Play of the game....

[warthog-driver]

How is that BS?  When TC left so did a number of BE caliber players that only wanted to play for TC.  

Taylor's deal had nothing to do with It's Indiana. Hardly. He got a better prom date and went for it, without so much as a by your leave to MU.

Nick Williams is not a BE quality starter. We will never know all the details of what happened in Bloomington but I think that record has been played before by the Tanned Maestro.

As for TM, I think we can all agree the program is much better off without him, can't we?

[Pakuni]

How is that BS?  When TC left so did a number of BE caliber players that only wanted to play for TC. 

They only wanted to play for TC? Then why didn't they all follow him to Indiana?
In fact, three of the four players who left chose to go somewhere Tom Crean wasn't.

Two of them - Taylor and Williams - asked out of their commitments long before Buzz Williams was named coach. So to suggest that they "didn't want to play for Buzz Williams" is assinine and false.
And BS.
They didn't want to come to Marquette, regardless of who was the coach.

[warthog-driver]

I recall someone posted here or on the other board that within a few days of the It's Indiana, It's Indiana April Fools Day Joke he saw Seltzer and Buckley at the Milwaukee Airport. They were all kitted out in Indiana garb and were headed down to Mobile, AL. This was before BW was named the MU coach.

The irony is I wonder what Nick would tell that crew today... 

[The Lens]

The best part about all of this is Chicos is just effing with people, whereas SJS actually believes it.

[Marquette84]

I think you're reaching SJS.  Bargen & Lovette were mce players but I think we relied on Amal, Eford, Piep, Crawford, Fai & Hutch just as much. 

Now that's what I call a well stocked cupboard. 

And I would call a team with McNeal, Matthews and James well stocked as well.  I guess your beef is that Crean left behind seniors instead of juniors.

Deane inherited a team that still needed development.  That's why they only made the NIT the following year.

Buzz inherited a team that virtually guaranteed him a top 4 finish in the Big East, and he made the NCAA tournament and damn near made the Sweet 16.

The best part about all of this is Chicos is just effing with people, whereas SJS actually believes it.

Yes, I truly believe that we made the NCAA tournament in Buzz's first year, and that we only made the NIT in Deane's first year.  BTW, I'm pretty sure Chicos truly believes that as well.

The question is why did you skip over the first season in your comparison of Deane to Buzz?

Never mind.  We know that answer.  Its a lot harder to argue that Crean left the cupboard bare when you  consider James, McNeal and Matthews. 

[akmarq]

Sometimes I have to wonder how Tom Crean - Buzz Williams/Chicos-Hayward has anything to do with this thread's title: "Play of the game..."

Hey guys, Crean's gone. Buzz is in. We have the players we have. Tom Crean has NOTHING to do with winning the most games we can this year (ever heard of a sunk cost?).

In the future, make a new thread for your pissing matchs and title it as such.

[mviale]

Stop falling into the Hate and doubt.  We are not going to the sweet 16 this year, but lets enjoy Lazar's last year and the improvement of the newcomers.  Also -does anyone remember this similar loss to Wisconsin.  
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=253440275

[Marquette84]

Sometimes I have to wonder how Tom Crean - Buzz Williams/Chicos-Hayward has anything to do with this thread's title: "Play of the game..."

I can tell you exactly how it happened.

Hayward started yet another thread to bitch about Crean, and he unfortunately chose to call it "Play of the game . . . "

7:17 left Mu claws back to down 54-57.  Wisco puts up a bad 3 and a rebound goes straight up and #5 Wilson? goes up and gets it over MU's interior players and lays it in.

a close second was Mu claws back in and Hughes gets a rebound and a foul over Hornswaggle ( thanks TC) 

and in 3rd place Mu claws back in and Bohannon gets a rebound over Cubillan. ( thanks TC)

[The Lens]

And I would call a team with McNeal, Matthews and James well stocked as well.  I guess your beef is that Crean left behind seniors instead of juniors.

Deane inherited a team that still needed development.  That's why they only made the NIT the following year.

Buzz inherited a team that virtually guaranteed him a top 4 finish in the Big East, and he made the NCAA tournament and damn near made the Sweet 16.

Yes, I truly believe that we made the NCAA tournament in Buzz's first year, and that we only made the NIT in Deane's first year.  BTW, I'm pretty sure Chicos truly believes that as well.

The question is why did you skip over the first season in your comparison of Deane to Buzz?
Never mind.  We know that answer.  Its a lot harder to argue that Crean left the cupboard bare when you  consider James, McNeal and Matthews. 

Because several months ago you said TC left the program in better shape than KO.  My point is that TC left is with 1 year of talent and KO left us with 3 years.  I guess you could say TC planned short term whereas Kevin planned long term.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Because several months ago you said TC left the program in better shape than KO.  My point is that TC left is with 1 year of talent and KO left us with 3 years.  I guess you could say TC planned short term whereas Kevin planned long term.

To be fair, TC left a healthy Otule (isn't TC's fault that he's been hurt twice), healthy Fulce, Tyshawn Taylor (looks great) and Nick Williams (looks like a good player) and Christopherson (looks like he can be a role player).

Now, with the transfers and injuries, Buzz has had to rebuild quickly (which he has done a very good job of).

As far as comparing it to KO, it's not an apples to apples comparison. Crean left a senior loaded team and Buzz has had to build on the fly.

[ChicosBailBonds]

They only wanted to play for TC? Then why didn't they all follow him to Indiana?
In fact, three of the four players who left chose to go somewhere Tom Crean wasn't.

Two of them - Taylor and Williams - asked out of their commitments long before Buzz Williams was named coach. So to suggest that they "didn't want to play for Buzz Williams" is assinine and false.
And BS.
They didn't want to come to Marquette, regardless of who was the coach.

Who knows who they wanted to play for, all we know is they didn't want to play for Buzz.  TT's coach came right out and said it.  It's not false at all, they are HIS WORDS.

As for why they didn't go to IU, well you're a smart guy Pakuni...why don't you answer that?  Could it be that they were on probation?  Hmmmm.

And that's nonsense to say they didn't want to come to Marquette, regardless of who was the coach.  Totally ridiculous on your part.  TT and his coach said because it was Buzz, who they didn't even know, he wasn't coming.  If MU had hired someone else, who knows.  But don't be naive, they didn't want to play for Buzz, they did want to play for TC, that's why they signed with MU.  Do deny that is silly.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Apparently, they didn't want to play for Crean either. Well, NW did before he got run off.

You can't have it both ways PRN, they SIGNED TO PLAY AT MARQUETTE WITH TOM CREAN.  They most certainly wanted to play or him or they wouldn't HAVE SIGNED TO PLAY AT MU WITH HIM AS COACH!!

Did they want to follow him to IU who was going on probation?  Why do you guys ignore this vital piece of information?  Of course they didn't.

Let's put it another way, if TC was still at MU, they would have been playing at MU.  TC left, they didn't want to play for Buzz.  Pretty simple.

Happens all the time, by the way.  The guy that recruited you leaves and you don't want to hang out with the new guy, especially when no one knows a damn thing about the new guy except that he had one year of head coaching experience and a losing record.  Some of these recruits feel they have a shot at the NBA, they aren't going to put their asset (their body and skills) into the hands of someone they don't know.  That's not a knock on Buzz, it's reality.  Until Buzz puts players in the NBA, that's going to be the deal.

They wanted to play for TC at MU.  TC left....they didn't want to play for Buzz at MU.  End of story.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Oh, good God, give me a break. Taylor's decision had almost nothing to do with Buzz. Taylor wanted out from Marquette the second Kansas came calling. The coaching change just provided him with a convenient excuse to bail on his commitment.
As for Nick Williams, labeling him a Big East player may be slightly generous. Maybe a Big East bench player. I don't see him getting a whole lot of minutes on the roster right now, and even less next year with the arrivals of Blue and Jones.

Mbakwe may have helped with his size, but he was a flake whose off-court issues may have been far more trouble than he was worth. For a man who's criticized Buzz over the "type" of players he's recruited, I find it a bit ironic that you're pining for the likes of Mbakwe.

And why no mention of Scott Christopherson? Maybe it's because he's virtually vanished at Iowa State now that they've played some real competition?

SC played 18 minutes yesterday against a Big Ten team.  I didn't realized he vanished....he's playing, wish Erik Williams was.   SC hasn't played less than 15 minutes in ANY game this year.  His coach obviously believes he's worthy enough to play those minutes.  No one, least of all me, stated that SC would be a starter at MU...so let's not go overboard.  I said he was a good, spot up shooter that can stretch defenses and would be a nice change of pace type player.  Considering he's averaging over 21 minutes a game, I have to assume he will continue to get those minutes during the Big 12 conference season.

Nick Williams, he was a top 100 player, whether he would be a bench player in the Big East...we won't know ...now will we.  But I'll take a top 100 player most times.

Where did I say I wanted Mbakwe?  In fact I never have.  I simply stated a fact, he was here, didn't transfer until right before the season started....why, I don't know.   But he was a talented player who unfortunately has a ton of issues, but let's also not pretend that Buzz didn't want him or wasn't very upset when he left (issues or not).

What I challenged was that there were no Big East players or the cupboard was bare.  That's complete bullcrap.  There were players here, but they didn't want to play for Buzz Williams.  That's fine, it happens often.  But the implication is that somehow the previous staff didn't recruit anyone and just left with no one here....not the case, in fact there were some players here but they didn't want to play for the new coach.  That is a fact, why you want to spin it I don't know why.    

[Marquette84]

Because several months ago you said TC left the program in better shape than KO.  My point is that TC left is with 1 year of talent and KO left us with 3 years.  I guess you could say TC planned short term whereas Kevin planned long term.

Of course Crean left MU in better shape than O'Neill did.

--NCAA team vs. NIT team
--An assistant ready to take over (Buzz) vs. starting over with an outside hire (Deane)
--Four starters (all future top 10 scorers) returning vs. two starters returning
--Leaving for one of the handful of national elite NCAA programs of all time vs. leaving for a never-was that had less prestige than even the women's team at the same school
--The Al complete vs. Old Gym with vague promises of future improvements
--Big East Conference affiliation vs. GMC/CUSA
--top 10 attendance that nearly filled the BC 5-6 times year and grew the next season vs. attendance that only filled the BC for Wisconsin & Cincinnati, and fell significantly the next year.

And the biggest one for me:
--Crean hasn't said single negative thing about MU since he left, while O'Neill publicly dissed MU and its fans on his way out of town.

[Pakuni]

Who knows who they wanted to play for, all we know is they didn't want to play for Buzz.  TT's coach came right out and said it.  It's not false at all, they are HIS WORDS. 

Sigh ... let's go over this very slowly, Chico's.
Afternoon of April 1, 2008 ... TC leaves Marquette for Indiana.
Evening of April 1, 2008 ... Tyshawn Taylor asks out of his commitment.
April 9, 2008 ... Marquette announces Buzz Williams as its new head coach.

Taylor asked out of his Marquette commitment eight days before Buzz was named coach, and just hours after Crean left.
Now, knowing these facts are you really going to stand by this notion that the reason Tyshawn Taylor isn't at Marquette is because he didn't want to play for Buzz Williams? Did he somehow know just hours afterwards that Buzz was going to be named the next coach?

And that's nonsense to say they didn't want to come to Marquette, regardless of who was the coach. 

Then why did Taylor ask out of his commitment even before he knew who the coach would be?
Call it nonsense all you like, but the facts are the facts.

As for why they didn't go to IU, well you're a smart guy Pakuni...why don't you answer that?  Could it be that they were on probation?  Hmmmm.

Ummmm .... no. Because I'm a smart enough guy to know Indiana was placed on probation in November 2008, seven months after Taylor and Christopherson chose to go elsewhere, and three months after Mbakwe did. And that probation was devastating .... no loss of postseason play, the loss of one scholarship for one year and a public reprimand. Gasp! A virtual death penalty.

But you're right ... no way Scott Christopherson or Trevor Mbakwe would want to sit out a year at a school that's on probation. I mean, what fun is it sitting on the bench for a team on probation, as opposed to playing in the exciting world of JUCO or sitting on the bench in Ames, Iowa? I mean, sure, Iowa State wasn't much better than Indiana last year, but at least they weren't on probation.
Of course, Nick Williams didn't mind so much. Until he was shown the door, that is.

TT and his coach said because it was Buzz, who they didn't even know, he wasn't coming. 

Please, get your facts straight.
From Tyshawn Taylor Q&A in Zags blog, April 10, 2008:

Q: What kind of relationship do you have with Coach Williams?

A: He recruited me. I had a better relationship with him than with Coach Crean.

"Q: What are you concerned about at Marquette going forward?

A: I want to know how many minutes I would play this year. They have a lot of guards. I know three of them are going to be seniors, Jerel McNeal, Wesley Matthew, and Dominic James. David Cubilllan and Maurice Acker are on the bench. That's five guards.  Nick Williams asked for his released before we knew who the coach was going to be. That's six guards not including me."

But don't be naive, they didn't want to play for Buzz, they did want to play for TC, that's why they signed with MU.  Do deny that is silly.

Yeah, it's naive and silly to deal with facts. Much better to make up stuff about Indiana being on probation when those kids decided not to go there or how Tyshawn Taylor never knew Buzz Williams.

[Pakuni]

SC played 18 minutes yesterday against a Big Ten team.  I didn't realized he vanished....he's playing, wish Erik Williams was.   SC hasn't played less than 15 minutes in ANY game this year.  His coach obviously believes he's worthy enough to play those minutes.  

SC's first six games: 22.8 minutes, 6.7 attempts, 10.2 points
SC's last four games: 19.8 minutes, 2.5 attempts, 4.0 points.

Nope, nothing to see here.

[Marquette84]

Sigh ... let's go over this very slowly, Chico's.
Afternoon of April 1, 2008 ... TC leaves Marquette for Indiana.
Evening of April 1, 2008 ... Tyshawn Taylor asks out of his commitment.
April 9, 2008 ... Marquette announces Buzz Williams as its new head coach.

Taylor asked out of his Marquette commitment eight days before Buzz was named coach, and just hours after Crean left.

Sigh. . . Your memory is faulty, and you're making up "facts" to suit your story.

Bob Hurley said he wanted Taylor to be released from his commitment, but that's not quite the same as Taylor himself asking out of his release.  Here's what Hurley was saying on 4/1:
http://njmg.typepad.com/zagsblog/2008/04/taylor-to-ask-f.html

THE SAME DAY, Taylor himself was telling people that "I want to see what coach they bring in. . . . If a coach comes in and changes the style [of play, that would not be something I'd like]. . . . I want to go to Marquette"
http://northstarbasketball.blogspot.com/2008/04/update-on-tyshawn-taylor.html


We all know what was going on. Taylor still wanted to come to MU, but Hurley didn't want him to play for Buzz, and was pulling a power play to force his way. 

Still, Williams went to meet with Taylor on 4/10.  Contrary to your faux "fact" that Taylor requested his release on 4/1, he had still not officially requested his release.  

Prior to the meeting, Taylor indicated that he was still considering Marquette: "at the same time, I might end up back at Marquette." Taylor informed me that the schools he is considering are "Georgia Tech, Tennessee, Kansas, Florida, . . . and Marquette, of course."  
http://northstarbasketball.blogspot.com/2008/04/update-on-bob-hurley-sr-tyshawn-taylor.html


And if you don't like the quotes from Taylor, perhaps you'll accept Buzz Williams word:
http://blogs.jsonline.com/muhoops/archive/tags/Tyshawn+Taylor/default.aspx

"Ty called me all the time, his mom called me all the time, his stepdad called me all the time. I don't know exactly how many days he was released prior to making a decision to go to Kansas, but I was the first person in his life other than his mom to know he was going to Kansas. . . .. So whether or not we were strongly considered, if you gauge it in relation to how many times they called me, maybe. But I don't know."

Boy, that doesn't sound like the actions of a guy who cut all ties to MU on 4/1, does it.

As of April 16th, he still had not requested his release, but was expected to (and ultimately did) request his release.
http://blogs.jsonline.com/muhoops/archive/2008/04/16/mbakwe-staying-taylor-update.aspx

So the correct timeline:

4/1:  Crean leaves Marquette.
4/1:  Hurley tries to insert himself into the situation, but Taylor doesn't request a release.
4/8:  Buzz named as replacement
4/9:  Taylor is quoted as saying Marquette "of course" is still under consideration.
4/10:  Buzz goes to meet with Taylor
4/16:  Taylor formally requests his release eight days AFTER Buzz is named head coach.
4/16-28:  Taylor actively recruited by Buzz--Taylor calls Buzz "all the time." during this period.
4/28:  Taylor commits to KU--Buzz is first person other than his mom to be told of the decision.

Now, if Taylor had truly told Buzz on 4/1 that he wasn't coming to MU, why in the world would Taylor be talking to Buzz "all the time", and call Buzz first to tell him that he's going to KU?

Now, knowing these facts--including quotes from Tyshawn Taylor and Buzz Williams themselves--are you really going to dispute the notion that Buzz did not actively attempt to land Taylor, and that Taylor had no interest in MU after 4/1?

Ummmm .... no. Because I'm a smart enough guy to know Indiana was placed on probation in November 2008, seven months after Taylor and Christopherson chose to go elsewhere, and three months after Mbakwe did. And that probation was devastating .... no loss of postseason play, the loss of one scholarship for one year and a public reprimand. Gasp! A virtual death penalty.

But you're right ... no way Scott Christopherson or Trevor Mbakwe would want to sit out a year at a school that's on probation. I mean, what fun is it sitting on the bench for a team on probation, as opposed to playing in the exciting world of JUCO or sitting on the bench in Ames, Iowa? I mean, sure, Iowa State wasn't much better than Indiana last year, but at least they weren't on probation.

I think I can shed light on this one as well.  While you attempt to belittle Chicos for raising the spectre of IU sanctions, it is EXACTLY the reason Bob Hurley gave as to why Taylor would not follow Crean to IU:

"Coach Hurley was saying about Taylor and his recruitment, the living legend in the hoops world said that he has "only met the [new] head coach [Buzz Williams] one time," and informing me upon my inquiry about the subject that Taylor won't be following Crean to Indiana due to the possible "NCAA sanctions" that the Hoosiers could be handed."
http://northstarbasketball.blogspot.com/2008/04/update-on-bob-hurley-sr-tyshawn-taylor.html


The fact of the matter is that nobody--not you, not Crean, not any of the recruits--knew in April how serious the sanctions that would follow in November.   So it is certainly not implausible that recruits would not follow Crean to IU during the six months before those sanctions were to be handed down.

[Murffieus]

even my Badger friends said "you will be a lot better when Acker and Cubillian are replaced with Blue and Cadougan"....

Probably a 3 guard offense (Cadougan, DJO, and Blue)----and Butler with Maymon or Fulce.

Small Ball !

[Pakuni]

Sigh. . . Your memory is faulty, and you're making up "facts" to suit your story.

Bob Hurley said he wanted Taylor to be released from his commitment, but that's not quite the same as Taylor himself asking out of his release.  Here's what Hurley was saying on 4/1:
http://njmg.typepad.com/zagsblog/2008/04/taylor-to-ask-f.html

THE SAME DAY, Taylor himself was telling people that "I want to see what coach they bring in. . . . If a coach comes in and changes the style [of play, that would not be something I'd like]. . . . I want to go to Marquette"
http://northstarbasketball.blogspot.com/2008/04/update-on-tyshawn-taylor.html

Hmmm .... well, you better tell Todd Rosiak he's got his facts wrong. And apparently he doesn't know how to properly quote someone:

"Spoke with both Tyshawn Taylor and his coach at St. Anthony, the legendary Bob Hurley, and both said in no uncertain terms on Wednesday morning that Taylor is seeking to be released by MU."


And, from that same article, just to dispel the notion Taylor didn't come to MU because of Buzz:

As far as Taylor, he said it likely would take Williams remaining on the staff in some capacity to come to MU.

"I think the only way I end up at Marquette is if Coach Williams gets the head-coaching job, or if Coach Williams and another one of the assistants is still there," he said. "Coach Williams recruited me and I really want to play for him. I think that's probably the only way."

http://blogs.jsonline.com/muhoops/archive/2008/04/02/taylor-wants-out.aspx

[GGGG]

Hmmm .... well, you better tell Todd Rosiak he's got his facts wrong. And apparently he doesn't know how to properly quote someone:

"Spoke with both Tyshawn Taylor and his coach at St. Anthony, the legendary Bob Hurley, and both said in no uncertain terms on Wednesday morning that Taylor is seeking to be released by MU."


And, from that same article, just to dispel the notion Taylor didn't come to MU because of Buzz:

As far as Taylor, he said it likely would take Williams remaining on the staff in some capacity to come to MU.

"I think the only way I end up at Marquette is if Coach Williams gets the head-coaching job, or if Coach Williams and another one of the assistants is still there," he said. "Coach Williams recruited me and I really want to play for him. I think that's probably the only way."

http://blogs.jsonline.com/muhoops/archive/2008/04/02/taylor-wants-out.aspx

But later on Hurley says this:

"Hurley has been outspoken about the situation from the outset, stating that Taylor signed to play for Tom Crean, that he is concerned about Buzz Williams' lack of head-coaching experience and also the number of guards expected to return to the Golden Eagles next season."

http://blogs.jsonline.com/muhoops/archive/2008/04/16/update-on-taylor-mu.aspx

My opinion is that this was clearly engineered by Hurley.  Whether or not he did it for his own interests or truly had Taylor's in mind I don't know.  But I think it is clear that Taylor liked Buzz...but Hurley was skeptical.

[musarah]

Can we stop waiting on next year already.  These are our warriors, we could have won today despite the slow start.

I agree. Although some of the refs calls were debatable, we missed plenty of free throws and didn't even get shots up on some of the possessions.

[MR.HAYWARD]

so chicos you are still refusing to answer the questions I posed?

[warthog-driver]

didn't even get shots up on some of the possessions.

Between the porous defense and empty possessions we were doomed

[Marquette84]

Hmmm .... well, you better tell Todd Rosiak he's got his facts wrong. And apparently he doesn't know how to properly quote someone:

"Spoke with both Tyshawn Taylor and his coach at St. Anthony, the legendary Bob Hurley, and both said in no uncertain terms on Wednesday morning that Taylor is seeking to be released by MU."

We know based on the facts available that Taylor did not request his release was not filed until 4/16.

It was not filed the evening of 4/1/08 as you claim.

The difference is Rosiak on 4/2/08 did not know the facts in a fluid & changing situation, and was reporting based on a lot of 'heat of the moment' conversation with a coach and player still in shock.  No matter what they said on 4/2, the request was not offically submitted by Taylor until 4/16.  

Now, Hurley tried to force the issue and submit the paperwork himself--but he cannot do that--the request has to come from the player and signed by a parent.

The sad part is that On 12/14/09, you did know what actually happened, and chose to misrepresent the situation.

Simply put, you were wrong when you said Taylor asked to be released on the evening of 4/1.  Perhaps in the heat of the moment he told a reporter that he would.  But the truth is that he did not do so until 4/16.  

[Golden Avalanche]

We all know what was going on. Taylor still wanted to come to MU, but Hurley didn't want him to play for Buzz, and was pulling a power play to force his way. 

Actually, this is not true. Anyone here in Jersey knows that Kansas was always Taylor's school of choice. During recruiting, KU only sniffed, never offered, because they were stacked until a perfect chain of events occurred with them winning the title and all their guards leaving as well as Crean leaving for Indiana.

Once the second shoe dropped with Crean, Taylor was always going to go to Kansas no matter who the new coach was at Marquette whether it be Buzz, Bob McKillop, Brad Brownell, God, Muhammad, or Moses.