoes fell after the ACC expanded.  We may not be fortunate again, especially if we aren't proactive and look to the long-term.

[MUBurrow]

I think the conference commissioners should have a fantasy draft of the teams in this year's tournament, making four 16 team superconferences. 

[Norm]

OK, I posted this info in another thread on a conference like this, but here is some history on some of the schools that could ultimately make up a new conference. I mostly pulled them from the Big East, A-10, Horizon and Missouri Valley Conference, and I tried to include teams like Duquesne and Detroit-Mercy to include schools in larger media markets:

Marquette University – Big East
Milwaukee, WI
Catholic – Jesuit
11,548 Students (8,048 undergraduates)
Facility: Bradley Center (19,000)
28 NCAA tournaments: 2010, 2009, 2008, 2007, 2006, 2003, 2002, 1997, 1996, 1994, 1993, 1983, 1982, 1980, 1979, 1978, 1977, 1976, 1975, 1974, 1973, 1972, 1971, 1969, 1961, 1959, 1955
8 Sweet 16's: 2003, 1994, 1979, 1977, 1976, 1974, 1969, 1955
5 Elite Eight's: 2003, 1977, 1976, 1974, 1969, 1955
3 Final Fours: 2003, 1977, 1974
1 Runner Up: 1974
1 Championship: 1977

DePaul University – Big East
Chicago, IL
Catholic – Congregation of the Mission (Vincentian)
25,072 students (16,199 undergraduates)
Facility: Allstate Arena (18,500)
22 NCAA tournaments: 2004, 2000, 1992, 1991, 1989*, 1988*, 1987*, 1986*, 1985, 1984, 1982, 1981, 1980, 1979, 1978, 1976, 1965, 1960, 1959, 1956, 1953, 1943 (* vacated by NCAA)
2 Final Fours: 1979, 1943

Villanova University – Big East
Philadelphia, PA
Catholic – Friars of the Order of St. Augustine
9,535 Students (6,425 undergraduates)
Facilities: The Pavilion (6,500 capacity) Wachovia Center (18,000+)
31 NCAA tournaments: 2010, 2009, 2008, 2007, 2006, 2005, 1999, 1997, 1996, 1995, 1991, 1990, 1988, 1986, 1985, 1984, 1983, 1982, 1981, 1980, 1978, 1972, 1971*, 1970, 1969, 1964, 1962, 1955, 1951, 1949, 1939 (*NCAA vacated)
18 Sweet 16's: 2009, 2008, 2006, 2005, 1988, 1985, 1983, 1982, 1978, 1972, 1971*, 1970, 1964, 1962, 1955, 1951, 1949, 1939
12 Elite Eight's: 2009, 2006, 1988, 1985, 1983, 1982, 1978, 1971*, 1970, 1962, 1949, 1939
4 Final Four's: 2009, 1985, 1971*, 1939
1 Runner Up: 1971*
Championship: 1985

Georgetown University – Big East
Washington, DC
Catholic – Jesuit
15,318 Students (7,092 undergraduates)
Facility: Verizon Center (20,600 capacity)
26 NCAA tournaments: 2010, 2008, 2007, 2006, 2001, 1997, 1996, 1995, 1994, 1992, 1991, 1990, 1989, 1988, 1987, 1986, 1985, 1984, 1983, 1982, 1981, 1980, 1979, 1976, 1975, 1943
11 Sweet 16's: 2007, 2006, 2001, 1996, 1995, 1989, 1987, 1985, 1984, 1982, 1980
7 Elite Eight's: 2007, 1996, 1989, 1987, 1985, 1984, 1980
5 Final Four's: 2007, 1985, 1984, 1982, 1943
3 Runner Up's: 1985, 1982, 1943
Championship: 1984

Providence University – Big East
Providence, RI
Catholic – Dominican Friars
5,806 Students (3,938 undergraduates)
Facility: Dunkin Donuts Center (12,500 capacity)
15 NCAA tournaments: 2004, 2001, 1997, 1994, 1990, 1989, 1987, 1978, 1977, 1974, 1973, 1972, 1966, 1965, 1964
5 Sweet 16's: 1997, 1987, 1974, 1973, 1965
4 Elite Eight's: 1997, 1987, 1973, 1965
2 Final Four's: 1987, 1973

Seton Hall University – Big East
South Orange, NJ
Catholic – Archdiocese of Newark
9,800 Students (5,300 undergraduates)
Facility: Prudential Center (18,500)
9 NCAA tournaments: 2006, 2004, 2000, 1994, 1993, 1992, 1991, 1989, 1988
4 Sweet 16's: 2000, 1992, 1991, 1989
2 Elite Eight's: 1991, 1989
1 Final Four: 1989
1 Runner Up: 1989

St. John's University – Big East
New York, NY (Queens)
Catholic – Congregation of the Mission (Vincentians)
21,346 Students (15,092 undergraduates)
Facilities: Carnesecca Arena (6,008) Madison Square Garden (20,000)
26 NCAA tournament's: 2002, 2000, 1999, 1998, 1993, 1992, 1991, 1990, 1988, 1987, 1986, 1985, 1984, 1983, 1982, 1980, 1979, 1978, 1977, 1976, 1973, 1969, 1968, 1967, 1961, 1952, 1951
6 Elite Eight's: 1999, 1991, 1985, 1979, 1952, 1951
2 Final Four's: 1985, 1952
1 Runner Up: 1952

Duquesne University – A-10
Pittsburgh, PA
Catholic – Congregation of the Holy Spirit
10,363 Students (5,858 undergraduates)
Facility: A.J. Palumbo Center  (5,358 capacity)
5 NCAA tournaments: 1977, 1971, 1969, 1952, 1940
1 Final Four (1940)
Overall record: 1256-943

St. Louis University – A-10
St. Louis, MO
Catholic – Jesuit
12,700 Students (7,800 undergraduates)
Facility: Chaifetz Arena (10,600) Dedicated in 2008
6 NCAA tournaments: 2000, 1998, 1995, 1994, 1957, 1952

Xavier University – A-10
Cincinnati, OH
Catholic – Jesuit
6,966 Students (4,228 undergraduates)
Facility: Cintas Center (10,250)
21 NCAA tournaments: 2010, 2009, 2008, 2007, 2006, 2004, 2003, 2002, 2001, 1998, 1997, 1995, 1993, 1991, 1990, 1989, 1988, 1987, 1986, 1983, 1961
5 Sweet 16's: 2010, 2009, 2008, 2004, 1990
2 Elite Eights: 2008, 2004

Dayton University – A-10
Dayton, OH
Catholic – Society of Mary (Marianists)
11,000 Students (7,500 undergraduates)
Facility: UD Arena (13,455)
14 NCAA tournaments: 2009, 2004, 2003, 2000, 1990, 1985, 1984, 1974, 1970, 1969, 1967, 1966, 1965, 1952
6 Sweet 16's: 1984, 1974, 1967, 1966, 1965, 1952
3 Elite Eight's: 1984, 1967
1 Final Four: 1967
1 Runner Up: 1967

University of Detroit Mercy – Horizon
Detroit, MI
Catholic – Jesuit
5,700 Students
Facility: Calihan Hall (8,295 capacity)
5 NCAA tournaments: 1999, 1998, 1979, 1977, 1962
1 Sweet 16: 1977

Butler University – Horizon
Indianapolis, IN
Private - Founded by attorney and abolitionist Ovid Butler
4,512 Students (3,897 undergraduates)
Facility: Hinkle Fieldhouse (10,000 capacity)
10 NCAA tournaments: 2010, 2009, 2008, 2007, 2003, 2001, 2000, 1998, 1997, 1962
4 Sweet 16's: 2010, 2007, 2003, 1962
1 Elite Eight: 2010
1 Final Four: 2010
1 Runner-Up: 2010

Bradley University – Missouri Valley Conference
Peoria, IL
Private
5,801 Students (5,061 undergraduates)
Facility: Carver Arena (11,600 capacity)
8 NCAA tournaments: 2006, 1996, 1988, 1986, 1980, 1955, 1954, 1950
3 Sweet 16's: 2006, 1954, 1950
2 Elite Eight's: 1954, 1950
1 Final Four: 1954
1 Runner Up: 1954

Creighton University – Missouri Valley Conference
Omaha, NE
Catholic – Jesuit
7,385 Students (4,133 undergraduates)
Facility: Qwest Center (17,560 capacity)
16 NCAA tournaments: 2007, 2005, 2003, 2002, 2001, 2000, 1999, 1991, 1989, 1981, 1978, 1975, 1974, 1964, 1962, 1941
4 Sweet 16's: 1974, 1964, 1962, 1941

Drake University – Missouri Valley Conference
Des Moines, IA
Private
5,221 Students (3,164 undergraduates)
Facility:
4 NCAA tournaments: 2008, 1971, 1970, 1969
2 Sweet 16's: 1971, 1970
2 Elite Eight's: 1971, 1970
1 Final Four: 1969

[Ari Gold]

To add to Norms post, even though Butler and Drake are just private not catholic:
I was discussing this as well recently and came up with this as list of schools for "the conference":
Georgetown
Villanova
MU
Creighton
Xavier
Dayton
Duquesne
St. Louis
St. Johns
Providence
DePaul
Detroit Mercy

Not remarkably competitive, there is a real fall off after Xavier. However that list covers most major media markets from the mid west to the coast, north of DC. If ND stayed independent for football they could easily join this conference for Basketball. I figured those schools would be easier than trying to include the WCC teams, even though every School but Pepperdine in the WCC is Catholic.

Here are the list of other Catholic in the general area.
La Salle University
Loyola Chicago
St. Bonaventure
St. Joes
Fordham
Canisius College
Fairfield University
Iona College
Loyola University Maryland
Manhattan College
Niagara University
Saint Peter's College
Siena College
Mount St. Mary's University
Sacred Heart University
Saint Francis University
St. Francis College

Arguments *could* be made to add the NY schools (Manhattan, Fordham) or a Chicago school, but after those 12 from the first list, you'd be really scraping the bottom of the barrel for other teams.

[MUinCO]

Sultan of South Wayne-you say it's not a good conference, care to expand on that at all?

What is not to like, first of all half of the schools were NCAA tourney teams this year.

G'Town and Nova are perennial top 25 teams.  We've made the dance 5 straight years.   Xavier has been a regular NCAA participant the last 10 years, including an Elite Eight I believe in '04.    DePaul has great tradition and they finally seem to have hired a competent coach.  There is no reason Purnell can't get it rolling there again.

Lastly, all of these schools are known for strong basketball programs and have experienced big-time success.  Some may have fallen on hard times for different reasons, but they are all recognized b-ball programs and all of the institutions seem committed to winning.

As far as the Catholic "limitation"-my point is let's admit who we are and line ourselves up with similar schools-were area  small, private, Jesuit institution.  Why live in a dreamworld that we can align with the big state schools and there won't be any repercussions long-term.  We were fortunate to land with the Big East when the dominoes fell after the ACC expanded.  We may not be fortunate again, especially if we aren't proactive and look to the long-term.

Sorry, but I think that is a not a very good looking conference IMO.  These teams don't exist in a vacuum, meaning...sure there are several NCAA teams and "perennial top 25 teams" in your proposed list, but I would argue they enjoy this success in large part because of the conference they live in (just look up recruit comments every time they commit to a BE school).

Without the good bb schools like UConn, Syracuse, WVA, Pitt, etc. there is a strong possibility that TV coverage goes way down, interest from recruits go way down, and pretty soon "perennial top 25" will be a distant memory as we wallow in our own Horizon League Hell waiting for lightning to strike every 10 years or so.

[TJ]

Sorry, but I think that is a not a very good looking conference IMO.  These teams don't exist in a vacuum, meaning...sure there are several NCAA teams and "perennial top 25 teams" in your proposed list, but I would argue they enjoy this success in large part because of the conference they live in (just look up recruit comments every time they commit to a BE school).

Without the good bb schools like UConn, Syracuse, WVA, Pitt, etc. there is a strong possibility that TV coverage goes way down, interest from recruits go way down, and pretty soon "perennial top 25" will be a distant memory as we wallow in our own Horizon League Hell waiting for lightning to strike every 10 years or so.

+1

[HutchwasClutch]

MUinCO-I agree with some of your points.  The conference I am envisioning is no doubt a dramatically watered down Big East.   

I'm a realist and I think this is realistically the best we can hope for as far as conference affiliation for the LONG TERM.

Football drives the NCAA revenue train and we are not ever going to have that, especially at the 1-A level again. 

I think this will be MU's best option at survival long-term.  And also, just because some of the programs I name (Seton Hall, Providence, St. John's, DePaul) are down right now, doesn't mean it has to stay that way.  Would MU have been attractive at all to the Big East in the late 80's or when Crean took over?  Most programs ebb and flow over the years.  I just think all of those programs have attained big time success before and they all seem committed to it now. 

Finally, a brutal 16 team league without some of the so called conference powers around anymore may allow some of these struggling programs to get on their feet again and achieve success instead of the conference cannibalizing itself every year. 

[GGGG]

Sultan of South Wayne-you say it's not a good conference, care to expand on that at all?

What is not to like, first of all half of the schools were NCAA tourney teams this year.

G'Town and Nova are perennial top 25 teams.  We've made the dance 5 straight years.   Xavier has been a regular NCAA participant the last 10 years, including an Elite Eight I believe in '04.    DePaul has great tradition and they finally seem to have hired a competent coach.  There is no reason Purnell can't get it rolling there again.

Lastly, all of these schools are known for strong basketball programs and have experienced big-time success.  Some may have fallen on hard times for different reasons, but they are all recognized b-ball programs and all of the institutions seem committed to winning.

As far as the Catholic "limitation"-my point is let's admit who we are and line ourselves up with similar schools-were area  small, private, Jesuit institution.  Why live in a dreamworld that we can align with the big state schools and there won't be any repercussions long-term.  We were fortunate to land with the Big East when the dominoes fell after the ACC expanded.  We may not be fortunate again, especially if we aren't proactive and look to the long-term.

The conference you aoutlines has a few good schools that have been Top 20 recently, and a couple of final fours, but has too many has-beens like Providence, St. Johns, etc.  I mean, it might be the best MU could hope for but honestly, the large BCS conferences are increasingly where the money and the talent goes.

As far as my Catholic comment, adding that limitation automatically excludes a school like Butler. There is no reason to have that sort of exclusion.

[HutchwasClutch]

I wouldn't be opposed to a school like Butler and would be fine with dropping the Catholic moniker to the conference if it would mean adding a high level program (or two or three) like theirs.   

I guess the reason I am thinking a Catholic league is to align schools that share a common bond, mission, whatever you want to to call it, in hopes that maybe they would be more committed to each other for the long haul and not just until the next best opportunity comes along. 

The main thing I am truly hoping for is MU stops lining up with the 1-A football schools.  Those schools are always going to be looking for something bigger and better (i.e. more revenue potential) and in the end we're likely to get screwed. 

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Sorry, but I think that is a not a very good looking conference IMO.  These teams don't exist in a vacuum, meaning...sure there are several NCAA teams and "perennial top 25 teams" in your proposed list, but I would argue they enjoy this success in large part because of the conference they live in (just look up recruit comments every time they commit to a BE school).

Without the good bb schools like UConn, Syracuse, WVA, Pitt, etc. there is a strong possibility that TV coverage goes way down, interest from recruits go way down, and pretty soon "perennial top 25" will be a distant memory as we wallow in our own Horizon League Hell waiting for lightning to strike every 10 years or so.

I agree with you, but it wasn't that long ago that WVA and PITT were considered the weak BBall schools and St. John's, Georgetown and Nova were the strength of the conference.

Recent history is important, and I don't really see PITT and WVA dropping off, but SJU, GU, and NOVA are still traditional BEAST powers, so there is something to be said for that.