Should Lazar's Number Be Retired Someday

[MUSF]

I'm not going to debate the semantics of the word "frequently" with you. I will, however, point out that Wade was a 1st Team Consensus All-American and every year there are 5 players who reach that status and another 5+ who are named to the 2nd Team. Over a 10 year span, that means there have been roughly 100 players who are at, or near, the same level as D-Wade.

I will condede that top tier programs don't have a pipeline of Wade-type players. I will also point out that nearly 25 major programs have had multiple Consensus All-Americans since 2000 (including Duke who has had 6, including 3 AP POYs, not counting Elton Brand in '99). That might not be your definition of "frequently" but if Marquette had a Consensus All-American every 4-5 seasons, most fans would be thrilled.

1st team All-Americans is a significantly flawed metric.  There are up years and down years for talent in the NCAA. One year's first teamer would be a second teamer in other years, not to mention, all all-americans are not created equal. 

[MUSF]

77ncaachamps, I can't really respect anyone's opinion on this subject that would bring up Anthony Pieper as a potential jersey retirement canidate.  Did you mean to put that in teal?

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Diener is a no-brainer.

Nobody else should be retired...and I continue to maintain that the fact that Doc Rivers number is in the rafters is an absolute outrage. I wonder whose idea that was?

[CTWarrior]

Diener is a no-brainer.

Nobody else should be retired...and I continue to maintain that the fact that Doc Rivers number is in the rafters is an absolute outrage. I wonder whose idea that was?

Agree 100% about Rivers, who I should love because I was at MU for his whole career. 

For those of you who think we ought to retire McNeal, James, Matthews, Lazar, etc. note that those guys played together for three years and we won a grand total of 0 conference championships, 0 conference tournaments championships and 2 NCAA first round tournament games.  You should do TONS better than that if those guys were really three or four of your all-time greats.

All four were better players than Rivers at MU, I love 'em all, but none of them should have their numbers retired.  Also, their scoring and rebounding numbers are inflated by compoariosn for several reasons, including because we play a lot more games now, they were not fighting high quality players ahaed of them for playing time early in their careers, and finally, we play at a faster pace under Crean and Buzz than we did under Al, Raymonds, Majerus, Dukiet (well maybe not Dukiet), O'Neill and Deane.

[GGGG]

77ncaachamps, I can't really respect anyone's opinion on this subject that would bring up Anthony Pieper as a potential jersey retirement canidate.  Did you mean to put that in teal?

Not to mention Chris Crawford.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Agree 100% about Rivers, who I should love because I was at MU for his whole career. 

For those of you who think we ought to retire McNeal, James, Matthews, Lazar, etc. note that those guys played together for three years and we won a grand total of 0 conference championships, 0 conference tournaments championships and 2 NCAA first round tournament games.  You should do TONS better than that if those guys were really three or four of your all-time greats.

Amen. When it comes down to it, team accomplishments should take precedent. I don't consider McNeal, James or Matthews to be "all time greats" at MU. I do think Lazar is one of the, perhaps, 30 greatest players in MU history.  I've said it before and I'll say it again, I actually think DJO is a better player than McNeal...and I'll throw Matthews in there as well. Wes has made it big in the NBA, but he was not a big time college player. James is, quite frankly, the most overrated player I can remember ever playing at Marquette.

[MerrittsMustache]

Amen. When it comes down to it, team accomplishments should take precedent. I don't consider McNeal, James or Matthews to be "all time greats" at MU. I do think Lazar is one of the, perhaps, 30 greatest players in MU history.  I've said it before and I'll say it again, I actually think DJO is a better player than McNeal...and I'll throw Matthews in there as well. Wes has made it big in the NBA, but he was not a big time college player. James is, quite frankly, the most overrated player I can remember ever playing at Marquette.

You say this, but you also believe that retiring Diener's number is no-brainer. What exactly did the team accomplish with Diener being more than just a role player?

[RawdogDX]

Am I the only one who thinks NBA performance should be a factor? (no i didn't read all the posts)

Diener was a key member of the final four and has had a decent amount of NBA success.  I don't think Lazar's numbers set him apart from any of the big 3.  If Lazar goes in the 2nd, earns a spot, and starts getting some minutes in a few years I'll change my vote.

[Canadian Dimes]

If this is the criteria, why was Wade's number retired?  He played only two seasons and did not accumulate the stats like could have had he stayed.

If what he did was "enough"  how about retiring Rjax's 55 too?  Many argue that without him, no final four.

You may also remeber the firestorm that occurred when announcing the retiement of DWades number.  All forced down the throughts by the Tan One.  Number retiring policy was one had to graduate.  Just like Mu all Time Great MAurice Lucas had to wait 25 years until he got his degree.  AAll American, Played in atitle game, All -star NBA acreer, Won an NBA title, left early  etc. but waited 25 years until he got his degree.  DWade was rushed thru so Cream could strike while the iron was hot.  Nothing better than pointing at his banner while telling a recruit he reminds him of DWade.  

Same classless loser that gave Lazar george thompson's retired number and created that whole firestorm.  Glad to see He has started coming back to games and Buzz has remebraced him back into the program after he walked away from it do to that whole fiasco.  Funny thing is he would not dare touch tradition at Iu, here he thought he was bigger than the program, there he knows he is not.  Karma will have it's day with that scumbag

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

You say this, but you also believe that retiring Diener's number is no-brainer. What exactly did the team accomplish with Diener being more than just a role player?

What!? Diener was a "role player?" Think again, muchacho!

[MerrittsMustache]

What!? Diener was a "role player?" Think again, muchacho!

Re-read what I wrote.

Diener was a role player as a freshman and as sophomore (when the team went to the Final Four). Yes, I know he scored 29 points against Holy Cross but he was still a role player on that team, and a very good one at that. When he was "the man," he led the team to 2 NIT appearances.

[Canadian Dimes]

i voted no based on the fact that we have what 10 number retired?  All of them were first team all-americans on great great teams.  Except for Doc Rivers ( another crean reach around).  If Mu changes its standards to consider him for retirment then maybe but he would have to stand in line behind about 20 others first.  

While lazar was a very fine player i beleive people get too coaught up in career numbers.  Career numbers can over shadow or undershadow a players true greatness.  For example had Brian Wardle not come along during a weak time in MU's fortunes he would never have had the type of numbers he had.  On a very strong team he would most likely had much reduced shot attempts and minutes his first two years.  The same can be said for the 3 amigos and LAzar.  If those guys joined very strong teams ala the 70's they would not have been the stars of necessity that they were in years 1 and 2.  There career number probbaly would have followed a path more like that of a Chris Crawford who joined an already very talented team and had to bide his time.  Not comparing Chris Crawford to the 3 amigos or Lazar just saying they did not have all-conference or future NBA players in front of them when they were underclassmen. 

Now this could devolve into a post on Creans abyssmal recruitng and why that was the case but it wont

[Atlanta Warrior]

I can't imagine how anyone could advocate that Chris Crawford's jersey be retired.  That said I do like the notion of hanging the jersey's in a place of honor and retiring only those that acheive an extremely unique level of success. 

[NersEllenson]

I think Lazar's jersey should be retired...after he plays some professional ball. Having a long and solid NBA career will DEFINITELY help the cause. (But Miller would be the exception.)

But first...
Jim Chones (did he eventually graduate?)
Tony Miller
Jim McIlvaine
Chris Crawford
Travis Diener
Steve Novak
Jerel McNeal


Possibly?
Wes Matthews
Dominic James
Lazar Hayward


A sniff but probably not:
Anthony Pieper
Brian Wardle
Aaron Hutchins (one of my fav all-time)

I would not put Chris Crawford on this list, nor Steve Novak ahead of Lazar.  Novak and Lazar had comparable senior seasons, but Lazar played 4 years in the Big East and has better career numbers in socring and rebounding than either Crawford or Novak.

[77ncaachamps]

I know that list I threw up there was just off the top of my head.
I used an NBA career (other than Tony Miller) to kind of guide me.

But looking back, Crawford doesn't belong. Love the fact that his name can be added as ex-MUers in the NBA.

Pieper's mention was under "a sniff but NO" so he would only get consideration for placing in the top 10 stat categories each year he played. But seriously, no way he'd make it.

And the list of possibly jersey replacements weren't in order of importance.