NY Post: Roberts to Be Fired At St. John's

[dwaderoy2004]

Did I say his recruiting was abysmal for all 6 years?  No, I didn't.   His recruiting for his first few years was good.  He couldn't get most of the talented kids he brought in to perform, or in some cases even stay at St. John's, but he was able to bring them in.  

The last few years(since I wrote that post 2 years ago) have been a very different story.  He devoted a lot of time and energy to Lance Stephenson, then whiffed.  He devoted a lot of time to Kevin Parrom, then whiffed.  His 2009 class hasn't performed up to expectations.  His 2010 class only includes one guy and he isn't a high level good prospect.  Then there's his nearly non-existant 2011 class.  He's got 10 juniors on his roster right now, so he'll have a boatload of scholarships available.  Instead of realizing that and focusing on the 2011 class so they don't fall off a cliff, he's only made limited inroads in the class, and gotten 1 commit.

No but you certainly alluded to it:

"The guy has had 6 years, that's a life time in college basketball."
"His recruiting is abysmal.  He brought in 1 consensus Top 100 player since he's been there and shows no signs of turning it around on that front."

[goodgreatgrand]

That's what football consists of now as well.  I trust that there is enough history, intelligence, and maturity that they can work out the money issue as they've been able to for 5 years running.  What would the basketball side consist of for the football schools?  No longer the best conference in the land without us, Nova, Georgetown, Notre Dame, and a few doormats that give those schools enough wins to make the NCAAs year in and year out.  And as far as the doormats, are Rutgers and USF, possibly even Cincy going to be willing to cast their basketball programs into the depths because they won't be able to compete with the powerhouses that remain?  Who are they going to draw besides MAC or worse teams to make the football conference 10-12 teams and not be inferior to the Big Ten in basketball (and still remain so in football)?  Even if Nova or even Georgetown decided to play football, are we really that useless that we wouldn't be able to work out an arrangement to remain in the conference without playing football?  I doubt it.

The basketball side would mirror the football side. Putting the football schools together would arguably create the best conference in the country. But, they won't be a seperate conference; the conference now would split into two divisions. And how does adding doormats help establish the strongest conference in the country? And why do they need to add football schools? there are 8 now and that's good enough for the bcs.

[bma725]

No but you certainly alluded to it:

"The guy has had 6 years, that's a life time in college basketball."
"His recruiting is abysmal.  He brought in 1 consensus Top 100 player since he's been there and shows no signs of turning it around on that front."

You're seeing something that are not there.  

The first comment wasn't even about his recruiting, it was about how long it takes to turn around a program.  Coaches very often turn around bad programs in less time than that, he hasn't been able to do so, that statement had nothing to do with the quality of his recruiting.

If I were talking about his recruiting as a whole, I would have said so.  The reference to the 1 Top 100 player he's brought in before was to point out that his recruiting today isn't as good as it used to be.  You're trying to compare a statement made today with things said two years ago, when his recruiting wasn't that bad.  Since then, however, things have changed quite a bit.

[MarquetteDano]

So is Providence College an elite program? Wisconsin must be better than Duke since the won it all back before there was a Berlin Wall.

I don't know the issues between you guys in BMA.  Or maybe you just don't like Duke but Duke is fifth all-time in NCAA wins.  They are third all time in winning percentage.  Since they've had basketball since 1903 I don't think you can attribute that all to Coach K.

We may not like it, but Duke is an elite program.

[bma725]

So is Providence College an elite program? Wisconsin must be better than Duke since the won it all back before there was a Berlin Wall.

Who said anything about Elite?  You said Duke was a crap program before Coach K got there, and they weren't.  crap programs are places like Northwestern who've never made the NCAA Tournament and have no history of success.  Coach K took over a team coming off an Elite 8 appearance, that had been to 4 Final Fours in the previous 17 years.  He made them better, but they were far from crap before he got there.

[Hards Alumni]

Who said anything about Elite?  You said Duke was a crap program before Coach K got there, and they weren't.  crap programs are places like Northwestern who've never made the NCAA Tournament and have no history of success.  Coach K took over a team coming off an Elite 8 appearance, that had been to 4 Final Fours in the previous 17 years.  He made them better, but they were far from crap before he got there.

why should he let a little thing like the facts get in the way?!

[GuamanianTerror]

Who said anything about Elite?  

Here is what I wrote: Why does anyone put UConn in the elite category?...I feel the same way about Duke, too.

So answer my question - you must then also consider PC to be an elite program and that UW was superior to pre-K Duke since they won a title back in the '40's.

Take away K's wins and Duke was a solid but hardly elite program. It will be interesting to see how the transition and post K era goes. The next shapter is more important in this mystery story, wouldn't you agree?

[bma725]

Here is what I wrote: Why does anyone put UConn in the elite category?...I feel the same way about Duke, too.

So answer my question - you must then also consider PC to be an elite program and that UW was superior to pre-K Duke since they won a title back in the '40's.

Take away K's wins and Duke was a solid but hardly elite program. It will be interesting to see how the transition and post K era goes. The next shapter is more important in this mystery story, wouldn't you agree?

Here is what you wrote:  "They were sheet until K came along."  Nothing about the program was "sheet" before Coach K got there.  What other schools did in the past is irrelevant to understanding what Duke was as a program before Coach K got there.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Here is what I wrote: Why does anyone put UConn in the elite category?...I feel the same way about Duke, too.

So answer my question - you must then also consider PC to be an elite program and that UW was superior to pre-K Duke since they won a title back in the '40's.

Take away K's wins and Duke was a solid but hardly elite program. It will be interesting to see how the transition and post K era goes. The next shapter is more important in this mystery story, wouldn't you agree?

To be accurate, this is what you said:

Why does anyone put UConn in the elite category? They were sheet until two things happened: 1. BE 2. Calhoun. The BE is a constant but Calhoun is not coming back. Much will depend on the successor.

I feel the same way about Duke, too. They were sheet until K came along. Same with Zona.Personally I hope Sean Miller craps in is cheerios down there and Zona goes back to being a middle of the pack program in a mediocre conference.

Soooo, the answer is that no Duke probably wasn't "elite", but they weren't "sheet" as you so eloquently put.


EDIT: Ninja post by BMA. Well played, sir.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Why does anyone put UConn in the elite category? They were sheet until two things happened: 1. BE 2. Calhoun. The BE is a constant but Calhoun is not coming back. Much will depend on the successor.

I feel the same way about Duke, too. They were sheet until K came along. Same with Zona. Personally I hope Sean Miller craps in is cheerios down there and Zona goes back to being a middle of the pack program in a mediocre conference.

That is incorrect as it relates to Duke.  They had a strong history prior to Coach K.   Zona and UCONN were built on their coaches success, but that also puts them in a great position to continue being great with the right hires.

[Eye]

Why does anyone put UConn in the elite category? They were sheet until two things happened: 1. BE 2. Calhoun. The BE is a constant but Calhoun is not coming back. Much will depend on the successor.

I feel the same way about Duke, too. They were sheet until K came along. Same with Zona. Personally I hope Sean Miller craps in is cheerios down there and Zona goes back to being a middle of the pack program in a mediocre conference.

Uh, Duke lost in the NC2A final to UK in 1978 and were pretty darned good in the early and mid-60s. Far from sheet.

U of A made back-to-back tourneys in the mid- to late 70s but were poor for most of their history prior to that. But with just one senior and one junior on the roster, they ought to be back to being pretty good again sooner rather than later, maybe next year, but for sure in two years again I would imagine. The whole Pac 10 is similarly young and should make a similar improvement.

[Eye]

As for SJU, as a guy who sees a lot of similarities in the programs between MU and SJU, and therefore has a little bit of a soft spot for them, I thought Roberts had maybe earned himself one final shot, but Father Harrigan was pretty succinct at the end of last year that Roberts had to make the tourney this year to keep his job. I wouldn't have been distraught had he been given one more year to get the job done, but I also can see the argument that they were on a Deane-like slope. Just be sure to get someone better.

And BTW, SJU will make the NIT this year.

[GGGG]

That's what football consists of now as well.  I trust that there is enough history, intelligence, and maturity that they can work out the money issue as they've been able to for 5 years running.  What would the basketball side consist of for the football schools?  No longer the best conference in the land without us, Nova, Georgetown, Notre Dame, and a few doormats that give those schools enough wins to make the NCAAs year in and year out.  And as far as the doormats, are Rutgers and USF, possibly even Cincy going to be willing to cast their basketball programs into the depths because they won't be able to compete with the powerhouses that remain?  Who are they going to draw besides MAC or worse teams to make the football conference 10-12 teams and not be inferior to the Big Ten in basketball (and still remain so in football)?  Even if Nova or even Georgetown decided to play football, are we really that useless that we wouldn't be able to work out an arrangement to remain in the conference without playing football?  I doubt it.

Football $$$ is so much greater than basketball $$$ that any school with a football program is going to position themselves so they aren't the ones left standing when the music stops.

Furthermore, *if* the BE breaks apart, don't be too sure that the basketball schools are just going to automatically stay together.  IMO, if that happens all sorts of things could pan out across all sorts of conferences.  Right now, MU would be a valuable asset under such a scenario.  We have to stay that way however.

[GGGG]

St. John's and DePaul...two sleeping giants in two of the largest markets in the country. They have both been half-a$$ing it for years, and they both are at a point where they need to decide what they want to be. They can continue down the road they have been on, or they can learn from schools like MU, Villanova, etc., and make the decisions and investments necessary to turn themselves back into real programs. If they choose the former, they might as well leave the Big East. If they choose the latter, they could both become pretty good, pretty quickly.

I don't know about St. John's., but I really have a hard time considering DePaul a "sleeping giant."  They haven't been relevant in 25 years.  Their program just stinks.  No buzz at all in Chicago.  Frankly, they are about a half-step up from Loyola at this point...and a staircase below their BE peers.

[MUBurrow]

I dont even understand what difference it makes if Duke was elite before Coach K got there or not. Even if they were sheet - which they werent - but even if they were elite, the fact that Coach K made them successful doesn't mean you can't qualify the whole program as elite. He has been there for 30 years! How long does it take before you are willing to qualify a program as elite?

Similarly, Calhoun has been at UConn for almost 25 years.

In a quarter of a century, a lot changes. The commitment of schools to their basketball programs changes, how attractive schools and the regions in which they reside changes.  That is plenty of time for a school to become elite.

History isnt exactly riddled with programs that have been dominant for the better part of 30 years only to fade into oblivion. Even if it were, if you are going to demand that a program has been great since Jim Crow laws prevented black players from playing on certain teams, any type of assessment as to elite or not loses any practical value anyway.

[chapman]

Furthermore, *if* the BE breaks apart, don't be too sure that the basketball schools are just going to automatically stay together.  IMO, if that happens all sorts of things could pan out across all sorts of conferences.  Right now, MU would be a valuable asset under such a scenario.  We have to stay that way however.

Agreed.  And also that it's not like all the football schools are going to disassociate from any school without DI football.  It's not like not having a football team discredits being the highest spending basketball program in the conference, one of two with five straight 10+ win seasons, or one of three with five straight NCAA appearances.  We won't be asking football schools to give us all their football revenue, and they're not going to kick us (or Nova or GTown) to the curb simply because we don't have DI football teams when we're valuable assets to their conferences.

[GGGG]

Agreed.  And also that it's not like all the football schools are going to disassociate from any school without DI football.  It's not like not having a football team discredits being the highest spending basketball program in the conference, one of two with five straight 10+ win seasons, or one of three with five straight NCAA appearances.  We won't be asking football schools to give us all their football revenue, and they're not going to kick us (or Nova or GTown) to the curb simply because we don't have DI football teams when we're valuable assets to their conferences.

But I guess my point is, if the BE breaks apart, and I'm MU, Georgetown or Nova, I would look real hard at every option before I just cast my lot with Providence, Seton Hall and DePaul.  I would think that all sorts of options would be considered...including a conference that is some sort of combination of the BE and the A10.  I mean, I would much rather look at schools like Xavier, Dayton and Temple - schools that actually invest money into their basketball programs.

[ATWizJr]

So is Providence College an elite program? Wisconsin must be better than Duke since the won it all back before there was a Berlin Wall.

Guamite, if you were smart, you'd understand that BMA has great credibility.  But, that's if you were smart.

[GGGG]

Here is what I wrote: Why does anyone put UConn in the elite category?...I feel the same way about Duke, too.

So answer my question - you must then also consider PC to be an elite program and that UW was superior to pre-K Duke since they won a title back in the '40's.

Take away K's wins and Duke was a solid but hardly elite program. It will be interesting to see how the transition and post K era goes. The next shapter is more important in this mystery story, wouldn't you agree?

This is just silly thinking.  How was UCLA before Wooden?  Kentucky before Rupp?  Great coaches *can* turn programs from very good to elite.

[Aughnanure]

If you feel that way, then you don't know much about basketball.  Duke was already a great program before Coach K got there.  They'd been to 4 Final Fours, won multiple conference championships in the ACC and Southern Conference, had multiple National Player of the Year winners and Hall of Fame coaches.

I was about to reply to the same thing. Duke was a name before K got there.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Exactly.  How was Wisconsin before Bo Ryan \ Dick Bennett....basically a shiet program for 50+ years

[Dave Krupinski]

I'll chime in here.

Norm Roberts has done a nice job of making us a respectable program after being involved in embarrassing scandals. However 6 years has been plenty of time to overcome this hurdle. We're in NYC a mega pipeline of talent and we just can't get it. Baylor didn't need 6 years to overcome their scandals (murder).

Its just time to move on and the time is now especially to give the new coach a year to recruit for 2011 where there are 9 scholarships opening up. In no way could Norm recruit next year with there being 0 certainty he'd be retained. It would be unfair to both him and the school.

As to the current talent he's brought in they're way better than what they've shown. I believe with all bias aside there is more talent on St. John's than there is on Marquette and that's no slight to MU. I'd love to see Buzz Williams coach the current crop of player at St. John's because this team could win a lot more with proper game planning, structure, and court discipline.

As to the future the kid thats coming in next year someone pointed out he's a 3 star recruit not in the top 150. I'll be curious where his rank finishes because he's damn good. Best player Norm has ever gotten. I go to plenty of AAU and highschool games and see kids first hand and Ron Roberts is very very good. I give kudos to Norm and staff for locking him up early but like they did with Burrell etc but they don't develop or utilize their players properly. As for 2011 we have Davontay Grace who is ehh ok. He's solid first signee to a big class but he won't be All-Big East or anything he's an average player.

Its just sad and embarrassing at this point. I wish Norm Roberts the best of luck in his future he's an honorable man but its just time for him to move on.

[GuamanianTerror]

Guamite, if you were smart, you'd understand that BMA has great credibility.  But, that's if you were smart.

What gives him this "great credibility?"

[GGGG]

What gives him this "great credibility?"

Because he posts here all that time, and is generally proven correct about 95% of the time.  As opposed to someone who has posted here 35 times and has really yet proven to be accurate.  I mean, when your first post is defending the job Norm Roberts has done....  I mean, he's 81-100 at St. Johns.

[chapman]

What gives him this "great credibility?"

Has facts, great knowledge, knows history, knows recruiting.  You're free to disagree with opinions, just realize that most here do place high value on those opinions.