Kentucky's 2009 Class is NOT #1

[77ncaachamps]

Hoop Scoop: UK class not No. 1

Most analysts had the University of Kentucky men's basketball recruiting class tabbed as the No. 1 after the haul the Wildcats landed thanks to coach John Calipari's arrival, but not the Hoop Scoop. The Louisville-based scouting service has UK's class ranked No. 2 behind Marquette, which has seven players in the class. Five of the players in the Marquette class are ranked between Nos. 11 and 40 by Hoop Scoop, while it has two top 10 players. North Carolina is No. 3, followed by Oklahoma State and Villanova. Louisville is No. 29.

The Hoop Scoop also released its final ranking of the top 1,000 players in the Class of 2009, but this listing doesn't include fifth-year players.

Texas signee Avery Bradley of Henderson (Nev.) Findlay Prep School is No. 1. Georgia Tech signee Derrick Favors is No. 2, followed by Kentucky signee DeMarcus Cousins, Cincinnati signee Lance Stephenson and Florida signee Kenny Boynton.

The other UK signees are No. 15 Daniel Orton, No. 81 Eric Bledsoe and No. 113 Jon Hood, the state's Mr. Basketball.

Louisville Courier-Journal

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Previously, MU was Hoop Scoop's #1 back in April: http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=14576.0

Recent Hoop Scoop webpage: http://www.hoopscooponline.com/visitors/free-visitors.html

[ChicosBailBonds]

I'm curious what the recruiting gurus here feel about Hoopscoop?  I remember someone, maybe it was Viking or someone, last year said not to trust these guys too much.  Or maybe it was another service, I can't remember.

It's a great ranking, are they held in high regard?  They certainly seem to go for quantity which helps us and I suppose not all services use a points based system...is that true?

[NCMUFan]

Come on, do you feel a Louisville based company would ever let Kentucky be number 1?

[Skatastrophy]

I'm curious what the recruiting gurus here feel about Hoopscoop?  I remember someone, maybe it was Viking or someone, last year said not to trust these guys too much.  Or maybe it was another service, I can't remember.

It's a great ranking, are they held in high regard?  They certainly seem to go for quantity which helps us and I suppose not all services use a points based system...is that true?

I was curious about the same thing, so I did a lot of searching about their recruiting ranking service and the people that do it.  I couldn't find anyone bashing them besides a random "they suck" post on a a few out-of-the-way forums.

I'm not saying that they're legit... but they don't seem to be a laughingstock either.

[MU_Iceman]

I don't think anyone of us truly believes that this recruiting class is better than Kentucky's...I, for one, don't take hoopscoop as seriously BECAUSE they take volume into account.  They obviously think somewhat highly of our players, but the key "statistic" here is the Talent Rating Average per Recruit; which puts us behind Kansas, Texas, UNC, Nova, and Kentucky.

That said, my father played in college and coached at a high level and he told me at a young age that the best team you can have is a team of late-first round and second round NBA draft talents.  None of our boys project to be one-and-done's; IMO, Buzz is bringing in the type of talent (and hoopscoop seemingly agrees) that should stay in school and develop into a strong core of upperclassmen to build around and potentially make a late March run in a couple years.

So while I don't take hoopscoops placement of Marquette as the top recruiting class very seriously; I am thrilled to see that they think so highly of our top 5 incoming recruits.

[bilsu]

The tough part is how you consider the time value of a player. While I have never seen Wall or Cadougan play, I feel pretty confident as freshemn Wall is the more valuable recruit. After that Cadougan will be more valuable as a sophomore, junior and senior (ignoring the possibility of a transfer or injury), because Wall will be in the NBA. In my mind MU's class is strong, because it fills all five positions and some of the recruits are multiple position players. The class is weak because it does not contain any surefire NBA players.

As seniors this should be a very good team.
C Mbao
PF Roseborro
SF Maymom
2G Williams
PG Cadougan
Assuming they stay and avoid injuries I think this will be the top senior team remaining form this recruiting class.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I'm curious what the recruiting gurus here feel about Hoopscoop?  I remember someone, maybe it was Viking or someone, last year said not to trust these guys too much.  Or maybe it was another service, I can't remember.

It's a great ranking, are they held in high regard?  They certainly seem to go for quantity which helps us and I suppose not all services use a points based system...is that true?

My memory is better than I thought.   It was Viking and he follows recruiting much more than I do, he knows his stuff.

Here's the thread I was talking about 

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=8867.25


He definitely seemed to think Hoopscoop was the worst but I don't follow this enough to know who is considered good, timely, dated, wrong, incomplete, etc.

Perhaps others can weigh in or Viking will stop by to expand on the initial comments from last year.

[dwaderoy2004]

I doubt he's going to have any way of justifying that comment, other than just repeating that it is "known" that they are the worst.  Which is fine, because I have no way of justifying that they aren't the worst.  Hoopscoop generally gets crapped on because they do things differently.  I don't think their evaluation of talent is poor, just the way they rank classes, where indeed, volume alone can bump you up. 

[Mayor McCheese]

This is a joke.  I root for MU, and if given the chance, I would gladly take Kentucky's recruiting class over ours, not even a question.

Hoopscoop apparently just wanted to be different.

[GGGG]

This is a joke.  I root for MU, and if given the chance, I would gladly take Kentucky's recruiting class over ours, not even a question.

Hoopscoop apparently just wanted to be different.

I would take Kentucky's class if they decide to stick around for three years.  But the last couple of NCAA Champions show that teams with players who stick around for 3 or 4 years tend to be the ones that win national championships.

[kmwtrucks]

One thing to consider as well is. Do all 5 guys get cleared by the clearinghouse?  I think at least 3 might have concerns.  The second would be with 1 and done player's if they stop attending classes they can cost your school a scholarship (look at Ohio State).

[Big Papi]

The gripe with Hoopscoop is that their point system will reward teams with lot of commitments.  THing is they still need to be very good recruits to get high point totals.  I personally don't care one way or another and look at all the recruiting services as a whole.  All of them think we have a good class coming in and most don't even acknowledge DJO because he is juco who by all indications might be the best of the bunch.  The point to take from the Hoopscoop rankings is that someone who is considered an "expert" in this field, views our recruits very highly.  Doesn't really matter if we are number 1, 2 or 5.  Anytime MU's recruiting class is considered top 5, its a good thing.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Anytime MU's recruiting class is considered top 5, its a good thing.

I guess that's why I was asking the question.  I've seen us ranked #1 through #19 (I think)...all top 20 which is terrific, but a pretty big spread between them all.  That's why I was curious what folks thought about Hoopscoop.

Should be a fun year assuming everyone makes the grade and can mold as a team.

[rocky_warrior]

Hmmm - I think we need Mr. Sugar err Henry err Rob to do a statistical analysis of recruiting class rankings vs. team results to determine which ranking system works best 

I know, I should do it myself, but...maybe some day.

[77ncaachamps]

I can't say I can debate the methods HoopScoop uses with y'all, but I'm all for the notoriety and pub this program is getting!

Buzz and the gang can now actually tell a recruit, "We have the #1 ranked recruiting class in the country according to HoopScoop."

That's a great recruiting line!

[ChicosBailBonds]

I can't say I can debate the methods HoopScoop uses with y'all, but I'm all for the notoriety and pub this program is getting!

Buzz and the gang can now actually tell a recruit, "We have the #1 ranked recruiting class in the country according to HoopScoop."

That's a great recruiting line!

Unless the recruit thinks he won't play because of that class that was just brought in. 

[MU_Iceman]

Unless the recruit thinks he won't play because of that class that was just brought in. 

Exactly right, Chico...several people have expressed excitement over the qualitiy of players Buzz is supposedly "in on" for our last 2010 scholarship, but unless you're one of the perennial recruiting powerhouses (ie. UNC, Duke, Kansas, UK, etc) it is very difficult to convince top notch talent to commit one year after a highly regarded recruiting class.

We really need to add a quality big or another pg with our last schollie in '10; but if Jr, DJO, or Buycks lives up to expectations at PG don't expect us to bring in any noteworthy talent, because those kids won't want to serve as back-up...

It's a long way out, yet, but it'll be very interesting to monitor the level of interest MU gets from highly regarded players as the season approaches and progresses...

[bilsu]

Our last 2010 scholarship?
You can sign one over in the fall, so I would expect four signees. Remember Fulce's career could be over or Mbao may not be cleared.

[MU_Iceman]

Our last 2010 scholarship?
You can sign one over in the fall, so I would expect four signees. Remember Fulce's career could be over or Mbao may not be cleared.

True...I was referencing the three that we know we will have from Acker, Cubi, and Lazar (aka Bowen, Clark, and _____); but you're exactly right, if Fulce's career is officially over or Mbao doesn't clear, then yes, we have two more to play with...

[77ncaachamps]

Hypothetically speaking, if Fulce cannot return and deemed medically compromised, what NCAA designation would his situation receive?

[Marquette84]

Hypothetically speaking, if Fulce cannot return and deemed medically compromised, what NCAA designation would his situation receive?

It would depend on what status Marquette gives him. 

Most schools would probably take the player off basketball scholarship and recruit another to fill one of the 13 scholarships they can offer. 

However it's entirely up the the school--it is certainly within their right to use one of their 13 basketball scholarships on a "medically compromised" player if they choose.  If they choose to do that, they cannot recruit another replacement that year.

And while it bothers some people to hear it, basketball scholarships are one-year renewable.  MU has the choice to either offer or not offer a basketball scholarship in 2010-11 to a current-year junior who is medically compromised this year.

So, hypothetically speaking, if Fulce is academically compromised, my guess is that MU will not renew his basketball scholarship for his senior year and offer an academic- or need-based grant in its place.

And the NCAA will have nothing to do with it.

[77ncaachamps]

If that's true, thank you for the clarification.

[bma725]

Two words people, Ivan Renko.  If you don't know the story, look it up and you'll discover why HoopScoop's rankings were generally the least respected around(until ESPN started doing their own without Bob Gibbons this year).

That, and take a look at how their composite rankings where they lump in HS, Prep and JUCO players together(it's the rating they use for the point system that gives MU the #1 class).  In the past, they've rated Mike Kinsella, Marcus Jackson and Jamil Lott among the Top 40 prospects in their respective classes...and I'm talking overall prospects not just JUCO. 

[rocky_warrior]

Ok - I didn't know the Renko story, and I'm still a little unclear on how it unfolded.  Apparently Clark Francis had him ranked at some point (and maybe even provided commentary?), but I did dig up this 1993 article, which seems to indicate Francis didn't think he existed...

A QUESTION ABOUT IU RECRUIT IVAN RENKO: IS THIS GUY FOR REAL?

BLOOMINGTON, Ind. -- There are a couple of problems with Indiana University basketball coach Bob Knight's recent announcements that the Hoosiers have successfully recruited a 6-foot-8 player from Yugoslavia named Ivan Renko.

There no longer is a country of Yugoslavia and, apparently, there is no Ivan Renko, either. "There is no such person. I'm positive," said nationally known recruiting guru Bob Gibbons. "I was informed this kid doesn't exist."

Knight first made the statement Sunday on his half-hour TV program, then repeated it last night on his hour-long radio program.

Two of Knight's friends, requesting anonymity, believe he was starting a hoax.

NCAA rules prohibit coaches from discussing prospective recruits until they have signed national letters-of-intent. And with six new recruits coming to IU next season, the Hoosiers have no scholarships available. Indiana loses four seniors from a roster of 11, which includes injured junior Pat Graham and redshirt sophomore Todd Lindeman. The NCAA will allow 13 players on scholarship next season, but Knight last night expressed hope that number might be expanded to 14.

Gibbons said he first heard reports of an Ivan Renko allegedly playing basketball in New Hampshire. "I called people that I know there, not to mention every prep school in the area, to see if there was such a player," he said. "There was none."

"Knight can't say the guy's name (publicly) because of NCAA rules, so he has to be bogus," said Louisville's Clark Francis, publisher of Hoop Scoop magazine.

Knight said on his TV show that upon returning from IU's game Saturday night at Northwestern he learned that Renko had indicated plans to attend IU.

"Anybody who follows the political situation of civil unrest in Yugoslavia can appreciate the fact that we'd just kind of like to leave it go at that. Let it suffice to say that we're very pleased," Knight said.

Knight told his radio audience last night that he learned of Renko at a clinic he gave in Europe last July. He said one of the coaches there was an acquaintance from a clinic in Spain in 1971.

"Little did I know that in 1971 I would have met a guy who over 20 years later is going to be involved in steering us toward a player who could be, at some point, a very, very good player for us," Knight said.

Knight, who didn't return a phone call, is known for keeping a tight lid on Indiana's recruiting intentions.

"I think he's tired of people dabbling in his recruiting," Gibbons said. "I think he's going to show all of us that he's still Bob Knight. I'm totally convinced that it's bogus and that Knight is just playing games."

IU athletic director Clarence Doninger said he doesn't regularly discuss recruiting with Knight. Asked if the Renko story was a hoax, he said, "I'm really not even in a position to comment on that."

[bma725]

Basically, Knight thought(and perhaps still thinks) that Francis was a con artist who was posting evaluations and ranking players without actually seeing them.  So he made up the Ivan Renko thing as a big "gotcha" to Francis and a couple other guys.

Gibbons was honest from the beginning and said either he didn't know anything about him or he didn't exist.  Brick Oettinger(PrepStars) may have been as well.  But Francis claimed either he'd seen him or one of his employees had seen him, published evaluations of him and then ranked him.  It wasn't until later when Gibbons was going around talking about how it was fake that Francis finally backtracked and said the kid didn't exist.