Retiring Additional Jersey's

[WashDCWarrior]

If I missed anyone, please note.  Current players not eligible.

[WashDCWarrior]

Just noticed that it didn't calculate percentages the way I intended.

Anybody know how to make the percentage for each choice based on the number of positive votes divided by the number of voters?

Right now it has all the choices total 100%.

[bartmiller#1]

None of the above.

I think that a number should only be retired for the rarest of players. 

None of those guys makes the mark, in my opinion.  I would look for someone who has fantastic individual accomplishments and is the main cog in pushing the team to great success.  I don't think it's a slight to not have your number retired.  Guys who were great players are on that list-- but, I don't think any should be retired. 

The closest is probably Diener.

Crawford/Wardle/Hutchins/Novak etc. were all good ballplayers, but they shouldn't even be a part of this conversation.

[WashDCWarrior]

Right now, Diener is gettin the nod from 75% (15 of 20) so you're obviously not the only one who thinks he should not have his jersey retired.  Given that, I think he has a really strong case.

He played four years at Marquette and graduated, whereas Wade only played 2 (on the team for 3) and hasn't graduated.
He was easily the best player on the team in the final two.
He played an integral part in the final four run, especially Holy Cross and Mizzou where we wouldn't have won without him.
He is top five in a handful of all-time Marquette stats, and had a really good shot of being the all-time leading scorer, had he not been injured.
He is in his second year in the NBA and is proving he can be a solid player at that level.
He led C-USA in both scoring and assists.
He always played tough, worked hard, and was a team leader.

I'm not sure what else a player needs to do.  He is more qualified to have his jersey retired than some players who already do.

[MarquetteVol]

Bart,
With your criteria in mind, are there any numbers that MU has already retired that you feel they shouldn't have?

I think Diener is a no-brainer, and fits your list of requirements:

Fantastic Individual Accomplishments:
1. Two All-Conference USA First Team selections.
2. Finished as career leader in three-point field goals made (284), second in assists (617), third in scoring (1,691 points).
3. First player in C-USA history to lead the league in both scoring and assists.

Main cog in pushing the team to great success:
Well, if it wasn't for Diener we never would survived the first round of the tourney in 2003. That performance against Holy Cross was unbelievable. Or, how about his phenomenal game against UW his senior year?

I think it's a lot to say that only the main cog on a great team should have his number retired. Should both Hinrich and Collison have numbers retired at Kansas? Absolutely. Or, what about Jordan and Worthy at UNC? Or, Augmon, LJ, and Greg Anthony at UNLV? Great teams have several great cogs, and to me it was Diener and Wade in 03. Jackson would be under consideration if he had spent more than a season here, but he didn't.

As for the rest of the list, I tend to agree with you. But, many of those guys came before my era. Wardle, Novak, Hutch, and Crawford just don't quite make the grade.

[Chili]

To add on to what I think criteria should be is at minimum an All American, something Travis never was. The closest he got was honorable mention. I really think you need to be a very special player to get your number retired. I do think Travis was a great player, but I would not call him a very special player.

[bartmiller#1]

Let me temper all of this by saying that I loved Diener's moxy and his heart.  I thought he was a great college basketball player, but not someone who should have his number retired.  That is not taking anything away from his storied career.   

As Chili mentioned, Diener was never an All-American.

He played well on the '03 team, but I would say he was the 3rd man on that team-- again, that's not a slight on a team that featured a 5th year senior in Rob Jackson and Wade. 

On his own, Diener did not lead our team to the NCAA tournament.  That would be his biggest shortcoming, in my opinion.  Team success as the leader of the team would be the #1 factor in my book. 

I guess my point isn't to try to point out why TD doesn't deserve it as much as it is to say that only the rarest of players should have their numbers retired. 

Just my personal opinion on all of this.  I think that NBA success should have nothing to do with this-- that should only matter if it's a marketing question-- and I think it's about more than that. 

In my opinion, Diener had a great career and should be remembered as one of the finest players at MU-- but, it's my opinion that he isn't in that top-most tier of the very rarest (only 9) players who merit having their jersey retired. 

[WashDCWarrior]

The following is a list of players who made at least honorable mention All-American, per the media guide in reverse chronilogical order.  They include a number of different All-American awards, so some players won and were named in a number and some were Honorable Mention for just one.  Given the different time periods, it's difficult to tell details.  I didn't go earlier than Don Kojis.

Travis Diener
Dwyane Wade
Jim McIlvaine
Roney Eford
Tony Miller
Tony Smith
Doc Rivers
Sam Worthen
Jerome Whitehead
Butch Lee
Earl Tatem
Lloyd Walton
Bo Ellis
Maurice Lucas
Bob Lackey
Jim Chones
Dean Meminger
George Thompson
Don Kojis

I don't think this list should be used to determine if a jersey gets retired.  I think Marquette should decide who to retire, not the national media, sportswriters, etc.

I would like to see a formal process in place (I don't know of one now) for voting on if a player is inducted or not similar to MLB HOF voting.  A board of people close to the basketball program voting and needing a 2/3 or 3/4 majority, where the player (or coach) becomes eligible 4 or 5 years after leaving and has a 10-year window to get the vote.

[WashDCWarrior]

If MUScoop were "the board" only Diener would be getting his jersey retired  right now. (76.5% (26 of 34)) Who knows though, in a couple of years that might go up, might go down depending on (whether we like it or not) how he does in the NBA, his reputation, how current MU players do compared to him, etc.

[bartmiller#1]

I don't think the retirement of numbers should be a democratic process. 

Certainly not anything resembling the MLB HOF.  That's a joke of a process. 

The list of All-Americans above includes every stripe of All American imaginable.  I think Roney Eford was something like a NABC Region 5 Sophomore All American Honorable Mention.  I am (slightly) exaggerating, but my point is that the list includes all types of "all americans" who we don't think of when we refer to an "All American."  I'm talking about a Naismith or equivalent All American.  Basically one of the top 10-20 players in the country. 

Again, I liked guys like Eford, but he's not sniffing that territory. 

[bma725]

The list of All-Americans above includes every stripe of All American imaginable.  I think Roney Eford was something like a NABC Region 5 Sophomore All American Honorable Mention.  I am (slightly) exaggerating, but my point is that the list includes all types of "all americans" who we don't think of when we refer to an "All American."  I'm talking about a Naismith or equivalent All American.  Basically one of the top 10-20 players in the country. 

That leaves basically two guys, and they're both long deceased, Dave Quabius and Ed Mullen.  Mullen was MU's first All-American in 1933 and Quabias the second in 1938.  Both played in the NBL, one of the two leagues that merged to form the NBA, Mullen is even in the MU Hall of Fame.

Both were Chuck Taylor Converse All-American's.  That may sound bad, but at the time it was the most prestigious of all the All-American awards, Chuck Taylor used to select the players that made the team himself.  It was as big of a deal at the time as the AP is now.  If anyone is deserving of having a number retired its one or both of them.

Beyond that, Tony Smith probably comes the closest to your definition, having been both a Sporting News and UPI All-American. 

[bartmiller#1]

I don't know about that:  Wade was a first team All-American in '03.  I think the AP's team cuts the mustard. 

The blurb below is taken from Wade's bio on the USA Basketball website.  I didn't look it up, but I'd venture a guess that the '78 All American referenced was Butch Lee.  That's the type of player I am talking about. 

"Tabbed a unanimous 2003 All-American, including The Associated Press All-American First Team, becoming Marquette's first first team All-American since 1978."

[ChicosBailBonds]

I don't know about that:  Wade was a first team All-American in '03.  I think the AP's team cuts the mustard. 

The blurb below is taken from Wade's bio on the USA Basketball website.  I didn't look it up, but I'd venture a guess that the '78 All American referenced was Butch Lee.  That's the type of player I am talking about. 

"Tabbed a unanimous 2003 All-American, including The Associated Press All-American First Team, becoming Marquette's first first team All-American since 1978."

I voted for Diener and Miller and that's it.  Miller, to me, was as important a player for MU as any in the last 25 years.  That kid along with O'Neill might have saved the program to some extent.  We were teetering on Loyola / Dayton / SLU status there and this kid played with such guts for 4 years.  Two years in the NCAAs, and still the only player in NCAA history to have all those points, assists, rebounds and steals at the level he finished at.

Diener is a lock as far as I'm concerned.  Just a matter of when.

Tony Smith, who I went to school with, was a phenomenal player but our teams were so bad back then that I don't think he rose enough to the level to grant consideration.  MacIlvaine had the reverse...played on good teams and was an important part, but I would not rank him as jersey retirement material...at least not yet.  Down the road perhaps.

No slight at all meant toward Smith or Jimmy Mac, two very very fine players at MU.  Jersey retirement should be a big deal and we have been very fortunate to have some tremendous basketball players play for Marquette over the years.

[bma725]

I don't know about that:  Wade was a first team All-American in '03.  I think the AP's team cuts the mustard. 

The blurb below is taken from Wade's bio on the USA Basketball website.  I didn't look it up, but I'd venture a guess that the '78 All American referenced was Butch Lee.  That's the type of player I am talking about. 

"Tabbed a unanimous 2003 All-American, including The Associated Press All-American First Team, becoming Marquette's first first team All-American since 1978."

I was talking about guys who haven't yet had their number retired. 

[bartmiller#1]

Got you.

That makes sense-- and I would stand by that as the standard. 

[spiral97]

In timely fashion.. just saw this in the yahoo news feed above...

Diener's No. 34 could hang from Bradley Center rafters

By Ryan Nilsson
Special to The Reporter

MILWAUKEE — There are photos of No. 34 everywhere inside the Al McGuire Center on the campus of Marquette University.

A young No. 34 can be seen dribbling the ball across half court against Cincinnati in the large photo montage in the building's lobby. Just inside the entrance to the building's arena there's a framed photo of No. 34 to commemorate his selection to the Conference USA all-decade team. Former Marquette teammate Dwyane Wade is also in the image.

About the only place you won't find Fond du Lac native Travis Diener's No. 34 is on the banner recognizing basketball players whose jersey number has been retired by the school. But in time, No. 34 will join Wade's No. 3 there.

"Coach (Tom Crean) is pretty adamant that it will happen some day," said Diener, who was back in Milwaukee on Tuesday night as a member of the Orlando Magic. "But that's not something that is on the top of my mind. That's not why I play the game. If that comes later on that would be an honor."

Crean declined to comment for this story. According to Mike Broeker, the associate athletic director for marketing and communications at Marquette, the school has three criteria when considering whether or not to retire an athlete's number — the individual's contribution to society, academic success and athletic accomplishments at Marquette.

Diener graduated from Marquette's College of Communication in 2005 and last August hosted his first basketball camp in Milwaukee at the Al McGuire Center.

"I just try to give back however I can," Diener said.

While a student-athlete at Marquette, Diener averaged 14.1 points and 5.1 assists per game and finished as the school's third all-time scorer with 1,691 points. Various injuries limited his senior season to 23 games. Had Diener been healthy, chances are he would have left as the school's all-time leading scorer.

As a sophomore he helped lead Marquette to the Final Four and in his final season he was named Associated Press all-America honorable mention. According to Broeker, once the basketball program and athletic director decide to retire a number, it then must be approved by the university's senior vice president.

"Travis' career speaks for itself," Broeker said.

Marquette retired Wade's No. 3 on Saturday. Other numbers retired include: No. 14 (Dean Meminger), No. 15 (Butch Lee), No. 20 (Maurice Lucas), No. 24 (George Thompson), No. 31 (Bo Ellis and Glenn "Doc" Rivers), No. 43 (Earl Tatum), No. 44 (Don Kojis). Marquette also retired No. 77 in honor of coach Al McGuire, No. 38 in honor of trainer Bob Weingart and No. 11 in honor of the Apollo 11 crew.