Uh oh.....this is so not good....

[groove]

Just curious, if anyone out there would know. What percentage of Marquette students are JUCO transfers?

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

And yet Wisconsin-Madison has had just as many problems with their non-JUCO recruits(they just kicked 2 players off of their team) as we have with ours.  Its not a JUCO problem.  Each individual and situation is different.  

Agree 10000%.

It know people are trying to apply broad rules or guidelines like "don't take jucos" or "only take 1" etc. etc.

It's not necessarily that a kid comes from a JUCO, it's if he's a good kid or not that should be a factor in his recruiting.

[reinko]

Bingo 77!  This is not a JUCO issue, it is Montreale Clark, and that poor girl issue.

Doing poorly in a few classes in HS will not make you more likely to rape a girl, drive drunk or beat someone up.

If I was DJO, Jimmy Butler or any other decent kid that went JUCO, I would be appalled at what I was reading.  To those painting JUCOs as more likely to committ should be of yourselves. 

Thanks a-holes, hope that ivory tower y'all are sitting in has a nice view.

[bma725]

Based on Scout's database going back to 2002:

UCLA has not had a JUCO under Howland or Lavin.
Arizona has not had a JUCO under Olson, O'Neill, or Miller.
Georgetown has not had a JUCO under Esherick or JT3.
Vanderbilt has not had a JUCO.
Florida has not had a JUCO.
Villanova has not had a JUCO.

That's just off the top of my head, there's a bunch more out there, and that's not even factoring in the academically elite schools which don't allow the schools to get JUCO players. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

Sigh ... the criteria was rather simple and stated in plain English. Name some of the many programs that do not recruit JUCOs. Not the ones that only get occasional commitments from JUCOs. Not the ones that recruit the JUCOs infrequently (whatever your definition of infrequently may be). The ones that do not recruit JUCOs. I'm sure there are a handful, particularly in the Ivy and Patriot leagues.
But I very much doubt there are many, particularly relative to the total number of D-I programs. 

Well since it would be impossible for any of us to know who schools are actually recruiting since they aren't allowed to publicly comment, it's a moot point.

Let's do it this way, shall we.   Let's look at rosters and see how many JUCOs are on those rosters vs what we have.  In other words, where the rubber hits the road and schools actually have guys on the roster.

Marquette = 4 (with more on the way)
UCLA = 0 right now
Duke = 0
UW-Madison = 0
North Carolina = 0
Villanova = 0
Stanford = 0
Cal = 1

I got bored when after looking at the first 7 schools above I found a grand total of 1.  My guess is if you go through Louisville, Cincinnati and their ilk, you find a lot.  My guess is also if you go through most of the Big Ten you won't find many. 

And MUSF is correct, no one ever said we shouldn't recruit or sign JUCOs.  But there is a reason there is a stigma, it didn't materialize out of thin air.

[drewm88]

There are quality people who are JUCOs and bad people who are JUCOs. The same goes for d-1 transfer students, prep schoolers, and high schoolers. Don't generalize this and throw the blame on all JUCOs.

This is one kid who committed an unspeakable act. One kid.

[Chili]

Clark was a bad kid in HS who had issues going back to problems at MPS and Pius. He wasn't just an academic JUCO, but was there because he got kicked out schools for multiple behavior problems. He should have never been offered a scholarship.

[77ncaachamps]

I think people need to look at Prep school products almost like JUCOs.

I mean...Prep school kids (since they can't even get a HS degree or similar) can't even get into a JUCO!

And if Prep schools weren't around, where would they be?!? Maybe in a JUCO or not.

But the key word is ALMOST.

I mean, if you can't pass HS in a 4 year situation, there are probably problems...possibly of the behavior-like.

[ChicosBailBonds]

There are quality people who are JUCOs and bad people who are JUCOs. The same goes for d-1 transfer students, prep schoolers, and high schoolers. Don't generalize this and throw the blame on all JUCOs.

This is one kid who committed an unspeakable act. One kid.

Of course that's the case and I don't think anyone is saying otherwise.

No one is saying it's MU's fault this clown did this either.

No one is saying don't recruit JUCOs.


What some people are saying is that whether we like to admit it or not, there seems (perception now) to be more problems with JUCO players as a percentage than 4 year guys.  Maybe that's completely wrong, I'm only going on perception over the years.  Perhaps that perception is also further entrenched because the top top programs don't sign JUCO's very often (if at all) and there are rarely problems with their kids with this type of issue. 

Sure there are bad eggs everywhere....prep schools, 4 year high schools, JUCOs, etc....that's just a fact of life.  I'd like to see us take FEWER JUCOs for the reasons stated earlier

1) they are in the program 4 years = continuity
2) they are ready out of high school academically to handle college (vs those JUCOs that don't qualify out of high school)
3) maturity

Again, I'm not talking about those that are fully qualified out of school but chose to improve their prospects by going a year to a JUCO.  Hell, many kids in Wisconsin and California go to a JUCO because UW-Madison and UCLA literally guarantee you a spot transferring in as a normal student your sophomore or junior year.  However, if we are going to load up on JUCO kids we better be ready to take the heat when they fail for things off the court, because the public opinion argument is against us.  That is reality.

[MUSF]

OK, that's fair. You just named two. Out of 343 programs.
Does that qualify as "many"?

As for the rest of your post, I disregarded it because it had nothing to do with what I was asking. A post stated that many programs do not recruit the JUCO ranks. A second agreed. I asked them to list some of those many programs. It seemed like a simple request at the time, but perhaps it was more complex than I thought.

That said, regarding what you said, I agree ... to an extent. But I think you're making a false assumption that JUCO players are more predisposed to commiting acts that would reflect poorly on the program/university. What's the basis for said assumption?

I am in not assuming that JUCO players are more pre-disposed to commiting acts that would reflect poorly on MU.  I am using the fact that a player attended a junior college instead of a D1 program as an indicator of a potential problem.  Not doing that would be irresponsible on Buzz's part and I am sure that he takes it into consideration.  I am simply saying that I think he should take it a step further and put a limit on the number of JUCOs he brings in.  

[77ncaachamps]

I am in not assuming that JUCO players are more pre-disposed to commiting acts that would reflect poorly on MU.  I am using the fact that a player attended a junior college instead of a D1 program as an indicator of a potential problem.  Not doing that would be irresponsible on Buzz's part and I am sure that he takes it into consideration.  I am simply saying that I think he should take it a step further and put a limit on the number of JUCOs he brings in.  

What about Prep schoolers?

[MUSF]

Bingo 77!  This is not a JUCO issue, it is Montreale Clark, and that poor girl issue.

Doing poorly in a few classes in HS will not make you more likely to rape a girl, drive drunk or beat someone up.

If I was DJO, Jimmy Butler or any other decent kid that went JUCO, I would be appalled at what I was reading.  To those painting JUCOs as more likely to committ should be of yourselves. 

Thanks a-holes, hope that ivory tower y'all are sitting in has a nice view.

STRAW MAN!

Does my MU degree hold the same prestige as a degree from Harvard?  No. 

Does that mean that I am not as intelligent or capable as someone with a degree from Harvard?  No but our degrees are indicators of future performance and are considered by employers for good reason.

[SWARM!]

Chicos, do you have to hijack every freaking thread with your hidden agendas and your holier-than-thou lectures?  I am a frequent observer on this website and greatly appreciate the MU discussions that take place on this board.  You're obviously a frequent contributor and well-spoken individual, but your endless tangents and pompous attitude are really getting old.  On top of that, they are extremely distracting.  If you want to turn every single thread into a political and socioeconomical debate, I guess you won't be denied.  But this is about ONE MU target that made a horrible decision and will be sentenced accordingly.  I don't have any interest in your soap box lectures and I-told-you-so's about the risks and negative stigmas that come with recruiting JUCOs.  

Buzz made a big mistake with this kid.  It wasn't all his fault, but he screwed it up.  To turn this into a condescending debate about how Marquette's image is being tarnished NOT because of the actions of a lousy individual, but because we continue to recruit junior college players, is just the typical trash I'm become so accustomed to from you.  Give it a freaking rest.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Chicos, do you have to hijack every freaking thread with your hidden agendas and your holier-than-thou lectures?  I am a frequent observer on this website and greatly appreciate the MU discussions that take place on this board.  You're obviously a frequent contributor and well-spoken individual, but your endless tangents and pompous attitude are really getting old.  On top of that, they are extremely distracting.  If you want to turn every single thread into a political and socioeconomical debate, I guess you won't be denied.  But this is about ONE MU target that made a horrible decision and will be sentenced accordingly.  I don't have any interest in your soap box lectures and I-told-you-so's about the risks and negative stigmas that come with recruiting JUCOs.  

Buzz made a big mistake with this kid.  It wasn't all his fault, but he screwed it up.  To turn this into a condescending debate about how Marquette's image is being tarnished NOT because of the actions of a lousy individual, but because we continue to recruit junior college players, is just the typical trash I'm become so accustomed to from you.  Give it a freaking rest.

I'm sorry, was I the one that brought up JUCOs first?

Uhm, no.  Knight Commission was

I'm sorry, was I the second one that brought JUCOs?

Uhm, no.  Shaqilvaine was.

I'm sorry, was I the third person to bring up JUCOs?

Uhm, no.

I'm sorry, was I the 4th person to bring up JUCOs?

Uhm, no...PRN was.

I'm sorry, was I the 5th person to bring it up....no.

I'm sorry, was I the 6th person to bring it up....no (Daniel was)


Yes, by golly, I hijacked this thread by being the 7th person to bring it up...in the 35th reply to this thread   

Please, get a clue.  Come down on me all you want, I don't particularly give a rip.  But at least get your facts straight, I by no means hijacked this thread nor did I even come close to being the one to introduce the JUCO angle.  Get some facts.

[SWARM!]

Here's a fact: you're obsessed with getting the last word and being the supposed voice of reason.  Please, you don't have to be the first to the party to hijack the thread.  If you want, go ahead and replace "hijack" with "spew sanctimonious crap."  You made your position clear and clearly tried to provoke people with useless comments.  I'm tired of so many threads ending up like that.

"Careful, people will start screaming at you and starting threads in the members only section of the Scout board for saying things like that."

"You are clearly a hater and must think Buzz is an alcoholic based on those comments.
- Sincerely, Warriorfan4life"

"Buzz loves those JUCOs, that's where he cut his teeth. I hope that we're not on the constant JUCO influx every year but I have my serious doubts."

'sigh,' insert rolling eyes smiley face...

I'm just really tired of listening to you but I won't bring it up again.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Use the ignore button, it's really simple. 

[thatman32]

Use the ignore button, it's really simple. 

Why should he use the ignore button?  Heres an idea don't post Sh*t like you usually do!

[Ellenson Guerrero]

As terrible as this sort of thing is I can't say I was shocked when I heard. If you've ever seen one of this kids Facebook videos you could tell he was a low character individual: "F*** this", "N****** that". I understand Buzz wants to bring in the best talent possible, but you can't just overlook fairly obvious character flaws. And this isn't about JUCO's or High Schoolers. You can tell in watching a youtube video of Clark compared with a video of DJO and be able to discern which one is gonna be causing trouble. Buzz needs to take the blinders off a little bit and start adding character to his recruiting checklist.

[ChicosBailBonds]

As terrible as this sort of thing is I can't say I was shocked when I heard. If you've ever seen one of this kids Facebook videos you could tell he was a low character individual: "F*** this", "N****** that". I understand Buzz wants to bring in the best talent possible, but you can't just overlook fairly obvious character flaws. And this isn't about JUCO's or High Schoolers. You can tell in watching a youtube video of Clark compared with a video of DJO and be able to discern which one is gonna be causing trouble. Buzz needs to take the blinders off a little bit and start adding character to his recruiting checklist.

+1  .... though there are some other videos of some of the other guys on our squad that just make me shake my head as well.  I cringe at the N word, I don't care who is saying it and whether it's culturally acceptable or not.  When I hear it from some of our players it just saddens me.  Call me an old prude, but I don't like it, even if it's "acceptable" to some.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Why should he use the ignore button?  Heres an idea don't post Sh*t like you usually do!

If I usually post Sh*t, then you should know it's coming and there is no reason to read it.  Or are you just one of those people that are attracted like the siren song or the bug to the electric light?


Look, I like Buzz, think he works his ass off.  I hope like hell he succeeds because I don't want to go through another down era.  If he does fail, then it benefits NO ONE. 

But I love MU just as much and do not like seeing the school's name pulled through the mud.  I don't know why people have a hard time understanding this.  Recruit quality people and quality things will happen.  Don't do that and you put the school, the program, the coach, etc into a potential bad light. 

[reinko]

MUSF,
I see no straw man in my arguement.  I honestly took your arguement as "limit the # of JUCOs, because they have raised red flags, and may cause problems". This is correct right?

Now, I have no issue with giving Buzz and his team some crap for not vetting someone, but I think you are you are  painting all JUCOs as having a greater chance of effing up (even though you stated you didn't in another thread). 

Just by saying, limit the # of JUCOs...you are, IMHO being harsh.

We all agree we want upstanding young men representing MU in a positive way, but bad apples appear in every demographic. 

I just have an issue with grouping people based on piece of there background and making a sweeping generalization because of it.

Across the college ranks you see an ungodly amount of athletes that are full qualifiers get in a lot of trouble, but when you see kid that has to go to community college too many people automatically jump to the conclusion "well, he went JUCO, ya know, big surprise". And I personally think that is grossly unfair.

In full disclosure, I work with kids that go to community college because they for a variety of reasons couldn't get into a 4 year school.  I believe in holding people personally responsible for their actions (as I am sure you are too), but I guess we just disagree in how Marquette makes sure we don't recruit jags like Clark.  I apologize for my earlier accusatory remarks, I know we all agree that we  want young men to represent our great university in a positive manner on and off the court.

Go Marquette!

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

If RichardShaw isn't that bizarre, unstable UncleJohn I'll eat my hat.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

MUSF,
I see no straw man in my arguement.  I honestly took your arguement as "limit the # of JUCOs, because they have raised red flags, and may cause problems". This is correct right?

Now, I have no issue with giving Buzz and his team some crap for not vetting someone, but I think you are you are  painting all JUCOs as having a greater chance of effing up (even though you stated you didn't in another thread). 

Just by saying, limit the # of JUCOs...you are, IMHO being harsh.

We all agree we want upstanding young men representing MU in a positive way, but bad apples appear in every demographic. 

I just have an issue with grouping people based on piece of there background and making a sweeping generalization because of it.

Across the college ranks you see an ungodly amount of athletes that are full qualifiers get in a lot of trouble, but when you see kid that has to go to community college too many people automatically jump to the conclusion "well, he went JUCO, ya know, big surprise". And I personally think that is grossly unfair.

In full disclosure, I work with kids that go to community college because they for a variety of reasons couldn't get into a 4 year school.  I believe in holding people personally responsible for their actions (as I am sure you are too), but I guess we just disagree in how Marquette makes sure we don't recruit jags like Clark.  I apologize for my earlier accusatory remarks, I know we all agree that we  want young men to represent our great university in a positive manner on and off the court.

Go Marquette!

Well said.

If you try to make a rule like "only 2 JUCOS because they have a higher chance on messing up", then why don't they make a rule like "Only 2 kids from public high schools because private school kids have a better chance of being successful and are less risky".

I realize that Universities have to limit risk, but making broad policies and/or rules isn't going to solve everything. We're dealing with people (particularly young people). Mistakes are going to happen.

Buzz and his staff have to do a good job creating a culture that breeds success (on and off the court), and recruit good people who are great at basketball.

Looks like Buzz has missed on this one. I'm certainly not going to give Buzz a free pass, but I'm not going to condemn all JUCO players because of this. Admit it, all of you guys were loving Jimmy Butler last year, but suddenly MU should limit JUCO's because of Clark?

Please.

[TJ]

This thread (the first page of it at least - maybe more info came out since then) was very disturbing.  Did we learn nothing from the Duke Lacrosse case?  Based on one article, people assuming Clark is guilty of a charge that has in no way been proven yet and going out of their way to call him a monster.

Someone's life was severely changed for the worse in this case.  Likely it's the female and it's a horrible thing and we all feel terrible for her.  But until it's known for sure, why is everyone so quick to ruin his life?  He'll lose his scholarship, and he also has to deal with being vilified for the rest of his life, regardless of his innocence or guilt.

[Tigidal]

Just my 2 cents... I have no issue with having JUCOs in our program, as long as it contributes to winning.  This is def an unfortunate incident, however it's more a reflection on the player than on the university.  MU will cut its ties and move on, with most people forgetting and more likely being completely unaware of the situation.  When a team makes it to the Final Four, you never hear Clark Kellogg say, "Yeah, they're good but they've really been recruiting some thugs lately."  However you do see an increase in enrollment, donations, and all the good things that go along with success.