Fire Buzz Williams

[Tribby]

what about jimmy butlers play shows you that came from one year of coaching? he has shown an uncanny ability to snag offensive rebounds, and 90 percent of his play and contribution are built off that. did buzz teach him how to get 10 offensive boards againt syracuse? no.

your comment about matthews does more to prove my point. buzzs coaching styler is laissez faire, and he relies on his players being, in fact, very very good. maybe crean restricted matthews too much, but he produced the same result with one less year of playing experience for mcneal, james, wes, and lazar. u can't say that matthews would not have had this season with another coach, there is no way to know that. by all accounts, matthews came back much stronger and with a better stroke. it doesn't take a genius to let him shoot. take buzzs coaching style and put it on a team without the caliber of players mu has and u have a riot on this board.

+100000000000000000000

[bma725]

I think the stats on senior night said it all. This class produced the leading scorer, #1 all time in steals, #1 all time in FG made, #1 all time in free throws made, #2 all time in assists, #3 all time scorer...

This class is far and away the best class in Marquette history. They rewrote the record books! Even if they didn't come in as the most highly touted, they easily became the best.

How's that for history?

Much of that comes from the fact that these guys got to play four years, while MU's other great players didn't, and many of MU's great players were good enough to leave early for the NBA.  These guys were good, but not that good.

You really think McNeal is the best scorer in MU history just because he's #1 on the list? 

[bma725]

what about jimmy butlers play shows you that came from one year of coaching? he has shown an uncanny ability to snag offensive rebounds, and 90 percent of his play and contribution are built off that. did buzz teach him how to get 10 offensive boards againt syracuse? no.

your comment about matthews does more to prove my point. buzzs coaching styler is laissez faire, and he relies on his players being, in fact, very very good. maybe crean restricted matthews too much, but he produced the same result with one less year of playing experience for mcneal, james, wes, and lazar. u can't say that matthews would not have had this season with another coach, there is no way to know that. by all accounts, matthews came back much stronger and with a better stroke. it doesn't take a genius to let him shoot. take buzzs coaching style and put it on a team without the caliber of players mu has and u have a riot on this board.

I saw Butler play while he was at Tyler JUCO.  He was a scorer and a ballhandler, that's it.  He was not a good rebounder and he wasn't a good defender.   The player he is now is not the guy he was when he came to Marquette last summer, and that's directly related to the coaching he's received. 

Let's see, given what we know about how Matthews played the last three years, we can very easily say that what he's done this year would not have occurred under other coaches.  Further, if you think Matthews stroke is better, then you haven't been paying attention to him the last four years.   It's the same stroke he's had all along, he's just taking better shots now.  It's the same stroke he had as a freshman when he actually shot a better percentage from beyond the arc than he did this year. It's the same stroke he had at Madison Memorial as well. 

So Buzz realizes the caliber of players he has on his team and how much free reign they should get.  Interesting that you say that is bad coaching when Crean did not realize that at all in their 3 years here.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Much of that comes from the fact that these guys got to play four years, while MU's other great players didn't.  You really think McNeal is the best scorer in MU history just because he's #1 on the list? 

That's a great question, impossible to know because it gets back into comparing eras, comparing competition, etc.  The teams of the 1970's were awesome but didn't play a meat grinder conference schedule like MU does today.  Of course, on the flip side, we were so good back then that many of those players didn't start for four years and have the opportunities that DJ, JM, WM had in terms of minutes, shots, etc.

Good question, not sure what the answer is because there are many factors that would need to be considered.

[Lennys Tap]

This year's seniors are an excellent class. Unfortunately they were follwed by 3 mediocre to poor classes. In the 70's MU never needed to recruit 4 starters  in one class because we almost always got one super stud who was head and shoulders above any of the 3 amigos. (Meminger, Chones, Lucas, Tatum, Lee etc) When you bat .250 you can be good but not great. (unless you have NBA lottery talent)

Don't know where you would rate the Bo Ellis "class" as he was the only original freshman to contribute much, but an NCAA Championship, an NCAA runnerup, an Elite 8 and a 1st round loss dwarfs these seniors accomplishments.

[nyg]

"Take his coaching style and put it on a team without the caliber of players MU has and you have a riot on this board"

Can't wait for 365 days from now.  

[Pakuni]

Much of that comes from the fact that these guys got to play four years, while MU's other great players didn't, and many of MU's great players were good enough to leave early for the NBA.  These guys were good, but not that good.

You really think McNeal is the best scorer in MU history just because he's #1 on the list? 

You nailed it.
Not to take anything away from this group's accomplishments, but the reason they lead in so many cumulative categories is because they've played so many games. And the primary reason they've played so many games - along with the fact the season is longer these days - is that the cupard was bare when they arrived on campus and they had  to play so many games.
It was an excellent class, but not the best in school history. Maybe on the back end of the top five, at best.

[THEGYMBAR]

Lenny---You are right on. Any recruiting class from 68-77 had better overall team careers. This class is great in many ways to me, but not as a great basketball class. Senior night used to have the following stated:

1. "This group was ranked in the top 10 57 weeks during their careers."
2. "Second only to UCLA for wins during their four year careers."
3. "95-17 career record."

These seniors have great individual stats and no NCAA resume to be considered a real great class. Bo Ellis by himself is better player than these three combined if you judge on wins, which I happen to believe is most important thing. As you stated Bo was in two championship games and was robbed in '76 of maybe making a third by selection committee.

[Pakuni]

pakuni, stop googling for one second. you are missing the point. UCONN was not the greatest team ever, but was one of the talented. I think the NBA scouts who drafted their entire team hold more merit than your opinion.

Yeah, I hate it when people go "googling" to find facts to support an argument rather than talking out of their rear.

Fact: Several other teams just in the past decade - let alone the history of college basketball - have had as many or more players drafted in the first round as the UConn team of 2005.
Fact: Every one of those teams won a championship or at least made the Final Four, a feat that UConn team never accomplished.

What's there to argue? Nobody is saying that team wasn't talent (nice straw man, though). But to claim it was one of the greatest of all time? On the basis of what?
It's delusional. They weren't even the best team that year, much less one of the best all time.

the biggest joke is people like yourself claiming that this year has met expectations, and possibly exceeded them. what have we done?

Actually, I never said that.
However, up to the point DJ went down it would be an accurate statement. It's certainly not a stretch to say MU is sitting at 25-6, 14-4 right now with DJ healthy, with a top four seed in both the conference tourney and NCAA tourney coming. It's assinine to say this team underachieved. They were doing better than expected when DJ went down and finished, despite his injury, about where they were projected by most of the fans here, as well as in the Big East pre-season poll.

Where are all these draft projections that have Lazar as an NBA player? He's a great college player, but way too muich of a tweener at the next level. Close your eyes and imagine him being asked to guard any three in the NBA.

[Tribby]

Close your eyes and imagine him being asked to guard any three in the NBA.

When did they start playing defense in the NBA? 

[Lennys Tap]

When did they start playing defense in the NBA? 





The best defense anywhere on the planet is played in the NBA. Not in all 82 games or by every team, but anyone who has ever watched teams like the Celtics and San Antonio in the playoffs knows this.

[CTWarrior]

I saw Butler play while he was at Tyler JUCO.  He was a scorer and a ballhandler, that's it.  He was not a good rebounder and he wasn't a good defender.   The player he is now is not the guy he was when he came to Marquette last summer, and that's directly related to the coaching he's received. 

I'm curious, BMA.  What kind of player was Fulce at Tyler?  Would you have thought he was better than Butler?  Did you think he'd be productive at MU right away?

[CTWarrior]

These seniors have great individual stats and no NCAA resume to be considered a real great class. Bo Ellis by himself is better player than these three combined if you judge on wins, which I happen to believe is most important thing. As you stated Bo was in two championship games and was robbed in '76 of maybe making a third by selection committee.

I disagree a little bit.  Bo Ellis had great guards when he played, very balanced teams.  It is not the fault of these three guards that they were never given an average, let alone good, big man to play with.  As good as he was, I don't think Bo makes any Final Fours if the PG was only as good a PG as Burke is a C.  I don't think Butch Lee makes a final four if he doesn't have the great froncourt.

If you gave these guys good interior players and they never won anything, then I would agree with you.  I would take Ellis' career over any of these guys because of the team success you mentioned, but he got a lot more help from his teammates.

[bma725]

I'm curious, BMA.  What kind of player was Fulce at Tyler?  Would you have thought he was better than Butler?  Did you think he'd be productive at MU right away?

Yes, I would have thought he was better than Butler and I think anyone who watched them play last year would have thought the same thing.  Not that Butler looked bad, but Fulce just looked very good.  I thought he'd be the impact player in this class.

Offensively he was very good.  He had great leaping ability, which allowed him to play in the post against guys that were bigger than him and still be effective.  Nice turnaround J, jumphook and other post moves that would allow him to be a 4.  He also had a nice stroke and spent more time on the perimeter than Butler...and he hit a higher percentage out there as well.

What stood out was his ability to get rebounds, not just because he's long armed, but because he jumped like he was on a pogo stick.  Maybe not the highest jumper in the game, but he could come down and go right back up very quickly.  He seemed to have a knack for knowing which way the ball would bounce, and he was able to grab it even if the other guy had better position.

It seemed like he was the most ready of the recruits coming in, at least offensively.  Defensively he didn't look great but he wasn't terrible either.  Tyler spent most of their time in a zone that made it hard to tell how good they were. 

I thought he had the opportunity to be a big contributor this year, and I think the comments by Rosiak watching the first practices show that as well.  But with the injury, who knows.

[jaygall31]

Jerel used to be, James was our best defender all year.

[Chicos' Buzz Scandal Countdown]

I apologize for having expectations this season. You know who else thought we were final four contenders for much of the year, ESPN analysts like Bob Knight. They must have been crazy too.

love the move of linking your reputation for sanity with Bob Knight's

[Coleman]

While in general I don't have a problem with people calling out those on the boards who make idiotic statements like "Fire Buzz Williams," why bring up something 4 years old?

[MU B2002]

While in general I don't have a problem with people calling out those on the boards who make idiotic statements like "Fire Buzz Williams," why bring up something 4 years old?

Because Marquette Madness if 186 days 10 hours 4 minutes and 28 seconds away.

[muarmy81]

When we were 9-1, I was saying Buzz is an awful coach and should be fired. Obviously, I caught a lot of flack for that then.

While I wish I had been proven wrong for the sake of my alma mater, at least I get to say I told you so.

heh.  It is kind of funny to revisit some of these posts during the "down" time of MU basketball.  I especially like this guy's reply.

Of course none of these guys except for Skianth16 seem to be active anymore, typical.

[Chicos' Buzz Scandal Countdown]

While in general I don't have a problem with people calling out those on the boards who make idiotic statements like "Fire Buzz Williams," why bring up something 4 years old?

because I'm a nostalgic guy on this 5th anniversary of Buzz's hiring

[Coleman]

heh.  It is kind of funny to revisit some of these posts during the "down" time of MU basketball.  I especially like this guy's reply.

Of course none of these guys except for Skianth16 seem to be active anymore, typical.

Isn't Tribby the account for the Marquette Tribune? If so that's pretty despicable...

[jesmu84]

i miss BMA...

[jesmu84]

Hayward is not an NBA caliber player.  Too small for the PF position, to slow for any other position.  James is not an NBA caliber player unless he improves his shooting a lot.  Matthews is a borderline 2nd round pick that is going to require work to stick in the NBA.  Again you're severely overrating the talent on this team.

Further, if you consider Matthews an NBA player, you have to give credit for that to Buzz.  He was no where near an NBA caliber player under Crean, it would have been a joke to consider him one.  As Wesley said, Buzz unleashed him and turned him into someone who is under consideration now.  He would not have been that without him.

Prophetic

[avid1010]

while fun to laugh at some of those posts, you can also look at some of the criticism and concerns, and see where buzz has really improved as a coach.  we are lucky to have someone who seems to have an arrogance about him in the right areas (chip on the shoulder) and be willing to learn/listen in areas where he needs improvement. 

[MU B2002]

i miss BMA...

+725