Basketball strategy Q

[ErickJD08]

OK, so when there is about 5 seconds left, one possession game, inbound from opposite end of your basket, one time out left.  Why  not make a long inbound pass and call a TO at half court?  Most teams call TO before the inbound. 

[StillWarriors]

Makes some sense. I think it is b/c coaches are generally control freaks and don't want to leave anything to chance. If they threw it away and didn't call the timeout first they'd regret it/get slammed for it.

[ErickJD08]

I bring this post back because of the MSU v Tennessee game.  On the last play of the game, there were two players on TN that were comely open (because they are not three point shooters).  If you pass them the ball at halfcourt and call another quick TO, you get to inbound at halfcourt with about one second left.  I have never seen a team implement that strategy but there are some situations where I can see it working really well.

[Canadian Dimes]

Usually only happens when a team has two timeouts left and I have seen teams do that.  In fact Mu did it a few times.  Some people on this board like to Bitch that Buzz saves his to's. yet I dont hear them come back and say boy I am glad buzz saved his to's in the Uconn, Seton hall, Sju and Ciccinatti games.

Problem with throwing it to midcourt before calling a t.o. is twofold. 
1.  A pass that long can be rather easily stolen and 2. a pass like that requires a set play Ie. a double screen or screen the screener type action and that is hard to run/ set up on a made basket with all the excitement confusion etc.  Typically and it is not so much a control freak thing a coach is better off calling the time out. settling his players down and saying "this is exactly what we are going to do/review the play".  I think most coaches myself included believe that will have a better likelihood of succes than them botching the play and the ball getting picked off or thrown away and then of course the arm chair quesrter backs say " why did they not use the TO?"

With only 1 TO, probaly the right thing to do.  another thing is in a case like that their is alot of emotion and brain farts can happen really easily and a to to calm and collect is a good thing. 

Personal story...we are playing in a tournament once packed gym on the road no one can hear we go to hand signals becuase our Pg cannot hear us, etc. etc.  plce is going crazy we cannot hit fre throws and the place is getting even crazier.  I burn a few To's trying to settle the team excection is terrible etc.  Game goes to OT.    OT is crazy we have a couple guys foul out etc.  We are out of To's.  Other team hits a shot with 3-4 seconds left to go up 2.  One of my guards...now like with most teams our 4's and 5's inbound off the make...yet one of my guards in a panic runs over grabs the ball and rolls it up the court.  as he has his back to the floor and picks up the ball they call press he turns and rolls it and one of their players dives on the floor around the Ft line and grabs it resulting in a tie up.  we get the possesion with like 1 second left and lose the game. 

Bottom line the kid panicked, should have never even been inbounding it.  and my goodness should never have rolled the ball.  he knew it and in a locker room full of tears he probalably felt the worst.  Bottom crazy crap happens in those situations.  lazar against Missouri, chris webber, the list goes from hear to China. even grevious Vasquesz against MSU pulling the trigger with 11 seconds left.  How about Providence losing to the Pitt 3 at the buzzer, providence hits the winner and runs back and lets Gibbs dribble uncontested all the way to the 3-point line and shoot an uncontested 3 at the buzzer..ball game...was that a brain fart?

[MU1984]

I bring this post back because of the MSU v Tennessee game.  On the last play of the game, there were two players on TN that were comely open (because they are not three point shooters).  If you pass them the ball at halfcourt and call another quick TO, you get to inbound at halfcourt with about one second left.  I have never seen a team implement that strategy but there are some situations where I can see it working really well.

Izzo did a great job with the intentional miss.  That forced Tenn to rebound and call a timeout, but most importantly they couldn't run up and down the baseline to inbound the ball like they would've if MSU made the second FT. 

Therefore, the inbounder had to stay in one spot with a defender in front of him.  In theory, a pass to half court and a quick TO would be optimal, but because of the inbound situation the pass to Prince was their best option and if he doesn't fumble the ball he probably has a 20-25% of making that shot.  Not a bad percentage seeing they had to go full court in 1.6sec. 

[MU B2002]

And really, Prince had a nice open look from inside half court.  A lot of teams wouldn't get a shot off from past half court in that situation. 

[PGsHeroes32]

Tennessee definitly could have done it. They still had another time out and Prince got the ball to half court with 1 sec left. They could have called a timeout and ran that baseline play that Maryland did to get a buzzer beater on GT earlier this year.

[MerrittsMustache]

Izzo did a great job with the intentional miss.  That forced Tenn to rebound and call a timeout, but most importantly they couldn't run up and down the baseline to inbound the ball like they would've if MSU made the second FT.  

Therefore, the inbounder had to stay in one spot with a defender in front of him.  In theory, a pass to half court and a quick TO would be optimal, but because of the inbound situation the pass to Prince was their best option and if he doesn't fumble the ball he probably has a 20-25% of making that shot.  Not a bad percentage seeing they had to go full court in 1.6sec.  

A guy who is a career 23% 3pt shooter had 20-25% chance of making a running 40-footer?


EDIT: Well, I guess technically it was a 3-pointer so your statistics are accurate  

[GGGG]

Usually only happens when a team has two timeouts left and I have seen teams do that.  In fact Mu did it a few times.  Some people on this board like to Bitch that Buzz saves his to's. yet I dont hear them come back and say boy I am glad buzz saved his to's in the Uconn, Seton hall, Sju and Ciccinatti games.

Problem with throwing it to midcourt before calling a t.o. is twofold. 
1.  A pass that long can be rather easily stolen and 2. a pass like that requires a set play Ie. a double screen or screen the screener type action and that is hard to run/ set up on a made basket with all the excitement confusion etc.  Typically and it is not so much a control freak thing a coach is better off calling the time out. settling his players down and saying "this is exactly what we are going to do/review the play".  I think most coaches myself included believe that will have a better likelihood of succes than them botching the play and the ball getting picked off or thrown away and then of course the arm chair quesrter backs say " why did they not use the TO?"

With only 1 TO, probaly the right thing to do.  another thing is in a case like that their is alot of emotion and brain farts can happen really easily and a to to calm and collect is a good thing. 

Personal story...we are playing in a tournament once packed gym on the road no one can hear we go to hand signals becuase our Pg cannot hear us, etc. etc.  plce is going crazy we cannot hit fre throws and the place is getting even crazier.  I burn a few To's trying to settle the team excection is terrible etc.  Game goes to OT.    OT is crazy we have a couple guys foul out etc.  We are out of To's.  Other team hits a shot with 3-4 seconds left to go up 2.  One of my guards...now like with most teams our 4's and 5's inbound off the make...yet one of my guards in a panic runs over grabs the ball and rolls it up the court.  as he has his back to the floor and picks up the ball they call press he turns and rolls it and one of their players dives on the floor around the Ft line and grabs it resulting in a tie up.  we get the possesion with like 1 second left and lose the game. 

Bottom line the kid panicked, should have never even been inbounding it.  and my goodness should never have rolled the ball.  he knew it and in a locker room full of tears he probalably felt the worst.  Bottom crazy crap happens in those situations.  lazar against Missouri, chris webber, the list goes from hear to China. even grevious Vasquesz against MSU pulling the trigger with 11 seconds left.  How about Providence losing to the Pitt 3 at the buzzer, providence hits the winner and runs back and lets Gibbs dribble uncontested all the way to the 3-point line and shoot an uncontested 3 at the buzzer..ball game...was that a brain fart?

That is the biggest issue with coaching.  You can run something 100 times in practice, but you cannot simulate the actual game situation.  This year, when my group of 8th graders were pressed, we invariably had a couple of turnovers - wrong guy inbounding the ball, people out of position - until I called timeout and made sure (once again) that everyone knew their roles and responsibilities.  After that, we were fine.  Maddening.

[MU1984]

A guy who is a career 23% 3pt shooter had 20-25% chance of making a running 40-footer?


EDIT: Well, I guess technically it was a 3-pointer so your statistics are accurate  

Yeah...didn't really take into account Prince's awful % from 3, just the average shooter which Prince certainly is not.

I guess what I am saying is that in the same circumstances Tennessee got a better shot than we did versus Washington and we had the ability to run the baseline.  Good strategy by Izzo and solid execution by Tenn given the situation they were in.

[damuts222]

 It was an awful attempt by Prince regardless. He jumped w/o preparing his arms to shoot the ball, all legs when he went up for that. He ended up kicking his legs, it was embarassing to watch that shot.

[MU B2002]

It was an awful attempt by Prince regardless. He jumped w/o preparing his arms to shoot the ball, all legs when he went up for that. He ended up kicking his legs, it was embarassing to watch that shot.

You could see how crushed his teammates were when they instantly realized the ball would likely not make it to the free throw line.

[MU1984]

You could see how crushed his teammates were when they instantly realized the ball would likely not make it to the free throw line.

Did Prince do the Mile High salute after the ball didn't get above the rim?

[wojosdojo]

Think of this all the time and don't get why coaches don't do this because it makes perfect sense. Persay there's 3 seconds left and you call a TO before the inbound. You have time for max. 3 dribbles and a heave. If you take the long pass and call TO at half with 1.5 to go you have time to set up for 3 or lob pass and/or dunk. Wish Buzz considered this against WV, Nova, possibly DePaul, and UW. The coaches just need to gell refferee, "hey I'm going to call TO as soon as my guy touches the ball, look at me."

[MU1984]

Think of this all the time and don't get why coaches don't do this because it makes perfect sense. Persay there's 3 seconds left and you call a TO before the inbound. You have time for max. 3 dribbles and a heave. If you take the long pass and call TO at half with 1.5 to go you have time to set up for 3 or lob pass and/or dunk. Wish Buzz considered this against WV, Nova, possibly DePaul, and UW. The coaches just need to gell refferee, "hey I'm going to call TO as soon as my guy touches the ball, look at me."

A lot of coaches are happy to have the pass "completed" that they would rather let the play go and see what happens.  In this scenario/theory, yes it is optimal because you can set up a play like they do in the NBA after a TO and not have to deal with a long pass...however, being a realist and devils advocate, it also sets up the other teams defense.  Inbounding the ball from halfcourt <2seconds isn't THAT easy.  A defender can be on the inbounder at an angle because you are nearly 100% sure they won't be inbounding on the other side of the timeline and actually, you will let them do that if they want.  Also, a lob is very dangerous because if the defender just tips/deflects it, the clock starts and the offensive player still has to regain possession and probably have to make a turnaround jumper/lob shot.  More times than not, you will end up with a 25-30 foot jump shot off of one dribble - and to achieve that difficult shot it is assumed that you made a half court pass from the other end to a teammate and called a quick timeout.  Two risky passes to get a 25 footer, or one risky pass to get a 40 footer...risk/reward probably says if you can get the ball inbounds, go with it, and see what happens.

You don't have too look much further than probably the most memorable play in NCAA history either.  If Coach K had an extra TO, do you think he would've called it when Laettner caught the 2/3 court pass?

[Canadian Dimes]

correct and that was part of my 2 points ...how often is that pass even caught?.....and that is why they dont do it that much. 

[GoldenWarrior]

Too much could go wrong.

[Canadian Dimes]

That is the biggest issue with coaching.  You can run something 100 times in practice, but you cannot simulate the actual game situation.  This year, when my group of 8th graders were pressed, we invariably had a couple of turnovers - wrong guy inbounding the ball, people out of position - until I called timeout and made sure (once again) that everyone knew their roles and responsibilities.  After that, we were fine.  Maddening.

well said Sultan and that is why i get so frustrated when people that have never played or coaches come on here and monday morning quarterback Buzz  with obviously naive, ignorant statements.   And while you are coachign 8th graders it really is not a whole lot different when they are just alittle bit older, especially when they crowds get bigger, the pressure gets greater and the opposition gets bigger and faster

[bilsu]

To great of chance that you do not get the time out until less than .5 seconds, which would require a tip in. What I do not understand is why Tennesee did not argue for more time to be put on the clock after the foul was called. Looked like a half second ran off before the clock was stopped.

[HouWarrior]

with a 3 point lead--5sec or lees left-- in college and pros,  why dont teams foul, give up the two points and get ball back vs risking a 3 pointer
sorry its not on this point but so many free 3 pointers have tied up games i just dont get it

[Canadian Dimes]

very simple answer.  coaches rarely do it, yet never played or coached before fans call for it.  Do you think Frank martin will call it next time?   Bottom line is too many things can go wrong.

How many times have you read where people say do it with 8 seconds left but not less than 3-4 or dont do it with more than 10. simple to know how much time is on the clock sititng in your recliner

I apologize i dont know these paramaters that people spout as i do not read the posts. They might be correct in theory but not in practicality.  How many times this year have you seen guys foul in obvious fouling situations and be called for an intentional?  How many times have you seen a team miss a FT and get the rebound?  Asking players to do something they are not used to doing is looking for problems.  How often does a guy offensive rebound make it and get fouled, make the first Ft do that and it is a 4 point play for the loss.  Just defend the perimeter properly and it is a very low percentage shot.  Even Crawfords 3 was probably from 28 feet  very low percentage.  Next time it happens my guess is Martin will choose to let the guy try to make another 20 plus foot contested 3.

Defend the three, switch all screens and the shooting percentage on a contested three or a three off the dribble is probably 20% at best.  Contested and threes off the dribble do not go in very often, threes off the drive and kick where the player has time and can step into it normally go down in the mid to high 40%.  One of the reasons Mu shot the 3 so well this year is they drove and kicked and took good threes.  When defending the 3 on a last play you can allow the drive and stay on your man leaving the rim open but not the kick.  in normal game situations guys help to guard the rim while allowing the kick. 
Also Mu shot 3's well this year becuase we did not take that many bad threes.  watching the tournament this year reminded me of how mnay bad threes are taken.  Syracuses loss aginst Butler the cuse maybe took as many bad threes as Mu did all year

[ChicosBailBonds]

very simple answer.  coaches rarely do it, yet never played or coached before fans call for it.  Do you think Frank martin will call it next time?   Bottom line is too many things can go wrong.

LOL


Pete Gillen, I think he coached, called for it in both games he broadcast last weekend.

Mike Brey, I think he coaches...

Jim Boeheim....I think he's in the Hall of Fame and still coaches


Look, it's not a settled issue, many ways to go about with different philosophies from all sorts, but to suggest that coaches don't do it is beyond ridiculous.  

By the way, Scott Drew never played so I guess he can't coach, you know...because he never played and such.  LOL