MBOA MIGHT BE LEAVING THE PROGRAM

[Lennys Tap]

Mu 84 i think you babble to such a degree that either you cannot follow your own logic or you hope no one else can follow your illogic.

I will break it down into bite size chunks for you and , iguess me.

How is it that you compare Mortensen and Mathhews for Crean to Bowen and clark for Buzz.  matthews and Mortensen verballed, signed leters of Intent , enrolled in the university, took classes and practiced with the team yet did not play and then left. 

How , even in your world, are those anywehere close to Clark and Bowen.  two players who merely verballed to MArquette.  I will hang up and listen to your answer.  Please try to keep it under a page. 

Most people consider the facts and draw conclusions based on them. 84 makes his conclusions and then tries to massage the facts to fit them. I guess all the obfuscation is easier the more long winded one is, but if this thread doesn't officially end all debate concerning his agenda nothing will.

[Marquette84]

  I will hang up and listen to your answer.  Please try to keep it under a page. 

Its this simple:

Those who said we had a "transfer problem" under Crean but are silent about current player departures are hypocrites.

[Balrogs]

1)  It has nothing to do with "believing it"....it's the same IP address. 

2)  When a guy tells you to go frack off multiple times in private emails and does a few other things, well yeah, he gets in my cross hairs

3)  I'm just trying to help him with his spelling and improve his role with Robby

Out of curiosity, where can you see someone's IP address?

[Tigidal]

Out of curiosity, where can you see someone's IP address?

It's only available to site admins.

[Marquette84]

Most people consider the facts and draw conclusions based on them. 84 makes his conclusions and then tries to massage the facts to fit them. I guess all the obfuscation is easier the more long winded one is, but if this thread doesn't officially end all debate concerning his agenda nothing will.

On this board, most people look at anything Crean does and attack it, and anything Buzz does and defend it--facts be damned.

This thread is a perfect example.

All I did was point out that the same people who complained of a "transfer problem" under Crean suddenly no longer have a problem with it--in fact, they defend Buzz--even though the number of departures is up over Crean. 

Those who attacked Crean for losing Saunders are now defending Buzz for Clark.
Those who attacked Crean for losing Mortenson think Buzz is blameless for Hazel
Those who attacked Crean for Hester defend Buzz for losing Mbakwe or Chirstopherson
Those who attacked Crean for ODB hold Buzz harmless on Maymon.
and so on . . .

I guess expecting people to give up their double standards is too much.

[Canadian Dimes]

I found the 'ignore" button works nicely!

me too!

[flash]

Those who attacked Crean for losing Saunders are now defending Buzz for Clark.
Those who attacked Crean for losing Mortenson think Buzz is blameless for Hazel
Those who attacked Crean for Hester defend Buzz for losing Mbakwe or Chirstopherson
Those who attacked Crean for ODB hold Buzz harmless on Maymon.
and so on . . .

The reason Buzz is not attacked for Hazel, and Maymon is because Hazel really wasn't any good, and even though we lost Maymon we still had a very successful season without him.  Also Buzz is not to blame for loosing Clark and Bowen.  Clark had legal issues, and Bowen backed out of a verbal commitment because one of our assistant coaches, who played a big part in Bowen's recruitment(i forget his name), left the program. 

[MuMark]

Who attacked Crean for Hester?

Who attacked Crean for ODB?

My recollection is everyone who posted on the subject pointed out what a silly decision it was by ODB.

I mean I know you want to defend TC but come on.

Buzz should get the blame for Roseborro. He missed on a recruit so badly that it was evident before he even started school.

Buzz had little to do with Chistopherson leaving. He realized he was in over his head here and would have left no matter who the coach was so in reality that one falls on TC too if you want to keep score.


You want to blame Buzz for Mbakwe(another kid recruited by Crean)?

Really?

The problem that I have with you 84 is everytime you defend Crean it comes accross as ripping Buzz.

Crean has been gone for 2 years now.........this whole discussion is ridiculous.

Why don't we go back and revisit the KO and Deane years next?

P.S. I propose that we look up everyone who was offered a scholarship by Crean or Buzz and count them as "departures" since it is the obvious next step from players that verbaled but never actually attended MU.

[Dawson Rental]

As long as James Matthews has been brought up, I thought I would show how he finished up in early 2008.

YPSILANTI, Mich. (AP) -Senior center James Matthews has been dismissed from the Eastern Michigan basketball program because of conduct detrimental to the program.
``This is a tough decision, but one that was made in the best interests of the program and the players,'' coach Charles Ramsey said Tuesday in a statement. ``James is taking his last course this semester and is on track to graduate in April. We wish James the best of luck in his future endeavors.''
The 6-foot-8, 240-pound Matthews missed the first eight games this season before returning for the last 10 games, when he averaged 5.0 points and 3.8 rebounds. During his career, he averaged 3.6 points and 2.7 rebounds.

[NersEllenson]

On this board, most people look at anything Crean does and attack it, and anything Buzz does and defend it--facts be damned.

This thread is a perfect example.

All I did was point out that the same people who complained of a "transfer problem" under Crean suddenly no longer have a problem with it--in fact, they defend Buzz--even though the number of departures is up over Crean. 

Those who attacked Crean for losing Saunders are now defending Buzz for Clark.
Those who attacked Crean for losing Mortenson think Buzz is blameless for Hazel
Those who attacked Crean for Hester defend Buzz for losing Mbakwe or Chirstopherson
Those who attacked Crean for ODB hold Buzz harmless on Maymon.
and so on . . .

I guess expecting people to give up their double standards is too much.

Was MUScoop even around when Krunti Hester went to MU - to where people would have been attacking Crean for "losing" Hester?  Just give it up already 84 - how many dissenting opinions do you need to read before you realize you are in the wrong on this topic.  It is clear your agenda is to defend TC forever and ever, and make topics into a Buzz vs. TC debate - t hat weren't even the initial topic of discussion within a thread.  Crean did well here at MU, and Buzz is doing equally as well, and quite possibly might exceed what TC did.  Hopefully Buzz can win more than 1 NCAA first Round Tourney game in 9 years (without the services of D-Wade) - - The 1st round flameouts to Tulsa, Alabama, and MSU hopefully won't be duplicated in coming seasons under Buzz.  Why do you have an issue with people who are genuinely excited about what Buzz has done so far with MU's basketball program/recruiting/caliber of play, etc.?

[Pakuni]

Its this simple:

Those who said we had a "transfer problem" under Crean but are silent about current player departures are hypocrites.

I never, not once, attacked Crean for a "transfer problem" but it's outright ludicrous to suggest the situations are similar.
The great majority of Crean's transfers were kids who actually enrolled at Marquette based on a scholarship offer from Crean, wore the Marquette uniform and then, for whatever reason, decided they did want to be at Marquette to play for Tom Crean any longer.
The great majority of Buzz transfers - real transfers, not the make believe ones you've cited - were kids recruited by Tom Crean who decided, for whatever reason, that they did not want to be at Marquette without Tom Crean there.
How can you not possibly see the difference?

Your effort to equate some of these entirely different situations, i.e. ODB and Maymon, Bowens and anyone, Mortensen and anyone, just reeks of desperation to prove a point of which nobody here can make sense.

[ChicosBailBonds]

The reason Buzz is not attacked for Hazel, and Maymon is because Hazel really wasn't any good, and even though we lost Maymon we still had a very successful season without him.  Also Buzz is not to blame for loosing Clark and Bowen.  Clark had legal issues, and Bowen backed out of a verbal commitment because one of our assistant coaches, who played a big part in Bowen's recruitment(i forget his name), left the program. 

And the irony there is that in almost every season under the previous administration we had very successful seasons as well.  Again....the irony.

We had transfers in the past, and still went to the NCAAs, still had players go to the NBA, still had everyone (just about) graduating, were ranked almost always.  Yet the bashing and bashing and bashing.

Now, crickets.  I'm happy as a clam there are crickets, I'm just wondering why that same treatment didn't apply back then?  Nevermind, we all know why. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

Was MUScoop even around when Krunti Hester went to MU - to where people would have been attacking Crean for "losing" Hester? 

MUScoop was not, but that was because there wasn't a need for MUScoop back then.  As I'm sure you are aware, when a need arises, someone will fill it.  Due to the nature in which other MU boards were run, a need arose and was filled by MUScoop.


I think MU84 is asking the same questions others of us have asked, why the double standards?  Fair questions.  I know, I know....one guy was a douche, therefore double standards are ok....apparently.   One guy didn't go to Turners after the games so double standards are ok....apparently.   One guy wasn't an assistant for Al McGuire and, therefore, his doucheness is ok....apparently.

There are a tremendous number of double standards applied over the years here (and elsewhere by some MU fans) toward KO, Majerus, Buzz then they are vs other coach(es).   It's kind of funny.

[Pakuni]

MUScoop was not, but that was because there wasn't a need for MUScoop back then.  As I'm sure you are aware, when a need arises, someone will fill it.  Due to the nature in which other MU boards were run, a need arose and was filled by MUScoop.


I think MU84 is asking the same questions others of us have asked, why the double standards?  Fair questions.  I know, I know....one guy was a douche, therefore double standards are ok....apparently.   One guy didn't go to Turners after the games so double standards are ok....apparently.   One guy wasn't an assistant for Al McGuire and, therefore, his doucheness is ok....apparently.

There are a tremendous number of double standards applied over the years here (and elsewhere by some MU fans) toward KO, Majerus, Buzz then they are vs other coach(es).   It's kind of funny.

Maybe.

Or maybe it's that some of us are willing to examine each situation individually and reach our conclusions that way rather than the blanket "all transfers are created equal" methodology 84 wants to impose.
Again - and I say this as someone who never knocked Crean over transfers -how can someone legitimately compare the transfers of Dameon Mason, Karon Bradley and Ryan Amoroso to those of Scott Christopherson, Patrick Hazel and Trevor Mbakwe?

Also, any hope of credibility 84 had in this discussion pretty much went out the window when he listed two guys who are still at MU and two that never came to MU as "departures," don't you think?
I mean, excuse my literalism, but doesn't someone first have to be someplace before he can depart from it? And doesn't "departure" kind of denote leaving?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Maybe.

Or maybe it's that some of us are willing to examine each situation individually and reach our conclusions that way rather than the blanket "all transfers are created equal" methodology 84 wants to impose.
Again - and I say this as someone who never knocked Crean over transfers -how can someone legitimately compare the transfers of Dameon Mason, Karon Bradley and Ryan Amoroso to those of Scott Christopherson, Patrick Hazel and Trevor Mbakwe?

Also, any hope of credibility 84 had in this discussion pretty much went out the window when he listed two guys who are still at MU and two that never came to MU as "departures," don't you think?
I mean, excuse my literalism, but doesn't someone first have to be someplace before he can depart from it? And doesn't "departure" kind of denote leaving?

I wouldn't have made those comparisons, but perhaps he is saying that if those same guys left under Crean, TC would be blasted for it.  I can only assume that is where he is coming from, but you would have to ask him.

[Dawson Rental]

Maybe.

Or maybe it's that some of us are willing to examine each situation individually and reach our conclusions that way rather than the blanket "all transfers are created equal" methodology 84 wants to impose.
Again - and I say this as someone who never knocked Crean over transfers -how can someone legitimately compare the transfers of Dameon Mason, Karon Bradley and Ryan Amoroso to those of Scott Christopherson, Patrick Hazel and Trevor Mbakwe?

Also, any hope of credibility 84 had in this discussion pretty much went out the window when he listed two guys who are still at MU and two that never came to MU as "departures," don't you think?
I mean, excuse my literalism, but doesn't someone first have to be someplace before he can depart from it? And doesn't "departure" kind of denote leaving?

Well, yeah in this universe.  But there are alternate universes.  (I think).

[avid1010]

Now, crickets.  I'm happy as a clam there are crickets, I'm just wondering why that same treatment didn't apply back then?  Nevermind, we all know why. 

because he's an a$$, and you continue to stick up for him.  Who the heck cares if still pissed off fans want to rip on TC.  I can think of a million better people to defend including Buzz, and if he leaves in the same fashion TC did, he'll get ripped on in the same fashion. 

[tower912]

How about this comparison.   How many players that Buzz recruited and actually made it to the first day of classes have transferred in two years?   1.  Maymon.  How many players recruited by Crean and actually took some classes at MU quit or transferred after Crean left?  (This lets both parties off of the hook for N. Williams and T. Taylor)    3.  Mbakwe, Hazel, Christopherson.   I don't blame anyone when a player decides to leave after the coach departs, so cross Krunti off of the list.    Saunders, Clark, Bowen, and Roseboro never actually enrolled for fall classes, so in my accounting, you can't hold either coach responsible for what happened to a recruit who never made it to campus.    Acker quit and came back.   So a strike against Buzz but also a shiny star to both for working it out like adults.  To my everlasting surprise, it saved the season.     So, please, rerun your computations strictly on players that Crean recruited who left while Crean was coach versus the players Buzz recruited who then left.   

[Marquette84]

Maybe.

Or maybe it's that some of us are willing to examine each situation individually and reach our conclusions that way rather than the blanket "all transfers are created equal" methodology 84 wants to impose.
Again - and I say this as someone who never knocked Crean over transfers -how can someone legitimately compare the transfers of Dameon Mason, Karon Bradley and Ryan Amoroso to those of Scott Christopherson, Patrick Hazel and Trevor Mbakwe?

Also, any hope of credibility 84 had in this discussion pretty much went out the window when he listed two guys who are still at MU and two that never came to MU as "departures," don't you think?
I mean, excuse my literalism, but doesn't someone first have to be someplace before he can depart from it? And doesn't "departure" kind of denote leaving?

As far as my "all transfers are created equal" rule--that, sir, was imposed on this board LONG before I invoked it today.  In fact, prior to 4/1/08, any attempt to view each case individually was itself criticized.  Every transfer--regardless of reason--was treated as part of a greater "transfer problem."  

Your silence then compared to your protest today is telling.

I've addressed several times already why I included guys who verballed

Up until today, people had no problem blaming Crean for the departure of a player that got arrested and wound up not attending MU.  I see the situations with Clark and Saunders as extremely similar.  I'm sorry, but I don't the LOI as the differentiating factor that you make it out to be.

Up until today, people had no problem suggesting that we "lost" LeDaryl Billingsely. Or that Bo "lost" Vander Blue.  Or as you point out Crean lost Green. I don't recall anyone defending Deane by saying technically there was no LOI.  

So why is Buzz given a pass on Bowen?  Either Buzz withdrew the scholarship offer (equivalent to non-renewal for a returning player) or Bowen decided he didn't want to play for Buzz anymore (equivalent to a returning player deciding to transfer). Outside of a coaching change, a reneged verbal is not common.  Neither coach nor player should treat such commitments lightly.

That's probably why so few come to mind.  Bowen. Green. Billingesley. Ricky Olson  Who else comes to mind?  What about us winning one?  Blue?  Anyone else?  

So, yes, I think it is serious when a coach loses a verbal commit.

[ChicosBailBonds]

because he's an a$$, and you continue to stick up for him.  Who the heck cares if still pissed off fans want to rip on TC.  I can think of a million better people to defend including Buzz, and if he leaves in the same fashion TC did, he'll get ripped on in the same fashion. 

I stick up for what he did for MU, not for his A$$ness.  KO was a dick of major proportions, yet almost no one here gets upset because he was an A$$.  Therein lies the hypocrisy.  Majerus left us hanging out in the cold and in MUCH worse shape than TC ever did, yet no one gets all hot and bothered over it.

I'm just challenging the hypocrisy, Avid.  I think that is more than a fair analysis.  I have and will always maintain that I could give a rat's A$$ if my coach is a jerk or not, I want him to graduate players, keep them out of NCAA trouble, keep them off the police blotter, and win a lot of games (i.e, go to the NCAA tournament more often than not).  Some people want their coach to be the nicest guy in the world if the players don't graduate, who cares.  If the players have a few indiscretions, look the other way.  Sure, I'd love to have a coach that is the nicest guy in the word, wins, graduates players, etc, etc....let's hope that's what we have.  We should know in a few more years.

[ChicosBailBonds]

How about this comparison.   How many players that Buzz recruited and actually made it to the first day of classes have transferred in two years?   1.  Maymon.  How many players recruited by Crean and actually took some classes at MU quit or transferred after Crean left?  (This lets both parties off of the hook for N. Williams and T. Taylor)    3.  Mbakwe, Hazel, Christopherson.   I don't blame anyone when a player decides to leave after the coach departs, so cross Krunti off of the list.    Saunders, Clark, Bowen, and Roseboro never actually enrolled for fall classes, so in my accounting, you can't hold either coach responsible for what happened to a recruit who never made it to campus.    Acker quit and came back.   So a strike against Buzz but also a shiny star to both for working it out like adults.  To my everlasting surprise, it saved the season.     So, please, rerun your computations strictly on players that Crean recruited who left while Crean was coach versus the players Buzz recruited who then left.  

Well, Roseboro did make it to campus (took two classes) and was playing with the guys when the staff went "oh crap, he ain't what we we thought he was", but boy did we think he was all that for awhile.....

http://community.sportsbubbler.com/blogs/iwbs_sports_blog/archive/2009/02/20/mu-s-09-recruiting-class-getting-to-know-brett-roseboro.aspx


http://articles.mcall.com/2009-08-29/news/4432089_1_marquette-assistant-summer-classes-summer-session

[brewcity77]

So will this ever get back on topic? M'Bao's not gone yet, and losing a 7'2" athletic guy is never a good thing. I do think a redshirt year could do him wonders. He could use 20-40 pounds on his frame, but will likely only see more PT as he acclimatizes to the system. Let's not forget he's only been playing basketball for a short period of time.

[GOMU1104]

Who the F is Mboa or M'Bao?

At least respect him enough to not butcher his name.

[avid1010]

I stick up for what he did for MU, not for his A$$ness.  KO was a dick of major proportions, yet almost no one here gets upset because he was an A$$.  Therein lies the hypocrisy.  Majerus left us hanging out in the cold and in MUCH worse shape than TC ever did, yet no one gets all hot and bothered over it.

I'm just challenging the hypocrisy, Avid.  I think that is more than a fair analysis.  I have and will always maintain that I could give a rat's A$$ if my coach is a jerk or not, I want him to graduate players, keep them out of NCAA trouble, keep them off the police blotter, and win a lot of games (i.e, go to the NCAA tournament more often than not).  Some people want their coach to be the nicest guy in the world if the players don't graduate, who cares.  If the players have a few indiscretions, look the other way.  Sure, I'd love to have a coach that is the nicest guy in the word, wins, graduates players, etc, etc....let's hope that's what we have.  We should know in a few more years.

So why do you feel people hate TC so much, yet give Majerus and KO a pass?  It's not rocket science...time.  I'm guessing Packer fans won't be booing Farve 10 years from now.  So why waste your time trying to get others to be fair to an a$$?  

Sorry you don't care if your teams coach is a jerk.  I moved my season tickets away from the MU bench during the Deane days because of his language, and I'd have young kids with me.  It was an embarrassment to MU, and I still think Father Wilde was gutless (start the Warriors talk now) for allowing that crap.  

[Dawson Rental]

I stick up for what he did for MU, not for his A$$ness.  KO was a dick of major proportions, yet almost no one here gets upset because he was an A$$.  Therein lies the hypocrisy.  Majerus left us hanging out in the cold and in MUCH worse shape than TC ever did, yet no one gets all hot and bothered over it.

I'm just challenging the hypocrisy, Avid.  I think that is more than a fair analysis.  I have and will always maintain that I could give a rat's A$$ if my coach is a jerk or not, I want him to graduate players, keep them out of NCAA trouble, keep them off the police blotter, and win a lot of games (i.e, go to the NCAA tournament more often than not).  Some people want their coach to be the nicest guy in the world if the players don't graduate, who cares.  If the players have a few indiscretions, look the other way.  Sure, I'd love to have a coach that is the nicest guy in the word, wins, graduates players, etc, etc....let's hope that's what we have.  We should know in a few more years.

KO was a dick of major proportions

I wasn't in a position to know this, and I'm glad I didn't.  Although, I guess his comment on his contract ("I wouldn't use it to blow my nose on" - was it?) should have been a clue.  
I did like his first year's recruiting class. (Well, not the Keith Stewart transfer)  And he was the only coach I actually met at alumni receptions (in Chicago) after games.  He also was the only coach who, I think, is in Buzz's class when it comes to honesty.  Maybe, too much.  After one game I think I remember O'Neil saying that Logterman played so bad that O'Neil told him that he looked like he was "high" out there.