MBOA MIGHT BE LEAVING THE PROGRAM

[tower912]

Comparing Clark and Bowen, two guys who never stepped foot on campus, with Matthews and Mortenson, two guys who made it to campus only to be dismissed for off-court reasons is disingenuous at best.     If a non-basketball playing high school senior who wants to go to MU changes his mind or commits a crime that precludes him from coming to MU, it is different than a freshman at MU committing a crime or dropping out.    And counting Acker as a departure,  seeing how he started and played 35 minutes is cuckoo.   Or, as BMA stated, Mo was psychic, much like you must be projecting a transfer that hasn't yet and may never happen (Mbao).    Roseboro and Saunders, I will give you, though it has been hinted many places that Saunders couldn't be admitted.      So, Hazel, Christopherson, Mbakwe, Roseboro, Maymon.    Who did Buzz run off?    Maymon, err, no.   Hazel, maybe.  Roseboro, depends on whether you believer Buzz and Roseboro, or if you believe Roseboro's coach and the badger fans.  SC, maybe, though I think it was more about being a fan of TC rather than Buzz running him off.     Mbakwe, it wasn't Buzz.  Pretty sure Buzz would have like to keep a physical PF

[NersEllenson]

Buzz:  2 years, 9 departures, 4.5 per season:
1.  Christopherson2.  Mbakwe3.  Roseboro
4.  Maymon
5.  Acker (later reinstated)
6.  Clark (recruited/never played)
7.  Bowen (backed out of commitment)
8.  Hazel
9.  Mbao

Crean - 9 years, 13 departures, 1.4 per season.
1. Hester
2. Menard
3. Howard
4. ODB
5. James Matthews (recruited/never played)
6. Mason
7. Bradley
8. Bell
9. Mortenson (recruited/never played)
10. Christian
11. Berkowitz
12. Amo
13. Saunders (recruited/never played)

Sorry, but your list for Buzz transfers is filled with desperation grabs - as opposed to actual, hard facts on the Crean list.  All those colored in Red above are reaches - and not Buzz recruits - other than Clark/Bowen who never made it to campus, never signed LOI's.  Bowen was recruited over with the Jamail Jones signing, and Bowen chose to look elsewhere.  Hazel played a decent amount in the first half of the 2008-2009 season, and played decently, but then never saw another minute on the floor for all of Big East play - you don't think something happened of a disciplinary reason??  Buzz didn't ruin the guys future college career, but he clearly disciplined the kid significantly, by not playing him anymore and essentially requiring him to transfer.  Why put Acker on your list??  Acker didn't transfer.  As has been pointed out - why say Acker only was asked back after the Cadougan injury - when Mo came back well before the Cadougan injury.

It is so transparent that you have an agenda against Buzz, or at very least a very rose-colored vision of Tom Crean - and to see TC not reflect as well against Buzz is too much for you to handle, and therefore you resort to flawed logic/reason.  I personally don't have much of an issue with the transfers under TC - stuff happens, and it always takes two to tango - the fault of a transfer is rarely just a 1-sided issue.  I just take issue to the fact you are trying to paint Buzz in an inaccurate way.  The transfer of players he inherited or who were Tom Crean recruits have no business being counted - they don't count inherited runners against a pitchers ERA (if they score after a new pitcher comes in the game).  Same concept here.

[Marquette84]

Comparing Clark and Bowen, two guys who never stepped foot on campus, with Matthews and Mortenson, two guys who made it to campus only to be dismissed for off-court reasons is disingenuous at best.  

I don't think I made the comparison of Clark and Bowen to Matthews and Mortenson other than to point out that none of them played for the program.

--I directly compared Hazel to Matthews, Bell and Mortenson.   

--I directly compared Clark to Saunders

--I made the comment that I don't recall any Crean recruits who reneged on a verbal.

   If a non-basketball playing high school senior who wants to go to MU changes his mind or commits a crime that precludes him from coming to MU, it is different than a freshman at MU committing a crime or dropping out.  

You are correct.

My point is that when Crean was coaching, the situations like Saunders were used to highlight Crean's "transfer problem"

I'm happy if we exclude them--but we have to do so similarly for both coaches.

Its not fair to give Buzz a pass for Clark, but blame Crean for losing Saunders. 

 And counting Acker as a departure,  seeing how he started and played 35 minutes is cuckoo.  

Maybe you missed the news:
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/49105126.html

 Roseboro and Saunders, I will give you, though it has been hinted many places that Saunders couldn't be admitted.      So, Hazel, Christopherson, Mbakwe, Roseboro, Maymon.    Who did Buzz run off?    Maymon, err, no.   Hazel, maybe.  Roseboro, depends on whether you believer Buzz and Roseboro, or if you believe Roseboro's coach and the badger fans.  SC, maybe, though I think it was more about being a fan of TC rather than Buzz running him off.     Mbakwe, it wasn't Buzz.  Pretty sure Buzz would have like to keep a physical PF

We could go through the same exercise with Crean's recruits.  I'm not going there.

My point is this:  People on this board cited the sheer number of transfers to accuse Crean of having a "transfer problem"--they never went player by player and attempted to determine which players had outside influence, which players had offcourt issues, and which players simply wanted to transfer. 

Those same people are either silent about it today or they are defending Buzz.

[KipsBayEagle]

If Mbao wasn't gonna transfer before, he will after he reads all this.  jesus, just kill this thread.

[jficke13]

+1 the internet anonymity lets people say things they otherwise never would and it can start to go downhill quickly.

[Pakuni]

Buzz:  2 years, 9 departures, 4.5 per season:
1.  Christopherson
2.  Mbakwe
3.  Roseboro
4.  Maymon
5.  Acker (later reinstated)
6.  Clark (recruited/never played)
7.  Bowen (backed out of commitment)
8.  Hazel
9.  Mbao

Crean - 9 years, 13 departures, 1.4 per season.
1. Hester
2. Menard
3. Howard
4. ODB
5. James Matthews (recruited/never played)
6. Mason
7. Bradley
8. Bell
9. Mortenson (recruited/never played)
10. Christian
11. Berkowitz
12. Amo
13. Saunders (recruited/never played)

Wait ... so guys who never actually left Marquette (Acker, Mbao ... at least for now) or ever even signed LOIs (Bowen, Clark) now count as departures?
That seems fair and accurate.

But if that's your standard, why no mention of Anthony Green? Surely he was a Tom Crean departure, right?

Speaking of fair and accurate, Mortensen and Matthews were a little more than recruited/never played. Both, in fact, signed LOIs, attended classes at Marquette and appeared in games for Marquette wearing a Marquette uniform (Mortensen in practice games, but still ...).

[Hards Alumni]

How am I biased?

Please, specific examples.  

Your posts speak for themselves.  You cherry pick just as much as Hayward.  You are changing the argument to fit your agenda.  

Buzz:  2 years, 3 departures, 1.5 per season:
1.  Roseboro
2.  Maymon
3.  Hazel

Crean - 9 years, 11 departures, 1.2 per season.
1. Hester
2. Menard
3. Howard
4. ODB
5. Mason
6. Bradley
7. Bell
8. Christian
9. Berkowitz
10. Amoroso
11. Matthews

I edited your list for REALITY.  You are naming players Buzz "lost" who never were even officially on the team!!!  But that isn't biased?  LOL.

Mbakwe and Christopherson were obviously gone the day Buzz signed on.  Adding them to the list is disingeniuos at best.  

The problem is, both of the lists were too long.  Including players who never stepped foot on campus doesn't make sense.  Did they ever play?  No.  Were they ever photographed in a uniform even?  No.  Did they practice with the team?  No!  So how could they 'leave' if they were never at MU to begin with?

[Marquette84]

Sorry, but your list for Buzz transfers is filled with desperation grabs - as opposed to actual, hard facts on the Crean list.  All those colored in Red above are reaches - and not Buzz recruits - other than Clark/Bowen who never made it to campus, never signed LOI's.  Bowen was recruited over with the Jamail Jones signing, and Bowen chose to look elsewhere.  Hazel played a decent amount in the first half of the 2008-2009 season, and played decently, but then never saw another minute on the floor for all of Big East play - you don't think something happened of a disciplinary reason??  Buzz didn't ruin the guys future college career, but he clearly disciplined the kid significantly, by not playing him anymore and essentially requiring him to transfer.  Why put Acker on your list??  Acker didn't transfer.  As has been pointed out - why say Acker only was asked back after the Cadougan injury - when Mo came back well before the Cadougan injury.

I took a very simply approach:
Did a recruit fufill his eligiblity or not?  

You accuse me of an agenda, but clearly YOU want to set different standards.  Mortenson is an "actual, hard facts" against Crean, but Buzz gets a pass on Hazel?  Come on.  That's not even within the realm of reasonableness.  Mortenson couldn't play based on the NCAA rules--Hazel could have been forgiven and returned.

Ditto with Hester-- a "actual, hard fact" against Crean, but Christopherson and Mbakwe are no fault of Buzz?  Come on--what is the difference?  All were players inherited from the prior coach.  

It is so transparent that you have an agenda against Buzz, or at very least a very rose-colored vision of Tom Crean - and to see TC not reflect as well against Buzz is too much for you to handle, and therefore you resort to flawed logic/reason.  I personally don't have much of an issue with the transfers under TC - stuff happens, and it always takes two to tango - the fault of a transfer is rarely just a 1-sided issue.  I just take issue to the fact you are trying to paint Buzz in an inaccurate way.  The transfer of players he inherited or who were Tom Crean recruits have no business being counted - they don't count inherited runners against a pitchers ERA (if they score after a new pitcher comes in the game).  Same concept here.

My problem is your double standard.  You didn't put Hester in red, did you?  You didn't put Mortenson, Matthews or Bell in red.  You didn't put Saunders in red.

Why not?  Don't they have good excuses?

And yet, YOU accuse ME of having an agenda.

If you had come out and made changes on both coaches lists--ie you don't think players inherited from another coach should count--then I might inclined to think that you wanted a fair comparison and based it on principle.  But you very clearly simply made excuses for anyone who left under Buzz, and continued to blame Crean for players who left under very similar circumstances.  

[Ari Gold]

Question: This debate over Crean's losses and Buzz's losses have me wondering where do they fit into the bigger picture? How do they compare to other WI coaches/BE coaches/B11 coaches?

Just seems like this debate is all over nothing if other coaches lose equal or more recruits

[Pakuni]

I took a very simply approach:
Did a recruit fufill his eligiblity or not?  

In that case, you better add Dwyane Wade to your list.
So far we're up to two names you conveniently left off.

[Marquette84]

Mbakwe and Christopherson were obviously gone the day Buzz signed on.  Adding them to the list is disingeniuos at best.  

We'll disagree on this point.  

Christopherson didn't announce he was leaving until after Buzz was hired.  Awfully coincidental--he could have made the announcement April 1st or 2nd, when everyone was being asked about their future plans.  He could have said "I don't plan on returning anyway, so Crean's new job doesn't affect me at all."  That didn't happen.  He was obviously waiting until he saw who the new coach was.  When it was Buzz, he left.

Mbakwe didn't leave until the day before classes started.  Five months is a long time for an "obviously gone" player to stick around.

 Including players who never stepped foot on campus doesn't make sense.  Did they ever play?  No.  Were they ever photographed in a uniform even?  No.  Did they practice with the team?  No!  So how could they 'leave' if they were never at MU to begin with?

That's a reasonable argument.

I think the counter is reasonable as well.  

Here's why I included such players, which I hope you'll at least grant has some merit:

1. An incoming recruit--verbal or signed--occupies one of a limited number of available scholarships.  Two negative consequences--a) the coaching staff may have backed off recruiting for another player thinking they have a verbal in hand. b) other players that would have committed to you go elsewhere thinking they won't get playing time.  

Its a reasonable argument that Clark's commitment a year and a half early precluded Buzz from getting serious with some other recruits.  Therefore his loss affects the team even though he didn't make it onto the formal roster.  

2. Losing a verbal commitment IS considered a loss by the team.  Just ask UW fans about Vander Blue.  Or MU fans about Ladaryl Billingsley.  Those players never suited up, played a game or appeared in the team photo.  Yet MU and UW fans will tell you that their teams lost those players.

[cheebs09]

If Mbao wasn't gonna transfer before, he will after he reads all this.  jesus, just kill this thread.

+100 agree totally. I had class with Yous last semester and he was there every day, sitting front row (made it tough for some of us to see at times haha), and as far as I could tell always turned in our homework. He seemed like a really nice guy. In some of the videos we saw he seemed to have a good relationship with teammates. Some people seem to be cheering for a transfer but remember Otule looked lost out there his freshman year. Who was our most improved player going into this year by coach's and player's opinions? Many said Otule. People are penciling him in as a starter next year. I think a redshirt would have been beneficial to Yous, if for not for basketball reasons but just so he could adjust. I don't think he has been in America for more than a few years. Either way I hope people will let it play out and I hope he stay because I still have high hopes for him.

[KipsBayEagle]

Maybe some of these kids transferred because they were afraid a conversation they had at the Sigma Chi party would find its way onto a message board.  I reiterate, just kill this thread.  It is embarrassing.

[Marquette84]

In that case, you better add Dwyane Wade to your list.
So far we're up to two names you conveniently left off.

You're correct.

So I'll adjust the tally:
Crean--15 players/recruits over 9 years - 1.6 per year
Buzz-- 9 players in 2 years--4.5 per year.

I appreciate your corrections.  

BTW, there was nothing convenient about it.  I would be extremely pleased if Buzz recruits players like Dwyane Wade.

Although to be fair, nobody used Wade as example of Crean's "transfer problem" either.  

[ChicosBailBonds]

This is a load of crap. When did Blankson EVER say this? Just because you have formed this opinion, does not make it true. He may have regretted not being part of the FF run, but he had a nice last couple years at UNLV.

How often will Buzz lose starters like Blankson and Mason to transfer? I'm going to wager that that will not happen anytime soon. For chrissakes, Mason was one of Crean's most highly touted recruits. It doesn't matter at all what he did after he left. The kid was a starter...or at least playing starters minutes...and he still decided he'd rather live in Baton Rouge than play for a horse' ass. Crean is still losing starters...including former MU recruit Nick Williams last year.

I don't know why you keep defending transfers under Crean. It's obvious that one of the main reasons for leaving for many of these players is because Crean is a douche bag. You've admitted as much. Why keep defending him when you admit he's an assh*le? That's what I don't get.

PRN, ODB wanted to be featured as an outside player.  That's why he transferred.  He became an "outside player" at UNLV, where he chucked the ball up at an alarming rate.  It got him...nowhere.  Not to the NBA, no Final Four appearance.   I've heard through many an internal source that he regrets it.  He regrets not playing with Wade, he regrets transferring and missing out on what he did.

Mason....as I asked before, how did that work out for him?  He got WORSE after his transfer, not better.

Some of these kids think they are NBA bound, but when reality sets in and they realize they aren't, they leave.  You can blame the coach....I blame both.  Kids with incredibly high and ridiculous expectations and coaches telling them during the recruiting process that they will be the next Michael Jordan.

Believe what you want, that's what I have heard and I trust those sources at a high level.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Three things:
1. Chicos we get it, you believe Mr. Hayward changed his name or signed up for a new account.  Frankly , I'm not sure that really bothers me.  It seems to bother you as it dominates many of your posts.

2. Why as a collective fan base, do we consistently misspell Mbao's name?

3. I cannot wait for the signing period to be over so we can discuss who is on the team and next year's lineup rather than guessing and judging people who may or may not be on the team.

1)  It has nothing to do with "believing it"....it's the same IP address. 

2)  When a guy tells you to go unnatural carnal knowledge off multiple times in private emails and does a few other things, well yeah, he gets in my cross hairs

3)  I'm just trying to help him with his spelling and improve his role with Robby

[ChicosBailBonds]

wow i think your lust louds your judgemtn.  Forget the names.  My issue with Crean was twoo fold. 1.  he brought in 2-3 terrible players for every good one.  causing us to always be incredibly thin.  2.  I did not have ahuge problem with his transfers except that with Crean they were in a number of cases starters, team captains, players that were to be heavily counted on.

None of those issues pertain to Buzz at this point.  If buzz signes 2-3  one and 2 star players a year that prove to be way over their head and then leave or dont leave and leave us with 5-6-7 BE caliber players and in addition to this if he has a number of those good players also transfer then I will have a problem with Buzz like I did with Crean in this area.

I do think MBoa will be a decent player over time.  but that is my opinion if Buzz looks at it a MBAo has reached a celing or will never get any better and gleans his 12-13th man then that is Buzzes perogative.  What cant you understand about that?  Mabe Mbao does not work hard?  Maybe Mbao is not the odd man out if he brings someone else in? there are a million different things that could happen.  But until Buzz has two returning starters that have been named team captain transfer out I will not compare him to Crean.  Also, Buzzes 1 and 2 star recruits have heretofore proven to be vastly underated by the gurus.  creans 1 and 2 star recruits were dead on nailed.  Showing one of two things either Crean has zero eye for talent or he cannot attract btter players.  Two great reasons for him to no longer be coaching at MU ...not matter how your lust for him clouds your judgement

Are you drunk again or is the keyboard stuck with some "sticky residue" that is causing you to type this way? 

[JMcSteal]

Marquette84 get over yourself, seriously

[ChicosBailBonds]

Marquette84 get over yourself, seriously

Both sides make legit points.  MU84 is correct that some people that think Crean is Hitler conveniently do not apply the same standards to the new coach at times.  I assume that is what he is trying to illustrate.

[Canadian Dimes]

Mu 84 i think you babble to such a degree that either you cannot follow your own logic or you hope no one else can follow your illogic.

I will break it down into bite size chunks for you and , iguess me.

How is it that you compare Mortensen and Mathhews for Crean to Bowen and clark for Buzz.  matthews and Mortensen verballed, signed leters of Intent , enrolled in the university, took classes and practiced with the team yet did not play and then left. 

How , even in your world, are those anywehere close to Clark and Bowen.  two players who merely verballed to MArquette.  I will hang up and listen to your answer.  Please try to keep it under a page. 

[chapman]

Don't forget that Justin Coleman had a "silent" verbal to MU.  Buzz clearly lost him!  Then again, if it's a silent verbal does it not count simply because few knew about it?

[brewcity77]

Jeez, Crean is gone. 2 years gone. End of discussion. Why does anyone really care to bring him up? He's not coming back, so looking at the future of MU and discussing Crean is simply silly and inane. If you're so anti-Buzz, talk about who should replace him. Still a stupid argument to make, but at least it would be one somewhat grounded in reality, not frozen in a past that will never be repeated.

[Hards Alumni]

We'll disagree on this point.  

Christopherson didn't announce he was leaving until after Buzz was hired.  Awfully coincidental--he could have made the announcement April 1st or 2nd, when everyone was being asked about their future plans.  He could have said "I don't plan on returning anyway, so Crean's new job doesn't affect me at all."  That didn't happen.  He was obviously waiting until he saw who the new coach was.  When it was Buzz, he left.

Mbakwe didn't leave until the day before classes started.  Five months is a long time for an "obviously gone" player to stick around.


That's a reasonable argument.

I think the counter is reasonable as well.  

Here's why I included such players, which I hope you'll at least grant has some merit:

1. An incoming recruit--verbal or signed--occupies one of a limited number of available scholarships.  Two negative consequences--a) the coaching staff may have backed off recruiting for another player thinking they have a verbal in hand. b) other players that would have committed to you go elsewhere thinking they won't get playing time.  

Its a reasonable argument that Clark's commitment a year and a half early precluded Buzz from getting serious with some other recruits.  Therefore his loss affects the team even though he didn't make it onto the formal roster.  

2. Losing a verbal commitment IS considered a loss by the team.  Just ask UW fans about Vander Blue.  Or MU fans about Ladaryl Billingsley.  Those players never suited up, played a game or appeared in the team photo.  Yet MU and UW fans will tell you that their teams lost those players.

When they announced they would be transferring doesn't really change the fact that the writing was on the wall the day Buzz was hired.  I don't know how Buzz is to blame for this.  Losing someone has to be caused somehow rather than just walking in the door.  At least in my opinion.

As for losing verbals, I just don't think they should be counted.  As you have seen in years passed, coaches will recruit until everyone they want is signed somewhere.  Getting a verbal commitment means nothing.  It doesn't stop people from recruiting a player, and the player is not obligated to sign with that school.  Our opinions probably differ here.

[Shooter Flatch]

Marquette84 get over yourself, seriously

I found the 'ignore" button works nicely!

[Lennys Tap]

Both sides make legit points.  MU84 is correct that some people that think Crean is Hitler conveniently do not apply the same standards to the new coach at times.  I assume that is what he is trying to illustrate.

Wow. 84 must have truly gone off the deep end for his aide-de-campe to go all neutral on him. LOL.