DJO / state of the program article -- pretty interesting

[ChicosBailBonds]

sounding good on camera and in interviews (yes, that's important....see Ron Dayne as an example of how not to do it).

OK sorry I have to jump in here. 

Besides the obvious racial undertones, what exactly did Ron Dayne do wrong other than not speak the Kings English?  Yes sir no sir. Never thumped his chest when interviewed. Extremely respectful, courteous, self affacing,  and soft spoken.  Did him winning the Heisman and back to back Rose Bowls as well as breaking college footballs most prestigious record bum you out and rock your little world that much???? 

Did I miss something with the Jerel McNeal and DJ? Are they eloquent speakers and sound like they grew up in your all white suburb? 

Really a cheap shot at a great kid who did everything right, as did the Big 3.  You really need to check yourself if this is where you are going.

In the general frame of this thread I agree.  Not a big deal if they represent MU well.  But history shows Juco players are a much bigger risk.  Nice to see some honest discussion.

Not a cheap shot at all.  UW-Madison is a fine school and every time Dayne was on camera he sounded like someone with a 4th grade education who should not have been admitted to college, let alone an institution like UW-Madison.  It made people cringe, including many UW-madison graduates.  We all realize that some athletes come from poorer backgrounds, bad schools, etc.  We get it.  Here was exhibit A at it's finest.  And one has to chuckle at the irony over the years of you bashing what's wrong with college athletics (here's an idea, why don't you start a thread on Buckyville about that...oh wait, you have already), bashing other schools, claiming that schools are cheating in academics and paying players when you turn a blind eye against a kid that no way could get through a year of college, let alone 4 years with his aptitude.  The double standard is incredible on your part.

But that's never stopped you before nor will it in the future.  Two sets of standards for you.  Weren't you just recently spouting off about the eligibility of an MU player just the other day, yet again did you ever say one thing about Dayne's inability to, I don't know...read?  Ever seen his Wonderlic score?  It's tragic. 

I just want to know in his 4 years at UW-Madison, did someone pull him aside and actually teach him to read and write?  Because just passing him through each class year after year to keep the grid iron success going did a tremendous disservice to the young man.

[Lennys Tap]

Lenny,

MU admitted a Prop 48 kid in Gerald Posey in 1987. He had to sit out the year and then only played in about 20 games the next season before dropping out.

Was unaware that Dwyane was our 2nd non qualifier in 20+ years. The fact remains that if we had not "lowered our standards" to admit him MU's recent past would have been changed for the worse and its present and future would be likely iffy. Crean vouched for his character and Fr.Wild acquiessed. The rest is, as they say, history.

I trust that Buzz will recruit guys with character. He seems like that sort of man. A point on the ACT's or .2 of a point on one's high school transcript is meaningless to me when weighed against that.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Was unaware that Dwyane was our 2nd non qualifier in 20+ years. The fact remains that if we had not "lowered our standards" to admit him MU's recent past would have been changed for the worse and its present and future would be likely iffy. Crean vouched for his character and Fr.Wild acquiessed. The rest is, as they say, history.

I trust that Buzz will recruit guys with character. He seems like that sort of man. A point on the ACT's or .2 of a point on one's high school transcript is meaningless to me when weighed against that.

It has to be a case by case basis.  As long as Buzz and the administration fully vet these kids, it's worth it.  But it can't be a blanket policy because the risk is there and if it blows up on them, the university will shut that practice down quickly.

[Lennys Tap]

Right on.  I'll tell  you what these guys are much more mature than I was at 18-22.  As a few on this board would testify, I spent a large part of my college life in places like the Black Spider, the Gym, and then after graduation moved on to tending bar at the Stone Toad.    These basketball kids "work" there way through college, especially at an institution like Marquette.  They've all shown great  character.  To equate their attendance at a JUCO is just silly. 

Don't sell yourself short. At least after basically living in bars for three years you figured out a way to earn a living while enjoying your favorite hobby. If that wasn't the best blueprint for true happiness it was certainly in the team photo.

[Lennys Tap]

It has to be a case by case basis.  As long as Buzz and the administration fully vet these kids, it's worth it.  But it can't be a blanket policy because the risk is there and if it blows up on them, the university will shut that practice down quickly.

You are correct. Marquette as an institution expects more from its student athletes than most, so it's incumbent on the coach to recruit players who are up to the challenge. This, however, does not disqualify jucos or transfers. It does disqualify those unwilling to do the work.

[bma725]

MU admitted a Prop 48 kid in Gerald Posey in 1987. He had to sit out the year and then only played in about 20 games the next season before dropping out.

He didn't drop out.  He had a disagreement with Dukiet and stormed off the court during warm ups early in the year never to return.  By the time January rolled around, Posey transferred to Trenton State College(now College of New Jersey) where he was immediately eligible and ended up playing on their team that went to the DIII championship game that year.

[Atlanta Warrior]

For all the talk of the Mike Deane era being a downward spiral, it sure was a lot of fun to root for those teams...not to mention O'Neill's squads. Give me an undersized Cordell Henry or Faisal Abraham or Lovette or Wardle and I'll get behind them. McIlvaine, Key, Trevor Powell, Logterman, Pieper.

I'll always cheer on the Warriors, but some of this stuff is starting to sound like we're talking about another school. 5 or 6 JUCOs on one roster? What is going on?

Those claiming there is no stigma associated with JUCOs are either lying to themselves or delusional.

I come to this board occasionally and post rarely but one thing that is obvious is that Puerto Rican Nightmare needs to quit sippin on the haterade.  I really don't think this guy finds anything positive to say about this program. 

The JUCO thing is getting a little crazy.  Frankly, I see a lot of elitism and quite possibly bigotry.  The stigma attached to these JUCO kids is simply unfair and uncalled for.  Let's look at this on a case-by-case basis:

Fulce: Qualified out of prep school but due to some events out of his control ended up at JUCO for athletic not ACADEMIC reasons.
Butler: Fully qualified out of high school but chose JUCO route due to lack of scholarship offers again this was an athletic not ACADEMIC decision.
Buycks: Apparently he needed to go to JUCO due to his failure to complete some core courses in high school.  Word is that he has successfully completed the academics at the JUCO level.
DJO: Some issues with the clearing house and was ultimately cleared which is why he will have full eligibility as a SOPH.  Currently carries a 3.2 GPA.

The bottomline is that I believe that Buzz places as much emphasis on character and ability to acheive success academically as he does on a recruit's athletic prospects.  All of these young men, by all accounts I have read, are quality people.

I guess the question I have for some is what would your opinion be of any other student who transferred to MU from a JUCO?  Having lived in California for many years I knew many people who attended JUCO's for financial reasons and subsequently transferred to schools in the UC system to complete the BA or BS.

It is completely unreasonable to make assumptions about these kids simply because they initially attended a JUCO.

[butchbadger]

Wow. Just wow. Have you ever heard an MU hoops player interviewed in the last 30 years whitey?

Today you questioned a kid for good reason. We agreed. But was he seemingly smarter or more well spoken than Ron Dayne there?

Your problem with Dayne is he won a Heisman at the University of Wisconsin.  The single thing you hate on this Earth hurt right after democrats.  And he led the team you hate most to back to back Rose Bowls. Wow those must've been some dark New Years.

I could easily call it racism but I know it is something else.  

Glass houses boy. Your team is sliding them in left and right.  We'll see how it goes.  I hope all the young men get educated since the odds of making if professionally in hoops are small.  Ron Dayne has a huge NFL pension so I don't worry about him.  He has also given over a million dollars to charity, but he doesn't speak that well so fruck him and his Wonderlic score.

Why couldn't you answer the simple question?  Or post the link?  I want to believe in you but you make it difficult.


Can't tell where you are coming from with all the dirty schools. Are that naive to think that college athletics is clean?

The NCAA is either blind or chooses to be.  Is Cal clean?  Pitino?  Floyd?  Matta?   Worldwide Wes?  College football? Anyone

I know plenty of people in the mix, and they say otherwise. Why do you defend them?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Wow. Just wow. Have you ever heard an MU hoops player interviewed in the last 30 years whitey?

Today you questioned a kid for good reason. We agreed. But was he seemingly smarter or more well spoken than Ron Dayne there?

Your problem with Dayne is he won a Heisman at the University of Wisconsin.  The single thing you hate on this Earth hurt right after democrats.  And he led the team you hate most to back to back Rose Bowls. Wow those must've been some dark New Years.

I could easily call it racism but I know it is something else.  

Glass houses boy. Your team is sliding them in left and right.  We'll see how it goes.  I hope all the young men get educated since the odds of making if professionally in hoops is small.  Ron Dayne has a huge NFL pension so I don't worry about him.  He has also given over a million dollars to charity, but he doesn't speak that well so fruck him and his Wonderlic score.

Why couldn't you answer the simple question?  Or post the link?  I want to believe in you but you make it difficult.


Can't tell where you are coming from with all the dirty schools. Are that naive to think that college athletics is clean?

The NCAA is either blind or chooses to be.  Is Cal clean?  Pitino?  Floyd?  Matta?   Worldwide Wes?  College football? Anyone

I know plenty of people in the mix, and they say otherwise. Why do you defend them?

When you say absolutely bullcrap nonsense like 90% of the schools are cheating or wouldn't have sat their players due academic problems, you're completely out to lunch.  Completely.  Take it from someone that actually worked in the field for a long time, something you never did.  You have no idea what you are talking about.  NONE.  And of course in the very next breath when you say 90% are cheating you lay this absolute crap that UW-Madison is some lilly white, clean institution.  News for you, they have been on NCAA probation 7 times, only one short of the all-time record.

I know, I know....shoe discounts is no big thing.  Your typical response.

You continue to bring up the same 4 or 5 guys with shady pasts when there are 339 DI institutions, let alone all the DII and DIII and NAIA schools.  There are far far far more cleaner programs and people then the corrupt ones.  Of course there are some corrupt people in college athletics, just as there are in every field. 

But just as there are some Jucos that are problematic, they aren't all that way.  And the race card....very creative.  If you knew here I have CHOSEN to live, in the city and neighborhood you would look incredibly stupid with that comment.  Incredibly stupid.

[butchbadger]

90% of the schools are cheating hyperbole?  it is a few in hoops and most in football.

UW-Madison is some lilly white, clean institution Never said that. There have been plenty of problems in the past.  Currently the very successful BB program is impeccable.  Football? Not sure. I don't like the coach at all and am curently losing interest because of it.  I have  consistenly said whatever they did to get Clay into school (Maymon) I don't like it.  I won't support that stuff.


Under Barry  I am sure they weren't perfect my hunch is they were better than most B10 schools and all SEC and Big 12 schools.


If I was a big MU supporter my biggest complaint about the Juco would be ...when did 5-6 Jucos on a team actually work well?

Let's agree to agree...Obama is a fraud.

[ChicosBailBonds]

90% of the schools are cheating hyperbole?  it is a few in hoops and most in football.

UW-Madison is some lilly white, clean institution Never said that. There have been plenty of problems in the past.  Currently the very successful BB program is impeccable.  Football? Not sure. I don't like the coach at all and am curently losing interest because of it.  I have  consistenly said whatever they did to get Clay into school (Maymon) I don't like it.  I won't support that stuff.


Under Barry  I am sure they weren't perfect my hunch is they were better than most B10 schools and all SEC and Big 12 schools.


If I was a big MU supporter my biggest complaint about the Juco would be ...when did 5-6 Jucos on a team actually work well?

Let's agree to agree...Obama is a fraud.

The basketball program is impeccable?  Yes, it's been what, 3 years since 4 guys were academically ineligible and one of them forced off the team in a Bo House Cleaning.  It's been 2 years since Bo Ryan had the audacity to question Bruce Pearl's vehicle of choice at a FUNERAL for Homan's kid who had died tragically.  If Crean had made those comments you would have been howling at the moon. It's been at least, what, a few years since McGee, Wade, etc.?

Please.  Your glasses are so red tinted it's incredible.   And there you go again with the ALL the Big 12 and most of the SEC crap.  You have no idea what you are talking about.  Absolutely NONE!

Politics will get you banned from this site

[butchbadger]

see my PM...

[Norm]

How on earth did Obama enter this thread? Please keep politics out of it.

[Atlanta Warrior]

How on earth did Obama enter this thread? Please keep politics out of it.

My observation on this board is that threads often get hijacked and it is usualy as a result of a pissing contest between MU and UW partisans.  The amount of personal invective is also far more prevelant on this site.  That said I enjoy a wide range of opinions and appreciate that quality information that often appears.

[ecompt]

I can't be a hypocrite here. I ripped Huggins and Cincinnati for continually bringing in JUCOs and I can't say I"m happy Buzz appears to be going to same route. I would hope this is a stopgap measure until Buzz gets his feet wet and can successfully recruit more and better incoming freshmen.
On the other hand, I don't think ANY school that plays big-time football can ever criticize a non-football-playing school for the players it admits. I'm sure UW has bent its standards 10 times for every one time MU has admitted an athlete who is borderline. You can't maintain successful programs in football, Bball and men's and women's hockey without taking in some kids who do not belong anywhere near a college campus.

[warriormom]

Wow....I can't believe how these young men can be stereotyped as JUCOs.  When did every player who went the JUCO route become someone who won't be a good representative for our University or qualified to be a student.
Is it really the Marquette way to be judging people by a class than as an individual.
Joe Fulce is working very hard and is doing well in school and Jimmy Butler has been a fine representative for our school
Don't these young men coming in deserve to be given the benefit of the doubt.  Why do they need to prove themselves as people but qualifiers out of HS are given a free pass.

[MUWarrior06]

Wow....I can't believe how these young men can be stereotyped as JUCOs.  When did every player who went the JUCO route become someone who won't be a good representative for our University or qualified to be a student.
Is it really the Marquette way to be judging people by a class than as an individual.
Joe Fulce is working very hard and is doing well in school and Jimmy Butler has been a fine representative for our school
Don't these young men coming in deserve to be given the benefit of the doubt.  Why do they need to prove themselves as people but qualifiers out of HS are given a free pass.

Couldn't agree more.

I think JUCO is actually a great route for athletes to take. They can go to a D1 school and sit the bench for a year (see Fulce, Otule). Or they can go to JUCO and start a full season and then transfer.

In my opinion, they are more attractive with a full season!

These are good kids, not ghetto trash. Give them the benefit of the doubt.

[MR.HAYWARD]

I would rather have a Juco like Jimmy Butler on my alma maters team than a qualifier out of high school like eric devendorf.  its about character and Crean did and Buzz will continue to bring in high character kids

[LovinCrowder]

Wow....I can't believe how these young men can be stereotyped as JUCOs.  When did every player who went the JUCO route become someone who won't be a good representative for our University or qualified to be a student.
Is it really the Marquette way to be judging people by a class than as an individual.
Joe Fulce is working very hard and is doing well in school and Jimmy Butler has been a fine representative for our school
Don't these young men coming in deserve to be given the benefit of the doubt.  Why do they need to prove themselves as people but qualifiers out of HS are given a free pass.

+1   Very well stated warriormom!!

[radome]

I believe in the administration and in Coach Buzz so I trust that they are ensuring the character of our student-athletes.  Still, I have this bias about JUCOs that is unwarranted.  I think that it comes from the old Tark the Shark UNLV days.  It just seemed like he brought in JUCOs, with no intention of getting an education, and won regularly with them.  It felt wrong even though it was legal.  No facts ... just this feeling.  Once again though I think this is different, and I trust Buzz.

[mu_hilltopper]

My observation on this board is that threads often get hijacked and it is usualy as a result of a pissing contest between MU and UW partisans.  The amount of personal invective is also far more prevelant on this site.  That said I enjoy a wide range of opinions and appreciate that quality information that often appears.

Wow, really?  THIS board?  Are you sure you're not confusing us with Scout, which has a hoard of resident badger fans? 

This is the board that has its threads hijacked by Tom Crean defenders / haters!