Buzz is a great recruiter... period

[muarmy81]

Yes, a perfect example..

Georgia Tech made the final four in 2004.

In 2004 Hewitt was rumored to be leaving for St. Johns:
http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/sports/2004/03/19/2004-03-19_storm_rumors_for_calipari__h.html

And another from 2005 it was the Knicks in the NBA:
http://community.msgnetwork.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/55310655/m/14010927

In 2006 it was Oklahoma;
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/sioncampus/04/04/college/index.html

Need I point out that Georgia Tech recruiting suffered in 2004-2006 as compared to 2002.  

It took Hewitt years to downplay the rumors, just as it took Crean years to downplay rumors and land players like James, McNeal, Matthews, Hayward, Mbakwe, Taylor, Williams, etc.

2007...the rumors start coming out that Hewitt is on the hot seat
2008...rumors continue that Hewitt is gone, many argue that the only reason he's still at Tech is because of the Favors commitment and how has recruiting been bad between 2004-2006?  He landed Gani Lawal...too bad he's leaving school early for the NBA.

So is it easier to downplay rumors that you're going to a better gig? (would mean that you must be doing something right)

Or is it easier to downplay rumors that you're about to get canned? (Probably means that you're not doing something right)

[Marquette65]

I live in Atlanta. Believe it when it is said that the only reason Hewitt is still at Ga. Tech is Favors. Tech won 2 games in the ACC this year.  There were LOTS of empty seats at their home games. Money was raised and available to buy out his contract.

The Ga. Tech AD fired the football coach for a lack of progress in the program and was/is very concerned about the lack of progress and the loss of revenue w/ the empty seats w/the basketball program. 

[Lennys Tap]

Lenny, Deane tried to jump ship BEFORE he was fired.  KO did jump ship.  Rick DID jump ship.  Crean Did jump ship.

4 of the 5 I mentioned tried or did jump ship before year 5.  Only Dukiet didn't.

Your point was that TC was following a pattern set by his predecessors at MU. Therefore HIS "jumping ship" is irrelevant to your postulation. Two of the four were canned, and whether or not Deane explored the possibility of jumping before (or while) being pushed is moot. Rick technically left on his own, but he'd be the first to tell you he took a step back to learn his profession. Only KO fits your description (successful coach seeking "better" opportunity) and his decisions about what was better were curious at best - MU to Tennesee to Northwestern to the NBA (as an assistant) to Arizona (as an assistant). That's what I call a PLAN!

So by my count you get 2 of 4 and one of those is a technicality. The only one whose path TC really followed was KO's. And for KO the path led from young head coach at MU to aging assistant at Arizona. Maybe if Tom Izzo is still at MSU in 2020 he'll welcome TC back home.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Is anyone else thinking that Crean wouldn't have to downplay leaving if they were not true.  If Crean puts his feelers out every year or doing something that is hurting the team, he is not a good recruiter.  Plus, I love the list of players recruited by Crean have about half from one year and half in another school.  

I don't care what anyone says, Tom Crean was not a good recruiter.  Indiana or not, we had a MASSIVE hole at the 5 spot that he did not address in 2006.  TM was not the answer.  I know there are people on this board that think that he is the second coming of God knows what, but he wasn't.  TT or Nick Williams were not the answer for our future need of a solid PG.  Acker is a backup.  We all know that.  After the trio, recruiting one player of significant talent over 2 years is VERY poor.  I pop on this board and people talk about some of the great coaches in this league but its no mystery.  You need players to win.  Those coaches get about 2 or 3 players EVERY YEAR that have great talent or huge upside.  Crean got three winners one year, one the next, and THAT'S IT.  I will credit Crean with being able to assess talent but he had ZERO CLUE about addressing team needs.

Except that your statement is factually incorrect. First, NO ONE thinks he is the second coming of God.  Everyone agrees he had trouble landing a 5.

But your comment: "After the trio, recruiting one player of significant talent over 2 years is VERY poor."  That is just factually incorrect on every level.  He recruited MULTIPLE players after the trio, not just one.  He landed Mbakwe....top 100 player (RSCI).  He landed Lazar Hayward, will go down as likely top 5 scorer all time for MU and top 10 rebounder (top 100 for those ratings that included a Prep player).  He landed Tyshawn Taylor, top 100 player (RSCI) and starter as a freshman for Kansas.  He landed Nick Williams, top 100 player (in some services).  As head coach, he landed Erik Williams (yes, Buzz was the recruiter....just as Dale Layer was the recruiter for Bowen....head coach gets the credit....consensus top 100 player RSCI).  So your comments are just totally devoid of facts.  I count at least 5 top 100 players right there (not 1) as you suggested.


Finally, it's one thing to say he couldn't assess the team needs (or as you stated, he was clueless) and quite another in filling those needs.  I'd argue he absolutely had a clue with what the team needs were but he just couldn't fill them.  If he didn't have a clue, he wouldn't have bothered trying to land all the bigs he went after...would he?  Of course not.  So your comments, again, seem much more based on opinion then facts.   He wouldn't have wasted his time going after Butch, Stiemsma, McFarland, Anderson, Nankivil, Sutton, etc, etc, etc if he didn't want some bigs to come to MU.  Unfortunately for us, he often got to the top final 5 (or final 2) in those recriting battles but couldn't win the kids.  That by no means suggests he didn't understand the need, filling is a completely different story (that requires the kid to say yes).

[ChicosBailBonds]

2007...the rumors start coming out that Hewitt is on the hot seat
2008...rumors continue that Hewitt is gone, many argue that the only reason he's still at Tech is because of the Favors commitment and how has recruiting been bad between 2004-2006?  He landed Gani Lawal...too bad he's leaving school early for the NBA.

So is it easier to downplay rumors that you're going to a better gig? (would mean that you must be doing something right)

Or is it easier to downplay rumors that you're about to get canned? (Probably means that you're not doing something right)

For a guy on the hot seat for so long, how does he still have a job?      I think he is on the Hot Seat now, but two years ago the rumors were a bit much in my opinion.  He was coming off a NCAA bid (2006-07) so that never made sense to me as anything with legitimacy.

After this last year he had, he's definitely on the hot seat (miracle he has a job).  It does beg the question why after his Final Four hasn't he been able to keep it going?  Why was Tubby not able to?  How about Gary Williams?  Bruce Weber to some extent?  The LSU coach (Brady).  Etc, etc, etc. 

A Final Four is ZERO guarantee of success in the future.  That's for sure.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Your point was that TC was following a pattern set by his predecessors at MU. Therefore HIS "jumping ship" is irrelevant to your postulation. Two of the four were canned, and whether or not Deane explored the possibility of jumping before (or while) being pushed is moot. Rick technically left on his own, but he'd be the first to tell you he took a step back to learn his profession. Only KO fits your description (successful coach seeking "better" opportunity) and his decisions about what was better were curious at best - MU to Tennesee to Northwestern to the NBA (as an assistant) to Arizona (as an assistant). That's what I call a PLAN!

So by my count you get 2 of 4 and one of those is a technicality. The only one whose path TC really followed was KO's. And for KO the path led from young head coach at MU to aging assistant at Arizona. Maybe if Tom Izzo is still at MSU in 2020 he'll welcome TC back home.

Well we will agree to disagree.  4 of the 5 tried to leave or did leave.  MU was a stepping stone school.  Crean had just landed at the Final Four, conventional wisdom said he would leave (MU was still in CUSA, practiced at the complete joke that is the Old Gym, etc, etc).  People want to continue to deny what a stepping stone state we were in, but that was the absolute reality.

Crean decided to stay and make a go of it (along with heavy inducement to stay =  $$$$ and better facilities).  But rest assured other coaches were using that conventional wisdom thought process every step of the way.  That hurt recruiting.  Crean's name came up with every search (whether he put it there or not, it came up for one reason....MU was seen as a stepping stone school and better jobs were out there).  Until we got in the Big East were we able to finally say MU could play again with the big boys and not have to worry as much about losing a coach, until then it wasn't the case.

[Marquette84]

Your point was that TC was following a pattern set by his predecessors at MU. Therefore HIS "jumping ship" is irrelevant to your postulation. Two of the four were canned, and whether or not Deane explored the possibility of jumping before (or while) being pushed is moot. Rick technically left on his own, but he'd be the first to tell you he took a step back to learn his profession. Only KO fits your description (successful coach seeking "better" opportunity) and his decisions about what was better were curious at best - MU to Tennesee to Northwestern to the NBA (as an assistant) to Arizona (as an assistant). That's what I call a PLAN!

So by my count you get 2 of 4 and one of those is a technicality. The only one whose path TC really followed was KO's. And for KO the path led from young head coach at MU to aging assistant at Arizona. Maybe if Tom Izzo is still at MSU in 2020 he'll welcome TC back home.

Look, here's the general trend I cited:

1. Unproven, young coach brought in to revive a once-proud program that has fallen on hard times (or taking over for a recently departed coach).

2. New coach has outstanding recruiting class in his first couple of years.

3. New coach rides that outstanding recruiting to NCAA success.

4.  Rumors of departure for greener pastures surface and there is a corresponding decline in recruiting for several seasons.

5.  Coach either leaves for greener pastures, or recruiting recovers when player stop thinking of the coach as an risk to depart.


I don't want to play rope a dope with whether Hewitt was perceived to be a bigger threat to leave after the final four or when he was on the "hotseat."  

The bottom line is he fits the general trend to a T--big recruiting haul when he first arrived, significant success, final four appearance, relative decline in recruiting, recovery in the quality of his recruiting after a couple of down years.  

Same pattern with Crean. Same pattern with Wright.  Same pattern again and again with coach after coach.

Those who claim that I'm wrong who say that Crean was just a lousy recruiter cannot offer any explanation as to why he recruited good players early at MU, and good players later on, but only suffered in the middle for two years after the final four.  

At some point, you would concede that there is a pattern here that seems to happens frequently.

We'll see what happens with Buzz.  He may well buck the trend.  He may wind up seeing the 2012 season end with a final four run, with DJO, Otule and Clark graduating, and Cadougan and Maymon entering the draft early, leaving Buzz with with five scholsarhips to hand out.  He may well equal the #1 recruiting class he had this year.  I would say that we should expect a blockbuster class with 5 scholies to hand out.  Anything less, and one has to wonder what went wrong.

Frankly, I could just as easily see the 2012 recruits taking a wait-and-see attitude to see if Buzz leaves for the high profile Big 12 or ACC or SEC vacancy that he WILL be rumored to be the #1 target.  If Buzz winds up filling the scholarships with five players who don't quite measure up to the quality of the five that are leaving, then he becomes another example of a coach who fits the above pattern.  

[ErickJD08]

Except that your statement is factually incorrect. First, NO ONE thinks he is the second coming of God.  Everyone agrees he had trouble landing a 5.

But your comment: "After the trio, recruiting one player of significant talent over 2 years is VERY poor."  That is just factually incorrect on every level.  He recruited MULTIPLE players after the trio, not just one.  He landed Mbakwe....top 100 player (RSCI).  He landed Lazar Hayward, will go down as likely top 5 scorer all time for MU and top 10 rebounder (top 100 for those ratings that included a Prep player).  He landed Tyshawn Taylor, top 100 player (RSCI) and starter as a freshman for Kansas.  He landed Nick Williams, top 100 player (in some services).  As head coach, he landed Erik Williams (yes, Buzz was the recruiter....just as Dale Layer was the recruiter for Bowen....head coach gets the credit....consensus top 100 player RSCI).  So your comments are just totally devoid of facts.  I count at least 5 top 100 players right there (not 1) as you suggested.


Finally, it's one thing to say he couldn't assess the team needs (or as you stated, he was clueless) and quite another in filling those needs.  I'd argue he absolutely had a clue with what the team needs were but he just couldn't fill them.  If he didn't have a clue, he wouldn't have bothered trying to land all the bigs he went after...would he?  Of course not.  So your comments, again, seem much more based on opinion then facts.   He wouldn't have wasted his time going after Butch, Stiemsma, McFarland, Anderson, Nankivil, Sutton, etc, etc, etc if he didn't want some bigs to come to MU.  Unfortunately for us, he often got to the top final 5 (or final 2) in those recriting battles but couldn't win the kids.  That by no means suggests he didn't understand the need, filling is a completely different story (that requires the kid to say yes).

If Crean can't land a big man, HE IS NOT A GOOD RECRUITER.  

OK... SORRY.  TC recruited 2 good players in two players in TWO YEARS.  And talking about facts, TT and Nick Williams was in the third year after the trio (and he needed a PG that year and they are not PGs).  Why is this two year period important?  Its how to build a high caliber team.   We have a great class next year.  But the recruiting in the next two years will be the difference between a good team and great team.  I will always remember Wade and the Final Four run and I will give credit to Crean.  If he gets credit for success, he has to take the credit for a failure.  Crean recruited a trio of players (MU greats) that were UNBELIEVABLE building blocks for a championship team and I will curse his for dropping the ball.  If TM is a center, he basically recruited a solid starting 5 in three years, but having the best starting 5 RARELY wins championships.  And the drop in talent and ability was gross between the starting 5 and the 6, 7, and 8.  

We needed a true Center desperately in 2006 and Crean couldn't pull through.  We needed a PG to take the torch for this season, he didn't get one in 2008.  NOW, as things stand, I am EXTREMELY happy with Buzz's job of recruiting and filling in the HUGE holes Crean left behind.  Solid PG and some big men (I started this thread to express my appreciation of Buzz's understanding that we needed another big man with McMorrow's career ending injury... and he pulled through in the clutch where Crean couldn't in two years) .  

[ChicosBailBonds]

If Crean can't land a big man, HE IS NOT A GOOD RECRUITER.  

OK... SORRY.  TC recruited 2 good players in two players in TWO YEARS.  And talking about facts, TT and Nick Williams was in the third year after the trio (and he needed a PG that year and they are not PGs).  Why is this two year period important?  Its how to build a high caliber team.   We have a great class next year.  But the recruiting in the next two years will be the difference between a good team and great team.  I will always remember Wade and the Final Four run and I will give credit to Crean.  If he gets credit for success, he has to take the credit for a failure.  Crean recruited a trio of players (MU greats) that were UNBELIEVABLE building blocks for a championship team and I will curse his for dropping the ball.  If TM is a center, he basically recruited a solid starting 5 in three years, but having the best starting 5 RARELY wins championships.  And the drop in talent and ability was gross between the starting 5 and the 6, 7, and 8.  

We needed a true Center desperately in 2006 and Crean couldn't pull through.  We needed a PG to take the torch for this season, he didn't get one in 2008.  NOW, as things stand, I am EXTREMELY happy with Buzz's job of recruiting and filling in the HUGE holes Crean left behind.  Solid PG and some big men (I started this thread to express my appreciation of Buzz's understanding that we needed another big man with McMorrow's career ending injury... and he pulled through in the clutch where Crean couldn't in two years) .  

It's hard to tell you are EXTREMELY satisfied with Buzz.   

Maybe I misread your statement, but I thought you said he recruited only ONE player that was any good after the trio.  I named 5 just off the top of my head.  If I misinterpreted your comments, forgive me but that's how I took them.

I don't know if Crean was a good recruiter, piss poor recruiter, great recruiter, or what have you.  I tend to think that opinions that say HE IS NOT A GOOD RECRUITER (your statements) are way too broad and have too many other danglers of emotion attached to them (just my opinion).

So if he was not a good recruiter, he must have been a good coach because it would be nearly impossible to have the 3rd best record in the Big East in 4 years if he wasn't a good recruiter....right?   


Personally, I think he was an above average recruiter overall, a great recruiter for guards, a poor recruiter at the 5 spot.  I think comments saying he didn't understand the needs of the team are baseless, he certainly did but couldn't land the kids.  It's like saying a GM doesn't understand the needs that his team needs a top QB but because of his draft position isn't able to take a top QB (he gets it, doesn't mean he has the ability to draft them).

I thank Crean for his 9 years, the wonderful players he brought in, etc.  I'm frustrated as much as anyone about the lack of quality bigs, it certainly hurt.  He went after them, he didn't get them.  Such is life.  Somehow, despite having a coach "WHO IS NOT A GOOD RECRUITER" we ended up with some very successful years at MU.  I hope it continues, I'm sure it will.

[Lennys Tap]

Look, here's the general trend I cited:

1. Unproven, young coach brought in to revive a once-proud program that has fallen on hard times (or taking over for a recently departed coach).

2. New coach has outstanding recruiting class in his first couple of years.

3. New coach rides that outstanding recruiting to NCAA success.

4.  Rumors of departure for greener pastures surface and there is a corresponding decline in recruiting for several seasons.

5.  Coach either leaves for greener pastures, or recruiting recovers when player stop thinking of the coach as an risk to depart.


I don't want to play rope a dope with whether Hewitt was perceived to be a bigger threat to leave after the final four or when he was on the "hotseat."  

The bottom line is he fits the general trend to a T--big recruiting haul when he first arrived, significant success, final four appearance, relative decline in recruiting, recovery in the quality of his recruiting after a couple of down years.  

Same pattern with Crean. Same pattern with Wright.  Same pattern again and again with coach after coach.

Those who claim that I'm wrong who say that Crean was just a lousy recruiter cannot offer any explanation as to why he recruited good players early at MU, and good players later on, but only suffered in the middle for two years after the final four.  

At some point, you would concede that there is a pattern here that seems to happens frequently.

We'll see what happens with Buzz.  He may well buck the trend.  He may wind up seeing the 2012 season end with a final four run, with DJO, Otule and Clark graduating, and Cadougan and Maymon entering the draft early, leaving Buzz with with five scholsarhips to hand out.  He may well equal the #1 recruiting class he had this year.  I would say that we should expect a blockbuster class with 5 scholies to hand out.  Anything less, and one has to wonder what went wrong.

Frankly, I could just as easily see the 2012 recruits taking a wait-and-see attitude to see if Buzz leaves for the high profile Big 12 or ACC or SEC vacancy that he WILL be rumored to be the #1 target.  If Buzz winds up filling the scholarships with five players who don't quite measure up to the quality of the five that are leaving, then he becomes another example of a coach who fits the above pattern.  

I happen to agree with the general thrust of your post but I think you were intending to reply to a different post than mine.

[Lennys Tap]

It's hard to tell you are EXTREMELY satisfied with Buzz.   

Maybe I misread your statement, but I thought you said he recruited only ONE player that was any good after the trio.  I named 5 just off the top of my head.  If I misinterpreted your comments, forgive me but that's how I took them.

I don't know if Crean was a good recruiter, piss poor recruiter, great recruiter, or what have you.  I tend to think that opinions that say HE IS NOT A GOOD RECRUITER (your statements) are way too broad and have too many other danglers of emotion attached to them (just my opinion).

So if he was not a good recruiter, he must have been a good coach because it would be nearly impossible to have the 3rd best record in the Big East in 4 years if he wasn't a good recruiter....right?   


Personally, I think he was an above average recruiter overall, a great recruiter for guards, a poor recruiter at the 5 spot.  I think comments saying he didn't understand the needs of the team are baseless, he certainly did but couldn't land the kids.  It's like saying a GM doesn't understand the needs that his team needs a top QB but because of his draft position isn't able to take a top QB (he gets it, doesn't mean he has the ability to draft them).

I thank Crean for his 9 years, the wonderful players he brought in, etc.  I'm frustrated as much as anyone about the lack of quality bigs, it certainly hurt.  He went after them, he didn't get them.  Such is life.  Somehow, despite having a coach "WHO IS NOT A GOOD RECRUITER" we ended up with some very successful years at MU.  I hope it continues, I'm sure it will.

"I hope it continues, I'm SURE it will." I love that you've joined us out on the limb. Welcome.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Don't you know Lenny I had my fingers crossed when I said that.