mike deane

[RJax55]

You guys are completely discounting the fact that Buzz has ALREADY brought in the second and third leading scorers on this year's team, one of which is the #4 ranked player in offensive efficiency in the entire nation. Another of his players has until recently (due to injury/illness)logged the most minutes off the bench. They will still be here in addition to the influx of talent next year. Did Deane make the second tourney runs with three of his own players contributing so heavily?

Very good points. Butler in my mind is a 2nd team all conference performer and DJO has been as good as any first year player* in the league.

*Freshman or JUCOs... Not transfers, as that would be Johnson at 'Cuse.

[Lennys Tap]

You guys are completely discounting the fact that Buzz has ALREADY brought in the second and third leading scorers on this year's team, one of which is the #4 ranked player in offensive efficiency in the entire nation. Another of his players has until recently (due to injury/illness)logged the most minutes off the bench. They will still be here in addition to the influx of talent next year. Did Deane make the second tourney runs with three of his own players contributing so heavily?

Pay the man, Shirley.

[bma725]

Did Deane make the second tourney runs with three of his own players contributing so heavily?

Not exactly an apples to apples comparison. 

In his first two seasons, Deane signed 6 players....Polo, Lovette, Bargen, Mason, Cliff and Miller. 

In his first two seasons, Buzz signed 15...Otule, Fulce, Butler, McMorrow, DJO, Buycks, Williams, Maymon, Roseboro, Mbao, Blue, Smith, Jones, Newbill, Crowder. 

Buzz has essentially remade the roster within under two years, with only three being Crean's players during year two.  Deane still had three O'Neill recruits on the roster in year four. 

So far Buzz's recruiting looks better, but he's also had many more opportunities to get it right than Deane did.

[ChicosBailBonds]

You guys are completely discounting the fact that Buzz has ALREADY brought in the second and third leading scorers on this year's team, one of which is the #4 ranked player in offensive efficiency in the entire nation. Another of his players has until recently (due to injury/illness)logged the most minutes off the bench. They will still be here in addition to the influx of talent next year. Did Deane make the second tourney runs with three of his own players contributing so heavily?

Not discounting it, but I believe it's not quite that simple. 

I'm a big big big believer in guards make the world go round in college hoops, especially the point guard.  If the PG can't distribute, the guys can't score.  Watching next year with JC will be the biggest part of the equation to me, followed by who is going to take up for Lazar.

You can't score if you don't have the ball in the right position to score.  Sort of like having an all world receiver but no QB (yes, not a perfect analogy, but you get the idea).

[Ready2Fly]

Otule, Fulce, McMorrow, Butler, DJO, Buycks, Cadougan, Williams, Maymon and Roseboro are the only players I was considering since they've already had a chance to enter into in the program. I was intentionally leaving out the players yet to come, as anything can happen with them as we all know. Two of them are absolute studs, and another is a significant contributor off the bench. How does that change my point at all? In year two, two of the top three and three of the top six players are Buzz' guys. Was that the case with Deane? I honestly don't know. Please enlighten me.

[Ready2Fly]

Not discounting it, but I believe it's not quite that simple. 

I'm a big big big believer in guards make the world go round in college hoops, especially the point guard.  If the PG can't distribute, the guys can't score.  Watching next year with JC will be the biggest part of the equation to me, followed by who is going to take up for Lazar.

You can't score if you don't have the ball in the right position to score.  Sort of like having an all world receiver but no QB (yes, not a perfect analogy, but you get the idea).

So are you really saying the only reason DJO and Butler are lighting up the scoreboard is because Acker is creating all their scoring opportunities for them?  That's extremely disingenuous, to say the least.  I like Acker, and he's performing way better than I thought he would, but I'd argue his scoring production is mainly off of DJO and Butler's drive and kick, not the other way around.

Answer the question: did Deane ever make a tourney run with his own players contributing as much as Butler, DJO and Buycks have?  I seriously don't know, I wasn't even in high school yet when he was MU's coach and I grew up halfway across the country.

[ChicosBailBonds]

So are you really saying the only reason DJO and Butler are lighting up the scoreboard is because Acker is creating all their scoring opportunities for them?  That's extremely disingenuous, to say the least.  I like Acker, and he's performing way better than I thought he would, but I'd argue his scoring production is mainly off of DJO and Butler's drive and kick, not the other way around.

Answer the question: did Deane ever make a tourney run with his own players contributing as much as Butler, DJO and Buycks have?  I seriously don't know, I wasn't even in high school yet when he was MU's coach and I grew up halfway across the country.

Nope, would never say that is the ONLY reason.  They are extremely talented players.  Each team, however, is different.  We shoot very well from the perimeter (including DJO) and that helps other guys.  Two of those three perimeter guys will move on after this year (Acker and Hayward), how does that affect the team.  

And, as stated before, when we lead the Big East in turnover margin, which I attribute mostly to senior guards who value the ball, what happens next year with a less experienced PG.  That it was what I will be looking for next season.  The kids he has brought it on are very talented but also helped by some of the key parts at other positions.  PG play is essential, just ask UCLA and North Carolina among others this year.

But that's next year, let's get a win in these last two and enjoy the ride.

[Ready2Fly]

Nope, would never say that is the ONLY reason.  They are extremely talented players.  Each team, however, is different.  We shoot very well from the perimeter (including DJO) and that helps other guys.  Two of those three perimeter guys will move on after this year (Acker and Hayward), how does that affect the team.  

And, as stated before, when we lead the Big East in turnover margin, which I attribute mostly to senior guards who value the ball, what happens next year with a less experienced PG.  That it was what I will be looking for next season.  The kids he has brought it on are very talented but also helped by some of the key parts at other positions.  PG play is essential, just ask UCLA and North Carolina among others this year.

But that's next year, let's get a win in these last two and enjoy the ride.

Did Deane ever make a tourney run with his own players contributing as much as Butler, DJO and Buycks have?

[bma725]

Otule, Fulce, McMorrow, Butler, DJO, Buycks, Cadougan, Williams, Maymon and Roseboro are the only players I was considering since they've already had a chance to enter into in the program. I was intentionally leaving out the players yet to come, as anything can happen with them as we all know. Two of them are absolute studs, and another is a significant contributor off the bench. How does that change my point at all? In year two, two of the top three and three of the top six players are Buzz' guys. Was that the case with Deane? I honestly don't know. Please enlighten me.

You left out Mbao, but the point remains the same whether you look at who's here or who is coming.  At the same point in their time at MU, Buzz had completed two recruiting cycles and brought in 11 players, where as Deane only had one recruiting cycle(after his first year) and only brought in 3 three players in that class.  Because of the amount of available scholarships, Buzz has a much greater opportunity for success.  Not only that, but he was also working under a much less restrictive regime.  You may not recall, MU used to have an unwritten policy of not allowing the coaches to bring in JUCO players.  Until Crean got here, we hadn't recruited one since the Dukiet days.  So Deane couldn't go out and get anyone like that, while Buzz has been able to bring in 4 of them.

Of the three guys Deane brought in, one never amounted to anything(Polo).  The other two(Lovette and Bargen) became starters and double figure scorers by the end of their respective careers, but at this same point, they hadn't done anything due to the fact that O'Neill left behind far more talent than Crean did.

[Ready2Fly]

You left out Mbao, but the point remains the same whether you look at who's here or who is coming.  At the same point in their time at MU, Buzz had completed two recruiting cycles and brought in 11 players, where as Deane only had one recruiting cycle(after his first year) and only brought in 3 three players in that class.  Because of the amount of available scholarships, Buzz has a much greater opportunity for success.  Not only that, but he was also working under a much less restrictive regime.  You may not recall, MU used to have an unwritten policy of not allowing the coaches to bring in JUCO players.  Until Crean got here, we hadn't recruited one since the Dukiet days.  So Deane couldn't go out and get anyone like that, while Buzz has been able to bring in 4 of them.

Of the three guys Deane brought in, one never amounted to anything(Polo).  The other two(Lovette and Bargen) became starters and double figure scorers by the end of their respective careers, but at this same point, they hadn't done anything due to the fact that O'Neill left behind far more talent than Crean did.

And you left out Cadougan, but the point remains that I really don't know a single thing about the Deane era, and I respect your recruiting knowledge.  I'm not trying to compare the two recruiting-wise.  I'm addressing the "wait and see" crowd who are comparing the Deane era year two with the Buzz era year two.  I really don't know if Deane ever made a run with his own players, which is why I'm asking.  I think the major flaw in the argument is that Buzz already has a significant amount of his own players contributing at a high level, so I guess I don't understand what they're "waiting to see."

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Wasn't Tyrone Baldwin a JUCO under O'Neill?

[bma725]

Wasn't Tyrone Baldwin a JUCO under O'Neill?

He was a Dukiet recruit and played his first year under Piano Bob.  O'Neill came in during Baldwin's second year.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

And you left out Cadougan, but the point remains that I really don't know a single thing about the Deane era, and I respect your recruiting knowledge.  I'm not trying to compare the two recruiting-wise.  I'm addressing the "wait and see" crowd who are comparing the Deane era year two with the Buzz era year two.  I really don't know if Deane ever made a run with his own players, which is why I'm asking.  I think the major flaw in the argument is that Buzz already has a significant amount of his own players contributing at a high level, so I guess I don't understand what they're "waiting to see."

Mike Davis.

Matt Doherty.

Coach K.

Bruce Weber.


My only point has been that you can't know what a coach is really capable of after only 2 seasons.

If Buzz sucked right now, would you want to fire him?

[GGGG]

And you left out Cadougan, but the point remains that I really don't know a single thing about the Deane era, and I respect your recruiting knowledge.  I'm not trying to compare the two recruiting-wise.  I'm addressing the "wait and see" crowd who are comparing the Deane era year two with the Buzz era year two.  I really don't know if Deane ever made a run with his own players, which is why I'm asking.  I think the major flaw in the argument is that Buzz already has a significant amount of his own players contributing at a high level, so I guess I don't understand what they're "waiting to see."

I am waiting to see accomplishments.  Honestly, he hasn't really done that much from a completely objective point of view.  I think he has a real good start and is showing good promise, but as he done anything more than a number of coaches out there?

[bma725]

And you left out Cadougan, but the point remains that I really don't know a single thing about the Deane era, and I respect your recruiting knowledge.  I'm not trying to compare the two recruiting-wise.  I'm addressing the "wait and see" crowd who are comparing the Deane era year two with the Buzz era year two.  I really don't know if Deane ever made a run with his own players, which is why I'm asking.  I think the major flaw in the argument is that Buzz already has a significant amount of his own players contributing at a high level, so I guess I don't understand what they're "waiting to see."

Deane only had two years that you could consider making a run, his second and third.  In his second year, only 3 of the 13 were Deane's recruits, two were back ups, one redshirted.  In his third year, 6 of 14 players were Deane's recruits.  One, Lovette, was a starter.  Two others, Bargen and West, were contributors off the bench.  He didn't have a full roster of his own players until his fifth and final year.

The wait and see attitude comes down to the fact that Buzz has been put in a situation where his guys had to contribute or he would have had major problems.  He only has 3 guys on the roster that aren't his recruits.  Deane didn't have that few until his fourth year.

[MUBBALL]

am waiting to see accomplishments.  Honestly, he hasn't really done that much from a completely objective point of view.  I think he has a real good start and is showing good promise, but as he done anything more than a number of coaches out there?

Wow... what has he done.. taken a team picked to finish 12th in the BEAST to the verge of a NCAA tournament.  It is one thing to wait and see for 3-4 years.  Which by my count is only 1-2 years out, however to suggest he has not done anything more than a number of coaches out there.. I guess you are correct he has not managed to take a team with the talent of UCONN or NC this year and not make the NCAA's... what he has done with this talent is amazing as our the players.. go get the Cardinals tonight.. tough game..If I did not get the teal correct my first post..

Could not ignore that comment

[GGGG]

Wow... what has he done.. taken a team picked to finish 12th in the BEAST to the verge of a NCAA tournament.  It is one thing to wait and see for 3-4 years.  Which by my count is only 1-2 years out, however to suggest he has not done anything more than a number of coaches out there.. I guess you are correct he has not managed to take a team with the talent of UCONN or NC this year and not make the NCAA's... what he has done with this talent is amazing as our the players.. go get the Cardinals tonight.. tough game..If I did not get the teal correct my first post..

He took over a team with senior leadership last year and lost in the second round...mostly due to injury.  He has clearly overaccomplished this year no doubt.  But on the face of it, it really isn't that much.  I am expecting more in the next few years, as I would think you would too.  However, since he hasn't had time to build on what he has started, and hasn't yet had the results to meet the expectations, that is what I said what I did.

[TheBudaPest]

You may not recall, MU used to have an unwritten policy of not allowing the coaches to bring in JUCO players. 

That's bull. Al thrived on Jucos.

[Lennys Tap]

Deane only had two years that you could consider making a run, his second and third.  In his second year, only 3 of the 13 were Deane's recruits, two were back ups, one redshirted.  In his third year, 6 of 14 players were Deane's recruits.  One, Lovette, was a starter.  Two others, Bargen and West, were contributors off the bench.  He didn't have a full roster of his own players until his fifth and final year.

The wait and see attitude comes down to the fact that Buzz has been put in a situation where his guys had to contribute or he would have had major problems.  He only has 3 guys on the roster that aren't his recruits.  Deane didn't have that few until his fourth year.

So all but 3 of the guys on this year's team are Buzz recruits and that's why people have a "wait and see" attitude. Please explain what I'm missing as that doesn't make sense to me.

[bma725]

That's bull. Al thrived on Jucos.

Yeah, and then Raynor, DiUlio and Wild forbid coaches from signing them.  Check your history. We didn't have one from Ty Baldwin in 1989 until Crean went begging to Wild so that he could sign Marcus Jackson in 2003. 

[The Pickle]

I haven't read all the background so sorry if I'm being redundant but why would Father Wild care if we recruited JUCO kids?

[NersEllenson]

Deane only had two years that you could consider making a run, his second and third.  In his second year, only 3 of the 13 were Deane's recruits, two were back ups, one redshirted.  In his third year, 6 of 14 players were Deane's recruits.  One, Lovette, was a starter.  Two others, Bargen and West, were contributors off the bench.  He didn't have a full roster of his own players until his fifth and final year.

The wait and see attitude comes down to the fact that Buzz has been put in a situation where his guys had to contribute or he would have had major problems.  He only has 3 guys on the roster that aren't his recruits.  Deane didn't have that few until his fourth year.

Not sure I see the point in how comparing Buzz and Deane isn't exactly apples to apples - perhaps you could say the 2 situations are in reversed order.  But consider this proposition - if Deane had fewer scholarships to offer, it is the result of his predecessor having balanced recruitinng classes which included talented players..which Deane had the benefit of going on to be successful with for 2 years.  Buzz on the other had was left with perhaps 6 talented players in year 1, but that dropped to 3 players in Year 2.  Also, by virtue of the above logic it clearly shows that as time moved on and Mike Deane became more reliant on his recruits - the results suffered, which leads me to believe his recruiting wasn't very good.  Buzz has had to overcome McMorrow, Maymon, Otule and Cadougan injuries - so let's not give Deane a pass on the would of/could of scenario with Alton Mason, DeMarcus Minor, LeDaryl Billingsly...

[bma725]

I haven't read all the background so sorry if I'm being redundant but why would Father Wild care if we recruited JUCO kids?

The university had been embarrassed by the academic issues that the program had under Dukiet, both by JUCOs and non-JUCOs.  So Raynor put his foot down after Tyrone Baldwin in an effort to repair the image of MU basketball's academic reputation.  DiUlio and Wild just continued the policy.

[Lennys Tap]

Wow... what has he done.. taken a team picked to finish 12th in the BEAST to the verge of a NCAA tournament.  It is one thing to wait and see for 3-4 years.  Which by my count is only 1-2 years out, however to suggest he has not done anything more than a number of coaches out there.. I guess you are correct he has not managed to take a team with the talent of UCONN or NC this year and not make the NCAA's... what he has done with this talent is amazing as our the players.. go get the Cardinals tonight.. tough game..If I did not get the teal correct my first post..

Could not ignore that comment

+1

[NersEllenson]

So all but 3 of the guys on this year's team are Buzz recruits and that's why people have a "wait and see" attitude. Please explain what I'm missing as that doesn't make sense to me.

I'd have to say you are missing nothing, and agree 100%