who will last longer at his current job?

[The Pickle]

Buzz or TC?
If you asked me before the season I would said Crean in a heartbeat, but not I'm not so sure. While MU's future looks bright, another year of blowouts at IU and the faithful will be screaming.

I didn't read any posts and not even sure why I am posting because I think this topic is discussed weekly.  I hate Crean.  I like Buzz. I vote Buzz.

[The Pickle]

The more I thought about it the less this makes sense.  You are comparing two coaches who are connected by being MU coaches past and present.  I get that.  But one (Buzz) is overachieving this year and likely heading to the NCAA and then you have Crean who's team is getting sh!t canned every game.  It doesn't makre for a very thrilling comparison...

[classof70]

First, I take Buzz at this word that he loves the job and place and intends to stay. However,  I also think if the right job came along, he'd leave MU.  "Right job" would be something in a more southerly clime, preferrably Texas.  Second, as to the continued Crean bashing, I would only point out that for such a jerk, he sure recruited class student-atheletes, ie., Wade, Jackson, Novak Diener, James, Matthews, McNeal, Hayward.....  MU's "presence" and reputation is reflected in these kinds of players all of whom were recruited by someone who many appear to believe was/is the Beelzebub of college coaches.  All of the aforementioned players  are class representatives of a great institution.  For that alone, I'm glad Crean was there. 

[MUBurrow]

Just to jump in a little late on an earlier point, I think its incredibly difficult if not impossible for mid major jobs to ever be destination jobs.  The best ones that come to mind are Gonzaga, Xavier, Memphis, and Butler.  Of those, Xavier just lost its coach to Arizona (not elite, but certainly the next step down). Butler lost its coach to Iowa (ewww) not too long ago.  Memphis, well, we all know where he is.  And that leaves Gonzaga, where I still think Few is waiting for the perfect job to come along.  More of a personal choice than a commentary on the school.  Of those four mid major jobs that are among the best in the country, two have recently lost their coaches to non elite programs.

As for MU, in my head we fit into a sort of third tier of teams.  Top tier are naturally the KU,UNC,UCLA,UK, etc etc.  Then there is a second tier that would include programs such as Georgetown, Arizona, Texas, etc.  Then there is the next level that is made up of a BCS schools that are great jobs, but lack the size or tradition, or money of the schools above them.  Schools such as MU, Tennessee, Wisconsin, Georgia Tech, etc make up that tier.

[chren21]

I agree and that is really hard to say cause we want to think of MU as top tier.  Well said.

[MU83]

Crean's got a long term contract which I believe keeps him at IU for at least 3 or 4 more years (his contract is for longer than that).  If IU is not going to NCAA tourneys on a consistent basis at that point and showing signs of being a final four contender soon after that, he will be gone.  Crean's got a lot of work to do as his incoming freshman class is O.K., but he needs more than O.K.  There is always a ton of talent in Indiana, but I believe if he doesn't land Teague and Zeller for 2011, he's in trouble long term.

Buzz will stay at MU until he takes them to the final four and gets an offer from a better basketball school.  In order for that to happen, I believe Buzz will have to be at Marquette for quite a while, so I'll go with Buzz.

[Litehouse]

The more I thought about it the less this makes sense.  You are comparing two coaches who are connected by being MU coaches past and present.  I get that.  But one (Buzz) is overachieving this year and likely heading to the NCAA and then you have Crean who's team is getting sh!t canned every game.  It doesn't makre for a very thrilling comparison...

But the point is that it isn't really a direct comparison, like who is better, it's an inverse comparison, since Crean leaving means he failed and Buzz leaving means he succeeded wildly.  So will Crean suck so bad at IU he gets fired before Buzz gets offered a job he can't refuse, I think that's what makes it a fun question.

[mugrack]

When Buzz leaves Marquette after his championships, does MU rehire Crean away from the DII school where he will be coaching at that time?

[The Pickle]

But the point is that it isn't really a direct comparison, like who is better, it's an inverse comparison, since Crean leaving means he failed and Buzz leaving means he succeeded wildly.  So will Crean suck so bad at IU he gets fired before Buzz gets offered a job he can't refuse, I think that's what makes it a fun question.

Ok, I see what direction this is being taken.  In that case, I think we have awhile before Buzz is leaving for "a better job".  If and when the opportunity arises, hopefully he will take a look around and realize he has it pretty good...

[Schoolyard]

I'll name you two stepping stone schools...

Xavier and Butler.  They're all in the NCAA every year.

I could give a rats tail about being called a stepping school.  If Buzz leaves tomorrow I'm confident Fr. Wild will find a suitable replacement. 

At this point, considering our conference instability we are a stepping stone job.  IU is a much, much better job, which of course makes it hilarious that TC is floundering so much there. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

I'll name you two stepping stone schools...

Xavier and Butler.  They're all in the NCAA every year.

I could give a rats tail about being called a stepping school.  If Buzz leaves tomorrow I'm confident Fr. Wild will find a suitable replacement. 

At this point, considering our conference instability we are a stepping stone job.  IU is a much, much better job, which of course makes it hilarious that TC is floundering so much there. 

Yes, but those are both mid-major conferences which is a HUGE difference.  When you're at the top of a mid-major and always winning, it's easier to recover with a new coach.  When you're in a major conference and go on a down streak, it's very difficult to come back.   See NC State, St. John's, DePaul, Seton Hall, etc, etc.  The margin for error to come back is smaller because there are so many good teams in the conference.  In the mid major conferences, the margin for error is much greater.

[Doctor V]

Yes, but those are both mid-major conferences which is a HUGE difference.  When you're at the top of a mid-major and always winning, it's easier to recover with a new coach.  When you're in a major conference and go on a down streak, it's very difficult to come back.   See NC State, St. John's, DePaul, Seton Hall, etc, etc.  The margin for error to come back is smaller because there are so many good teams in the conference.  In the mid major conferences, the margin for error is much greater.

Dont forget MU was in a mid major conference just 5 yrs ago. Its Indiana got us out according to you, kudos to him

Also dont forget that this season MU could have been one of those major conference teams that hires a new coach and goes on that down streak. Even though buzzsaw brought in a good class, injuries, transfers, and unsuccessful recruits along with losing the guys from last year could have led to the beginning of a downward spiral. Buzz Williams got us out of that, kudos to him

[ChicosBailBonds]

Dont forget MU was in a mid major conference just 5 yrs ago. Its Indiana got us out according to you, kudos to him

Also dont forget that this season MU could have been one of those major conference teams that hires a new coach and goes on that down streak. Even though buzzsaw brought in a good class, injuries, transfers, and unsuccessful recruits along with losing the guys from last year could have led to the beginning of a downward spiral. Buzz Williams got us out of that, kudos to him

Conference USA was a hybrid and not a true Mid Major when we were there.  The conference sent 4 or 5 teams a year to the NCAAs, at times sending more than the Big Ten did.  That's not the same as the Horizon (where Butler plays...1 bid conference) or the A-10 (normally a 2 or 3 bid conference....this year being the exception)

What do you mean this year could have been one of those years we would have hired a new coach?  Did Buzz almost leave after last season?  Or are you saying Crean would have left after last season?  Certainly possible, the timing would have been right, but what opening would he have taken that was available?  Memphis?

[Doctor V]

Conference USA was a hybrid and not a true Mid Major when we were there.  The conference sent 4 or 5 teams a year to the NCAAs, at times sending more than the Big Ten did.  That's not the same as the Horizon (where Butler plays...1 bid conference) or the A-10 (normally a 2 or 3 bid conference....this year being the exception)

What do you mean this year could have been one of those years we would have hired a new coach?  Did Buzz almost leave after last season?  Or are you saying Crean would have left after last season?  Certainly possible, the timing would have been right, but what opening would he have taken that was available?  Memphis?

Is 'hybrid' sorta like 'soft bubble'? I lost ya on the second point, but maybe because I just heard Lunardi say via skype that ND is the first team outta the dance... i think thats a little much just yet

[ChicosBailBonds]

Sorry, I was putting my clown makeup on.


Do you think that Conference USA with Cincinnati, Louisville, Marquette, etc was a mid major conference?  There's a reason why CUSA sent several teams to the Final Four and other mid major conferences didn't.  Because CUSA was not a mid-major conference.

You lost me on your original part about the hiring ..."Also dont forget that this season MU could have been one of those major conference teams that hires a new coach".  What did you mean by this?

[boyonthedock]

not to put words in his mouth, but im guessing he means with the three amigos gone MU could have taken a big step back and had a losing season with a coaching transition and all. It was not an unlikely scenario during preseason.

[NCWarrior85]

Buzz hands down.  One of two things will happen with Tom Crean.  Either he will be unsuccessful and eventually lose the gig or he will eventually achieve and be hired away by the NBA and the Indiana Pacers.  Why?  For no other reason than....... It's Indiana! ... It's Indiana!     

[4everwarriors]

Sorry, I was putting my clown makeup on.


Do you think that Conference USA with Cincinnati, Louisville, Marquette, etc was a mid major conference?  There's a reason why CUSA sent several teams to the Final Four and other mid major conferences didn't.  Because CUSA was not a mid-major conference.

You lost me on your original part about the hiring ..."Also dont forget that this season MU could have been one of those major conference teams that hires a new coach".  What did you mean by this?

People had they're jockstraps tied up in knots when Billy Packer called MU a mid-major. But, he was right. BTW, what has IU done since Davis took them to the FF? Still think it's a top 5 job? I never did. Was Bob Knight a top 5 coach? Absolutely, and that's why people think of the Hoosiers as a top 5 program. The Warriors were a top 5 program under Al and would have remained so had Al stayed longer than 13 years. The administration dropped their commitment to basketball when he left or didn't have the compass to continue on the right path.

[Doctor V]

not to put words in his mouth, but im guessing he means with the three amigos gone MU could have taken a big step back and had a losing season with a coaching transition and all. It was not an unlikely scenario during preseason.

Thats exactly what I meant, sometimes I complicate things

With the 3 seniors gone and a new coach in a tough conference, not to menion a recruiting class that didnt pan out as epected, MU could have gone into one hell of a tailspin

I say recruiting class that didnt exactly pan out because of an injury to junior, transfer of maymon, nonexistence of ewill and yous...Buzz has basically kept the program in the top half due to his JC signings of butler and djo and his coaching of this years undersized and undertalented overachieving squad

[ChicosBailBonds]

People had they're jockstraps tied up in knots when Billy Packer called MU a mid-major. But, he was right. BTW, what has IU done since Davis took them to the FF? Still think it's a top 5 job? I never did. Was Bob Knight a top 5 coach? Absolutely, and that's why people think of the Hoosiers as a top 5 program. The Warriors were a top 5 program under Al and would have remained so had Al stayed longer than 13 years. The administration dropped their commitment to basketball when he left or didn't have the compass to continue on the right path.

IU is one of the top 5 Programs of all time, but most certainly not one one of the top 5 jobs at this point.  I think I've been very consistent in those remarks that it's about the future and what it could be, not the present and what it is today.

Billy Packer was wrong and lazy

[Doctor V]

Sorry, I was putting my clown makeup on.


Do you think that Conference USA with Cincinnati, Louisville, Marquette, etc was a mid major conference?  There's a reason why CUSA sent several teams to the Final Four and other mid major conferences didn't.  Because CUSA was not a mid-major conference.

You lost me on your original part about the hiring ..."Also dont forget that this season MU could have been one of those major conference teams that hires a new coach".  What did you mean by this?

haha nice chicos, i may have overreacted  ... I agree with you that it wasnt a typical mid major conf, but others might not. Same way that some disagree that its a soft bubble (jay bilas agrees with you by the way)

[wildbill sb]

When Buzz leaves Marquette after his championships, does MU rehire Crean away from the DII school where he will be coaching at that time?

In the 50's Wisconsin-born-and-raised Lisle Blackburn (sp?) was a successful head football coach at MU.  Hired away by the Packers, he had a miserable experience (often called rookie Paul Hornung by the nickname "golden domer." - LOL)  "Liz" was canned for by Green Bay, and found his way back to MU as a replacement for the incredibly inept Johnny Druze, who MU hired away from ND, because he was such a good recruiter.  Marquette dropped football, ending LB's second tenure as head coach.

I have no idea why I posted this, except that the above suggested a parallel coaching tidbit from MU athletic history.

[ChicosBailBonds]

hooplooping bumper

[LON]

hooplooping bumper

Haha. You have wood, admit it.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Haha. You have wood, admit it.

Nope, and I'm worried about Lenny's health right now