Tonight is our last shot to get a win against a conference opponent

[79Warrior]

with 10 or more wins. Heard Gotleib talking on MU this morning. His criticism of MU was simple, we have no wins against teams higher than us in the league. He feels we need to beat The Ville to get another quality win. I guess after The Hoyas lost yesterday he is right for now.

[RubyWiscy]

Wow. Kinda twisted logic, don't you think?  Is it our fault that Georgetown has crashed and burned?  They were ranked pretty high when we played them if I am not mistaken.

On the other hand, I guess MU is not looked at as a team expected to finish 12th in the league anymore. Expectations have risen!

[TJ]

Wow. Kinda twisted logic, don't you think.  By definition then Syracuse is a bubble team as well.

So you're arguing against what you think is twisted logic with logic that is even more twisted?

Can you really say that we have any high quality conference wins?  Georgetown and UConn aren't exactly cooperating with us on that one...

[Tom Crean's Tanning Bed]

with 10 or more wins. Heard Gotleib talking on MU this morning. His criticism of MU was simple, we have no wins against teams higher than us in the league. He feels we need to beat The Ville to get another quality win. I guess after The Hoyas lost yesterday he is right for now.

Since when is Doug Gottlieb on the NCAA Selection Committee?  Nor any of these bracketologists for that matter.  

11 Big East wins are 11 Big East wins. At this point, it doesn't matter which one of the next 2 we get (although I'd like it to be tonight for BET/NCAA seeding purposes), but if we end up losing tonight and beating ND Saturday, I'd love to see Gottlieb make the arguement that an 11 win Big East team should be left out of the NCAA Tournament.  

A 10 win BE team left out? It has happened twice.  An 11 win team left out?  Ain't happening.

[RubyWiscy]

TJ I edited my post before I read yours. My initial knee jerk reaction was negative to Gottlieb's comments. As I thought them over, I think they are more positive than negative.

[pillardean]

Gottleib is right.  We haven't won a Big East game against someone ranked higher than us-currently.  Someone could say that there is a reason for that-we beat them and passed them in the standings.  When you're tied for fifth or whatever in the conference and three of the top four teams are top ten teams with the other up there as well I could see why we haven't beaten someone higher than us in the Big East.  Even if we beat Louisville we still wouldn't have beaten anyone higher than us in the Big East-for we would have passed up Louisville.

So in ending, that whole damn premise is stupid. 

[flash]

With 11 Big East wins we are a LOCK.  If we lose our next three we are back on the bubble, but that is very unlikeley

[CDK]

I'm pretty sure Syracuse hasn't beaten anyone ahead of them in the standings, is that going to be a big problem for them come selection time? 

[Jacks DC]

I don't understand the logic of comparing "quality wins" with teams in the same conference.  I mean isn't it essentially a zero sum game?  Yes, its great for Louisville that they won at Syracuse and we did not, but that doesn't change the fact that they lost at Seton Hall and at St. John's (by 19 btw) and at home against Georgetown.  Don't we get credit for going 3-0 in those same games?

[Pakuni]

Does this mean MU will be playing only lower seeds in the Big East tourney?
Sweet.

[babytownfrolics]

We don't get credit for beating Georgetown because they are below us in the Big East standings, yet they are considered a "lock" for the NCAAs despite the fact that they are below us in the standings.

That is just stupid.  Georgetown's recent losses don't change the fact that that was a quality win.

[MUBurrow]

I think the scenario is pretty simple just looking at the standings.

Lose the next two and we're in biiig trouble. We would likely be 7-8 in the standings, and even if were 7, our resume loses to Georgetown every time.

Win against the 'ville and we're in. It locks us ahead of both them, ND, and Georgetown.

Lose to UL and beat ND and we really need one in the BE tourney to feel good about ourselves.

[mileskishnish72]

I don't think we did so hot vs. teams ahead of us in the BE last year, either.

[ChicosBailBonds]

It's our last chance to get a win against a team ahead \ tied with us in the standings.

0-5 against the teams ahead of us.  10-1 against the teams behind us

Win one of the next two and it doesn't matter anymore.  Lose 3 straight.......let's just hope that doesn't happen.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I don't think we did so hot vs. teams ahead of us in the BE last year, either.

Correct.  Last year we had one win against a team ahead of us...Villanova. 

[Warrior1969]

So according to Gotlieb then if we beat UL tonight they would then be behind us, so would it no longer be a good win?

[Wareagle]

Gottleib is right.  We haven't won a Big East game against someone ranked higher than us-currently.  Someone could say that there is a reason for that-we beat them and passed them in the standings.  When you're tied for fifth or whatever in the conference and three of the top four teams are top ten teams with the other up there as well I could see why we haven't beaten someone higher than us in the Big East.  Even if we beat Louisville we still wouldn't have beaten anyone higher than us in the Big East-for we would have passed up Louisville.

So in ending, that whole damn premise is stupid. 

Agreed.  Syracuse has no wins over a higher ranked team either...

[babytownfrolics]

So according to Gotlieb then if we beat UL tonight they would then be behind us, so would it no longer be a good win?

Right, so the moral of the story is, beat Ville tonight, then lose to ND on Saturday on purpose and hope that Ville beats Cuse, so we'll at least have a win against a team that is tied with us in the standings

[MUBurrow]

i think we're looking at this through extreme Blue and Gold colored glasses and needlessly berating a good point that Gottlieb is making.  we are a bubble team. we are not a top team with only one or two teams ahead of us in the standings. if i were on the committee, i would rate wins against villanova, or west virginia ahead of those against cincinnati and rutgers.  lets not grossly oversimplify the effect that has on moving up in the standings because we want to overvalue our own resume.

[Ready2Fly]

Correct.  Last year we had one win against a team ahead of us...Villanova. 

How many of those games were played without James?  UConn, Louisville, Pitt - all without James.  1-1 vs. Nova with DJ.

[MikeyT42]

In general terms. You typically don't beat teams that are ahead of you. Thats why they are ahead of you!

[Fightin 411]

So according to Gotlieb then if we beat UL tonight they would then be behind us, so would it no longer be a good win?

You're right!  So a win tonight doesn't even matter!

11 BE wins and we're in.  I think anyone would've taken 10 BE wins in a heartbeat in December.

[MuMark]

We are not a bubble team right now.

If we lose our last 3 we could work our way back to the bubble as of now we are solidly in the field according to virtually everyone.


Maybe Gottleib should tell us of the teams he would put in ahead of MU who most of the experts don't have currently in the tournament field so we can compare them?

If he wants to say we are not a powerhouse team capable of winning it all......I'm fine with that.

We have 2 top 20 RPI wins and we won at UCONN(who beat Texas, Nova and WV).

He basically said on TV the other night that Xavier was a lock(which I agree with) but lets take a look at who they have beaten. They didn't beat us.....They lost to Kansas State(understandable).....They lost to Baylor.....good team.....Butler? Lost.....Wake? ......nope......

So who have they beaten.....well they just beat Richmond....in 2ots...but good win....They beat Cincy....at home...in 2ots.....(we beat them on the road.....in only 1 ot......big advantage to us! lol)

Other then that? Split with bubble team Dayton. Lost to Temple. Beat bubble team Rhode Island twice......won at Florida(solid win over a 9-11 seed) and beat Charlotte twice(they aren't going to make it).

Why is that record so much better then what MU has done? They don't have the 2 bad losses we have and they have a higher RPI but our wins are better and we play in a better conference.

DG wants to make it black and white and it rarely is.

Sure it would be nice to beat Louisville but as was said above they are tied with us now not ahead of us. If we beat them they won't be ahead of us......When we beat GT they were ahead of us......

His whole argument is just silly.......Last year we were a lock and only beat 1 team ahead of us in the standings.....we also lost to them twice(one was a blowout).

[Marquette84]

We are not a bubble team right now.

If we lose our last 3 we could work our way back to the bubble as of now we are solidly in the field according to virtually everyone.


Maybe Gottleib should tell us of the teams he would put in ahead of MU who most of the experts don't have currently in the tournament field so we can compare them?

If he wants to say we are not a powerhouse team capable of winning it all......I'm fine with that.

We have 2 top 20 RPI wins and we won at UCONN(who beat Texas, Nova and WV).

He basically said on TV the other night that Xavier was a lock(which I agree with) but lets take a look at who they have beaten. They didn't beat us.....They lost to Kansas State(understandable).....They lost to Baylor.....good team.....Butler? Lost.....Wake? ......nope......

So who have they beaten.....well they just beat Richmond....in 2ots...but good win....They beat Cincy....at home...in 2ots.....(we beat them on the road.....in only 1 ot......big advantage to us! lol)

Other then that? Split with bubble team Dayton. Lost to Temple. Beat bubble team Rhode Island twice......won at Florida(solid win over a 9-11 seed) and beat Charlotte twice(they aren't going to make it).

Why is that record so much better then what MU has done? They don't have the 2 bad losses we have and they have a higher RPI but our wins are better and we play in a better conference.

DG wants to make it black and white and it rarely is.

Sure it would be nice to beat Louisville but as was said above they are tied with us now not ahead of us. If we beat them they won't be ahead of us......When we beat GT they were ahead of us......

His whole argument is just silly.......Last year we were a lock and only beat 1 team ahead of us in the standings.....we also lost to them twice(one was a blowout).

I think we're seeing the result of lowered expectations at the start of the year.

There isn't any good reason why we should be ranked behind Georgetown right now--we beat them head-to-head, we're ahead of them in the league standings by two games in the loss column, they can do no better than tie with us--and thats if we lose both remaining games and they beat Cincy.

Yet they are ranked significantly ahead of us, and the bracketologists collectively put them as a 4 seed and us as a 10 seed.

The only logical explanation is that those initial pre-season expectations--the ones everyone says don't matter--actually DO matter a lot more than people think.

All year long Georgetown has been given credit as a top 25 team (Preseason 20th AP, 21st ESPN), and right now people have actually improved their perception (19th AP, 20th ESPN). 

All year long we nave not been considered a top 25 team, and we are still not.

So its either those pre-season expecctations hold more sawy than anyone wants to admit, or they get more credit for beating three teams ahead of them (Pitt, VU, Louisville) than they get negatives for losing to the teams behind them (USF, Rutgers, Notre Dame)

One has to wonder if we would be a top 20 team/projected 4 seed if we had not lost to DePaul

...Last year we were a lock and only beat 1 team ahead of us in the standings....

I would say last year we got the benefit of the doubt given that we were 12-2 before James was injured, had already beaten Villanova, and hadn't played the other teams yet. 

[GOMU1104]

We are still on the bubble. Cant lose out...