another example of fouling up 3 gone bad

[muhoosier260]

xavier/k. st. XU is fouled as shooter attempts 3....B/C he knew the foul was coming! Smart play by xavier, stupid play by ksu

EDIT:
Well it worked out for KSU, but it took two overtimes. Seeing how animated Frank Martin is, I wouldn't want to be in the huddle after that foul on the attempted 3. yikes.

[bartmiller#1]

K-State and Frank Martin just showed why you might not want to foul when you're up 3. 

The refs blew it, but that's always a risk. 

Not as simple issue as it's been portrayed on the board.

[RJax55]

Yep, horrible foul and well as a terrible non-call by the ref. Holloway was definitely fouled before the shot attempt.

Perhaps fouling up 3 is not as cut and dry an issue as some make it out to be?

[MarquetteDano]

I don't understand everyone upset by the "no call".  If the foul is that obvious then it is an intentional.  You don't get to pick when a ref calls a foul.

[rocky_warrior]

I think it was a good non-call just cuz Len Elmore was pissed about it.  Man I can't stand that guy.

[MarquetteDano]

I think it was a good non-call just cuz Len Elmore was pissed about it.  Man I can't stand that guy.

Five minutes into every game I can tell who he wants to win.  Is there a more biased announcer?

[bma725]

I don't understand everyone upset by the "no call".  If the foul is that obvious then it is an intentional.  You don't get to pick when a ref calls a foul.

Umm no.  A foul is intentional if there was no legitimate attempt by the offender to play the ball or player, whether or not it was actually intentional is irrelevant.  The "no call" had a legitimate attempt, and was a clear mistake by the ref.

[nyg]

What a game.  Crawford and Holloway are ENFUEGO............

[rocky_warrior]

Five minutes into every game I can tell who he wants to win.  Is there a more biased announcer?

Can't believe he was just arguing that was a flop/defensive foul.  A clear offensive foul with the shoulder - if you're gonna' call anything.

Argh...I should just mute it.

[MarquetteDano]

Umm no.  A foul is intentional if there was no legitimate attempt by the offender to play the ball or player, whether or not it was actually intentional is irrelevant.  The "no call" had a legitimate attempt, and was a clear mistake by the ref.

Yes, I understand the ruling on an intentional foul.  The point is that it is hard to clearly foul someone and ALWAYS get the call.  How many times is incidental contact not called.  It is subjective and the ref let it go.  To complain about a foul not being called when the offensive player was still able to continue (didn't fall down, didn't lose the ball)... I really don't get that when you are the one who initiated the contact.

[karavotsos]

Hey Len Elmore-- how many times out does Xavier have left?

[nyg]

Hey Len Elmore-- how many times out does Xavier have left?

Besides the "times" out, I swear he must have been slobbering.  Sounded terrible.

[muhoosier260]

I agree with everyone about the Len Elmore sentiments. Here's something that will blow your mind: he graduated from Harvard Law school!

[MUEng92]

Are you sure it wasn't an honorary degree?

[4everwarriors]

I agree with everyone about the Len Elmore sentiments. Here's something that will blow your mind: he graduated from Harvard Law school!

Yep, with classmater Marc Marotta. Must have had a decent intramural basketball team.

[Brewtown Andy]

This isn't really "gone bad" since it was poor decision making as to when they fouled.  If you're going to foul while up 3, you can't let the guy with the ball get inside of 30 feet away from the basket.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I agree with everyone about the Len Elmore sentiments. Here's something that will blow your mind: he graduated from Harvard Law school!

So did someone else that hasn't exactly impressed many of late....

[Lighthouse 84]

So did someone else that hasn't exactly impressed many of late....

and I don't see that one changing for the better anytime soon...

[mu_hilltopper]

xavier/k. st. XU is fouled as shooter attempts 3....B/C he knew the foul was coming! Smart play by xavier, stupid play by ksu

Incorrect.  The team wanted to foul.  They executed that plan.  They have no control over whether or not the ref decides to properly call the foul.  The ref failed his job and missed the foul before the shot.  That's not a "stupid play" on KSU's side. 

[MU B2002]

I did like the fact that in OT1 they decided not to foul and Crawford buried a 35 footer.  So they did it both ways, and gave up the lead both times.  BTW... Clemente and Pullen are fantastic.

[MerrittsMustache]

Incorrect.  The team wanted to foul.  They executed that plan.  They have no control over whether or not the ref decides to properly call the foul.  The ref failed his job and missed the foul before the shot.  That's not a "stupid play" on KSU's side. 

The ref didn't fail. The defender - Clemente, I believe - failed by giving a half-hearted effort to foul (despite Elmore saying he "wrapped both arms around" Holloway). If you watch it in full speed, it hardly looked like anything. Holloway didn't even seem to break stride. If you're going to foul someone in that situation, you have to make it clear, obviously without being flagrant. If he partially stepped in front of Holloway and tried to poke the ball out, he would have gotten the call. Lazily reaching out with both hands and tapping him with one of them isn't necessarily going to get you the call.

[GGGG]

Incorrect.  The team wanted to foul.  They executed that plan.  They have no control over whether or not the ref decides to properly call the foul.  The ref failed his job and missed the foul before the shot.  That's not a "stupid play" on KSU's side. 

The referee not calling it correctly is a variable that needs to be taken into consideration.

[The Man in Gold]

Incorrect.  The team wanted to foul.  They executed that plan.  They have no control over whether or not the ref decides to properly call the foul.  The ref failed his job and missed the foul before the shot.  That's not a "stupid play" on KSU's side. 

The "stupid play" would be the next guy who tried to wrap up Holloway in a way that allowed him to get into the act of shooting.  Brilliant play by Holloway, but that is what can happen when you tell a team not to play good, tough defense and instead do something they are not comfortable with instead.

When the fouling up 3 strategy works, it looks very smart (and extremely frustrating for the other side) but I think this goes to show that it is not a settled issue and each coach can play it out the way they think is best.

[M@RQUETTEW@RRIORS]

for some reason I believe alot of people here would be singing a different tune had Buzz decided to foul when up 3 against ND.

[ChicosBailBonds]

It's funny, in listening to the game on the radio, the analyst on Sunday for Pitt vs Xavier was Pete Gillen (former Xavier coach)....he said to foul when Xavier was up 3 on Pitt.

Last night's game on the radio, not sure who the analyst was, but another former coach, also said to foul.

Both games on the Westwood One Radio Network

Go figure.