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Author Topic: Will the troop surge work?  (Read 24648 times)

Murffieus

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Re: Will the troop surge work?
« Reply #25 on: February 02, 2007, 03:00:48 PM »
I think the big reason why there have been no terrorist attacks here since 9/11 is that we have their focus & energy tied up in Iraq----also the fact that Bush has decapitated a large part of Al Quida and they're desperately trying to regroup-----hard to export your product when your bogged down domestically!

mu_hilltopper

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Re: Will the troop surge work?
« Reply #26 on: February 02, 2007, 03:16:30 PM »
That's certainly the company line.  Again, it's hard to believe the bad guys are that dumb.

If I were a terrorist, especially fanatical enough to give up my life and do a suicide mission, you'd think instead of just being another bomber blowing up some corner in Baghdad (that's probably been blown up twice before), you'd want to go out in style, and do it in America where you'd be on the front page of every newspaper in the world.

I continue to be amazed it hasn't happened.  I give credit to the government(s) from stopping grand scale attacks .. still amazes me they haven't decided to slip across our pourous border to the south and try something here.

spiral97

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Re: Will the troop surge work?
« Reply #27 on: February 02, 2007, 04:02:24 PM »
I think the big reason why there have been no terrorist attacks here since 9/11 is that we have their focus & energy tied up in Iraq----also the fact that Bush has decapitated a large part of Al Quida and they're desperately trying to regroup-----hard to export your product when your bogged down domestically!

I had that thought, but then again, if they are so bogged down "domestically" then why have they been able to launch attacks in other countries?

I half wonder if it is on purpose.. lure the american public into a false sense of security so that when it is disrupted again it has a more maximum effect (bigger fall->harder hit->greater return on effort).  Unfortunately, in my thoughts, it is not a matter of "if" they strike again, but "when".
Once a warrior always a warrior.. even if the feathers must now come with a beak.

Murffieus

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Re: Will the troop surge work?
« Reply #28 on: February 02, 2007, 08:25:00 PM »
Spiral----that could be part of it----maybe a big part----(the fact that it would awaken the American people into stiifening their resolve in Iraq) !

mviale

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Re: Will the troop surge work?
« Reply #29 on: February 03, 2007, 12:35:26 AM »
We are being lulled into a false sense of security.  The attacks on the WTC came after long intervals of quiet.  Our actions in the ME have only created more versions of al-queada.    I dont feel any safer with the decider or decision maker in office.   However, The decider is galvanizing democrats and republicans into a mainstream anti-war movement that wants to re-focus on alternative fuel solutions to cut our reliance on Middle East oil and fossel fuels. I was concerned that America was losing its mind 3 years ago, but recent election results point to change. 

We have many more pressing security issues at home to deal with and these are much more important than Iraq to the majority of Americans.  The thought that Iraq can be "won" with more troops or an escalation is unworkable ~ This is a civil war and it is time to pull away.  There are urgent national security issues at home that can use practical solutions from our elected leaders:

--global warming already effecting the SE - need to rebuild and protect our coasts. 
--Reduce our reliance on fossel fuels.  Enforce mileage rules for Car manufacturers and in turn make them competitive. Turn the green movement into a money maker for our country.
-- Updated infrastructure projects - roads, power plants, ports etc....
--poor education - not competitive with the rest of the world. Huge security issue
--A dissappearing middle class ~ we are starting to see 2 classes in this country.  How can we create jobs that actually pay the bills ~ starts with education.
--The cost of health care is making it difficult for our companies to compete globally.  Our elderly and youth are the big casualties here.

















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augoman

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Re: Will the troop surge work?
« Reply #30 on: February 04, 2007, 03:20:01 PM »
actually, the 9/11 attacks were not long after the uss cole attack, but you are right, the media is galvanizing the masses into an anti-defense frame of mind and re-focusing our attention to other things. and yes, we have to rebuild the SE after the natural disaster- katrina.   and yes, we need more school choice to elevate the quality of our education system- less money on bricks and mortar, bi-lingual social workers, and more on additional teachers and teaching 'tools'.  and yes, we can go back to monetary penalties (might still be in place) for auto manufacturers (called it "gas guzzeler tax"), as we did in '83, or so.  i'd rather incentivize hydrogen autos, true electric autos and cng autos.  our health care is being flogged to death with the 'benefit assimilation' of those whom are benefitting from company coverage;  demanding more and more elective and even absurd coverages (chiropractors, massage therapy, cosmetic dental, stomach-stapling now called gastric by-pass, psycho-counselors, a.d.d. meds, and on and on...,) and still our health care system is the envy of the world.  already common to meet canadians in waiting rooms who've come down for hip or knee replacement at their own expense because the wait in canada is 5 years, yet their 'socialized medicine' was held up as an example by the committee hilary formed to "fix" our health care.  i apologize if i got long-winded.  in answer to your post we absolutely are falling asleep if we forget that they have been attacking us since '79 when they took the hostages in iran and we stuck a thumb up our collective asses and said "gee, that's mean"!

TVDirector

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Re: Will the troop surge work?
« Reply #31 on: February 04, 2007, 03:40:01 PM »
We are being lulled into a false sense of security.  The attacks on the WTC came after long intervals of quiet.  Our actions in the ME have only created more versions of al-queada.    I dont feel any safer with the decider or decision maker in office.   However, The decider is galvanizing democrats and republicans into a mainstream anti-war movement that wants to re-focus on alternative fuel solutions to cut our reliance on Middle East oil and fossel fuels. I was concerned that America was losing its mind 3 years ago, but recent election results point to change. 

We have many more pressing security issues at home to deal with and these are much more important than Iraq to the majority of Americans.  The thought that Iraq can be "won" with more troops or an escalation is unworkable ~ This is a civil war and it is time to pull away.  There are urgent national security issues at home that can use practical solutions from our elected leaders:

--global warming already effecting the SE - need to rebuild and protect our coasts. 
--Reduce our reliance on fossel fuels.  Enforce mileage rules for Car manufacturers and in turn make them competitive. Turn the green movement into a money maker for our country.
-- Updated infrastructure projects - roads, power plants, ports etc....
--poor education - not competitive with the rest of the world. Huge security issue
--A dissappearing middle class ~ we are starting to see 2 classes in this country.  How can we create jobs that actually pay the bills ~ starts with education.
--The cost of health care is making it difficult for our companies to compete globally.  Our elderly and youth are the big casualties here.



oh my goodness, I could not have summed it up better.
reading 'state of denial' by woodward now--- it's stunning, based upon the recounts he received by so many, how utterly rudderless this endeavor has been... with absolutely no forsight toward the resulting long-term implications.

















77ncaachamps

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Re: Will the troop surge work?
« Reply #32 on: February 04, 2007, 04:52:14 PM »
Honestly, I believe the options presented are simply the difference between slow failure and quick failure.  The only honest debate is whether to withdraw immediately, or make plans to stay 5, maybe 10 or 15 more years.

The surge?  Like a 6-9-12 month surge?  Not a chance.

I entered late into this debate, but this post makes me think:

"If the American public knew that this "war" would go on for as long as it did (or more), would they have voted for it?"

The fervor of 9/11 has me say yes...but I cannot imagine that those you said yes have not yet second-guessed themselves (as the polls reveal).

On a side note, I find it appalling that we can continually fork over money to fund this quagmire when we talk of cutting/not funding social security and other social programs.
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mu_hilltopper

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Re: Will the troop surge work?
« Reply #33 on: February 04, 2007, 07:10:32 PM »
Indeed, there's an article on abcnews.com about how we're coming up on $1 trillion on war spending, and how that compares to other efforts inside our government. 

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/WhosCounting/story?id=2844304&page=1

That's $3k for every man, woman, and child inside the US.  Or $150 for everyone on the entire planet .. some of whom, live on less than $150/year.

.. However, it also should open up possibilities.  If our nation can spend $1T, really, so easily, for a war of choice, why not aim that kind of money at other things, like medical research, education, etc, or even homeland security.  Suddenly, the idea that it's too expensive or hard to check every cargo container entering the country doesn't ring true.

(Now, of course I don't advocate spending $1T.  The fiscal irresponsibility that's gone on for the past 6 years is enraging.)

77ncaachamps

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Re: Will the troop surge work?
« Reply #34 on: February 05, 2007, 08:33:25 PM »
With the budget now issued, it's amazing how much burden is being placed on the states, municipalities.

Yet he'll (it'll) happily take money from your pocket...while telling you to tighten your pocket.

Frickin' idiot.
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spiral97

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Re: Will the troop surge work?
« Reply #35 on: February 05, 2007, 10:10:31 PM »
yeah.. I keep thinking that four years of this same budget but diverted towards paying off the national debt would take care of that completely.

This is when you go to the Iraqis and say "we will support you, but you need to support us supporting you - make an equivalent amount of gas available to the US for free in exchange".
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77ncaachamps

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Re: Will the troop surge work?
« Reply #36 on: February 06, 2007, 01:30:33 AM »
yeah.. I keep thinking that four years of this same budget but diverted towards paying off the national debt would take care of that completely.

This is when you go to the Iraqis and say "we will support you, but you need to support us supporting you - make an equivalent amount of gas available to the US for free in exchange".

But wasn't that the point of liberating Iraq?!?
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spiral97

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Re: Will the troop surge work?
« Reply #37 on: February 06, 2007, 07:44:35 AM »
yeah.. I keep thinking that four years of this same budget but diverted towards paying off the national debt would take care of that completely.

This is when you go to the Iraqis and say "we will support you, but you need to support us supporting you - make an equivalent amount of gas available to the US for free in exchange".

But wasn't that the point of liberating Iraq?!?

who knows.. but if it is then I gotta say.. "show me the oil!"
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Tommy Brice for Coach

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Re: Will the troop surge work?
« Reply #38 on: February 06, 2007, 02:43:42 PM »
They now compose 20% of the german populace.

Off-Topic:
Muslims are 3.7% of the German Population. https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/gm.html

You try to make it sound like EVERY Muslim is a terrorist. That's pretty offensive if you ask me. The reality is that they (terrorists) are a small segment of their religion, just as there is a small segment of very fundamentalist Christians in this country that will stop at nothing until our national religion is Christianity. I'd like to stop seeing these sweeping generalizations - I'm pretty sure the Muslim MU students out there would be offended.

/Off topic

As for the troop surge, I believe no matter how we got into the war, we need to finish it. Up and leaving Iraq right now would be a disaster that would hurt us later on. However, I just want to know how many more "surges" it will take to stabilize that country? How many more American men and women must die for this war? What we need is a plan that we present to the Iraqis and the world. We tell them we are leaving in X weeks/months/years, and that if they can't pull it together, it isn't our problem.

Someone mentioned that we shouldn't focus on how we got into this war. This is incorrect. Even though we need to finish it, we should investigate the cause of this war 100% to prevent these kinds of things from happening ever again.
 

77ncaachamps

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Re: Will the troop surge work?
« Reply #39 on: February 06, 2007, 03:09:24 PM »
Question for you (and history is on your side): How does this logic play out with the Vietnam War? Do you think that when we pulled out, it left Vietnam in a better position than it once was?
SS Marquette

jzolt

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Re: Will the troop surge work?
« Reply #40 on: February 06, 2007, 03:50:04 PM »
Just remember why the Soviet Union collapsed. They got bogged down in Afghanistan and spent themselves out of existence on a war they couldn't win. All their enemies including the U. S. sat back and watched them defeat themselves. They did to themselves what we couldn't do, bring their country down.

mviale

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Re: Will the troop surge work?
« Reply #41 on: February 06, 2007, 09:50:57 PM »
Guess what, Vietnam corrected itself in 20 Years.  Iraq will too, but we need to prioritize our few dollars here at home.

State of Denial is a very good read - by woodward. I could not put it down.



You heard it here first. Davante Gardner will be a Beast this year.
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=27259

Murffieus

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Re: Will the troop surge work?
« Reply #42 on: February 09, 2007, 08:00:32 PM »
Iraq won't "correct itself" if we leave ----this is the start of a long protracted war----young Muslims are being taught all over the world to hate and kill non Muslims-----in this day and age of Nukes and WMD this is a very dangerous set of circumstances----have to continually take it to them so they don't have the opportunity for them to focus on "Satan"-----Tony Blair and GWB understand this and are willing to put their reputations on the line-----few other prominent politicians in either country get it presently----they will though at some point!

77ncaachamps

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Re: Will the troop surge work?
« Reply #43 on: February 11, 2007, 12:34:54 PM »
I think you are correct in that Iraq is uniquely different from Vietnam in the context of the region it is in (including religion, neighboring countries' influence, etc.).

But I beg the question...are we the policemen of the world, AGAIN? And at whose expense...ours?

I just clipped this from a recent Washington Post article:
Bush, citing the need for fiscal responsibility, proposed reducing by $101 billion over five years the spending growth of the two health programs, which serve 93 million people and will cost the government $564 billion this year. One of his most controversial ideas is to charge wealthier seniors higher Medicare premiums for the second time in the program's 41-year history.

When did FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY ever enter his mind when continuing to lobby for money for the Iraq War?

Isn't the last sentence seen as a "tax" on the wealthy - something the GOP does not stand for?

More importantly, isn't he shirking from his duty to protect the welfare of the people of this great country by cutting the programs that benefit them the most...especially to the largest aging group thie country has seen...the same working group that made this country realize more power and greatness?
SS Marquette

Murffieus

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Re: Will the troop surge work?
« Reply #44 on: February 13, 2007, 08:00:55 PM »
Well if not us (being polieman of the world) then who?

The iraq war comes under the title of "non reoccuring expense" anotherwords at some point the war will end----but spending on entitlements will continue at anaccelerating rate. Fighting wars are necessary evils!

I think wealthier people should pay more for Medicare-----right now everyone pays around $90 per month for Medicare-----should be a means test where a $200,000 income should pay say $200/month and say a $20,000 income $50/month. Like it or not----this is the way it will be in a few years!

If we don't defend the country against terrorism-----there won't be any "programs to protect"!

Wheelio45usp

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Re: Will the troop surge work?
« Reply #45 on: February 15, 2007, 08:12:48 PM »
I was an undergrad (Senior) when we went into Iraq the first time.  Since then I've been in the region many times; what you all need to understand is underlying goal of our enemies - the establishment of a caliphate that endorses and gives venue for the unification of those who wish to practice, export and impose radical Islamic ideals through rhetoric and violence.

Save your idealistic rants, untie the hands of the military and intelligence communities and let us fight this war how it needs to be fought - without asking permission from nations who harbor our enemy, without nonbinding resolutions that diminish the efforts of our Intelligence Officers, Soldiers, Sailors and Marines and certainly not on CNN.

I wish I could tell you all how many times we have saved your butts back in the US by doing what we do - every day.  I've lost many friends in this battle; from 9/11 to Kabul to Najaf to Tora Bora and many other places most of you will hopefully never see - but this is literally the fight of our lives...

Warriors Forever!

77ncaachamps

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Re: Will the troop surge work?
« Reply #46 on: February 17, 2007, 10:34:47 AM »
I was an undergrad (Senior) when we went into Iraq the first time.  Since then I've been in the region many times; what you all need to understand is underlying goal of our enemies - the establishment of a caliphate that endorses and gives venue for the unification of those who wish to practice, export and impose radical Islamic ideals through rhetoric and violence.

Save your idealistic rants, untie the hands of the military and intelligence communities and let us fight this war how it needs to be fought - without asking permission from nations who harbor our enemy, without nonbinding resolutions that diminish the efforts of our Intelligence Officers, Soldiers, Sailors and Marines and certainly not on CNN.

I wish I could tell you all how many times we have saved your butts back in the US by doing what we do - every day.  I've lost many friends in this battle; from 9/11 to Kabul to Najaf to Tora Bora and many other places most of you will hopefully never see - but this is literally the fight of our lives...

Warriors Forever!

Very passionate. I see much of your points.

Remember that war, much like the American Revolutionary War, Civil War, and the World Wars, is not just a war of "necessity" (perceived, as some skeptics may put it), but also a war of the hearts and minds.

It sounds hokey, but:
- our forefathers had to quell dissension among the ranks at home for some questioned the rebellion
- Lincoln had to reassure a nation that we were still a nation not to be divided
- Americans had to see the bigger picture of why America needed to emerge from the shadows of distancing themselves from the WWI and II.

The first time you went, they probably told you that you're fighting to get Saddam out. The next time you went, they probably told you you're fighting to get the insurgents out. The time after that, they probably told you you're fighting to defend American and Iraqi lives. What's the next reason?

I have a buddy who's an MU alum and a marine. He's been there three times including Afghanistan. From my discussions with him and his wife (also an MU alum), I can only imagine how hard it is on the military families. Personally, I want to give you the things that will help you win this war, but if it calls upon providing the military and certain offices of the government with total and complete power and control, then I must say no. We were a country that fought against that kind of tyranny, and must always remember that.

Idealism is what I preach to my students, yet realism is what I try to steep them in. "In a perfect world" scenarios are not REAL, but for kids who are going to be our future leaders, it is important to discuss the ideals - for those are the same things you fight for...freedom, liberty, pursuit of happiness, tolerance, etc.

God bless and be safe.
SS Marquette

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Re: Will the troop surge work?
« Reply #47 on: March 01, 2007, 02:44:16 PM »
I would suggest that everyone watch the movie "Why We Fight" by Eugene Jarecki and read "What Went Wrong?: The Clash Between Islam and Modernity in the Middle East" by Bernard Lewis.  It is interesting that the most common reason that people give for the attecks on 9/11 is "because they hate us."  I am disappointed that I rarely see any further investigation into why a group might hate Americans.  I can think of several off-hand:

1) Blind support of Israel
Both sides are to blame in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and both have major concessions to make to each other before any peace will be established.  US policy would indicate that Israel is completely in the right and should continue on its path.  We all know about Palestinian suicide bombings but I would bet you have never head of the Massacre at Deir Yassin or the essentially apartheid laws governing Palestinians.

2) Ignorance of Social Values and Structure
Trying to set up a secular government in a predominantly Muslim country is quite a feat just look at how Saddam had to run it to stay in power.  Muslim culture has historically had no place for secular laws because all they needed was the holy law contained in the Koran.  In case everyone did not know this already Iraq is predominantly Shiite.  Under Saddam the Sunni minority held power and repressed the Shiites.  Iraqi Shiites are now taking over control through the democratic system due to their larger numbers.  A large portion of the civil war is the result of this power shift with Al Queda, a Sunni organization, fighting Shiite insurgents.  So it will take many years for this shift to correct itself and the reality is that it probably never will because similiar Sunni-Shiite conflicts have been simmering for centuries.  Our decision to insert a democratic nation would be perceived as rather obtuse and the correct government would be one similiar to Lebanon (previously to its destabilization of course) that would legislate power sharing between Sunni and Shiites.

In the end the troop surge may or may not solve the current problems in Iraq (I don't think it will) but it most certainly will not solve the myriad of problems that we are currently encountering in the Middle East. 

And to you Augoman
Let me remind you that thousands of Iranians risked arrest by marching in Tehran Iran on Sept 12, 2001 holding candles and chanting "Down With Terrorism." 

In addition, there may be no practical reason to expend resources on studying neutrinos but most scientific breakthroughs do not occur linearly so it is ridiculous to say that certain experiments aren't relevant to you.  I would bet you would have said that same thing about investigating advances in magnetrons (FYI you wouldn't have a microwave then).

Murffieus

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Re: Will the troop surge work?
« Reply #48 on: March 01, 2007, 10:15:59 PM »
You are correct that our support of Isreal is THE reason why we aren't popular everywhere in the Mid East-----but that's not going to change----too much of a Jewish lobby here-----and morally it shouldn't change as the jews have as much right to live in the mid east s the Arabs annd Persians do-----as the history of the jewish people is just as strong in that area-----therefore they deserve a piece of it-------and it's not even a wealthy area (no oil).

Where I believe you error is when you say "blind" support-----not the case as various US presidents have tried to carve out a peace settlement giving the Palestinians their own state-----but the radical elements of Islam prevail and it doesn't happen. The USA has leaned on the Israeli's to exit Gaza and to stop expanding their area and they have responded-----but instead of quelling the violence----the pullback by the Israeli's has accelerated it.

We as a nation have no quarrel with Islam-----but it's Radical Islam that we are confronting------and in the final analysis the only thing that will eliminate the threat of Radical Islam is to eliminate the poverty in that area (too much hopelessness)-----and the only way to do that is to set up democratic institutions and a democratic society. It works in Lebanon (Christians, crapes, and sunnis) -----were it not for Hezbullah (radical islam). We're trying to do that in Iraq----however many mistakes have been made.

IMO the troop surge will work to an extent----but if it's going to have more than a temporary impact, its going to requirw our presense for a long time!