Bench is awful

[Marquette_g]

We will certainly take our lumps next year, but that doesn't mean our overall roster won't be more talented from 1-12.  

I also think that the talent coming in puts us in a good position long-term.  Next year is certainly going to be a struggle, but it is the classic rebuilding year losing 4 srs.

I like the future of this program and believe we should look more than one season ahead.  I'm sure this board will be obnoxious and filled with doom-sayers next year.

[Badgerhater920]

We will certainly take our lumps next year, but that doesn't mean our overall roster won't be more talented from 1-12.  

I also think that the talent coming in puts us in a good position long-term.  Next year is certainly going to be a struggle, but it is the classic rebuilding year losing 4 srs.

I like the future of this program and believe we should look more than one season ahead.  I'm sure this board will be obnoxious and filled with doom-sayers next year.

I'm very excited for next year - we will be incredibly young , deep and talented. Also, we'll be a lot bigger. Every game will be an adventure with next year's squad and I think the next 4 years are going to be quite fun for fans of this program.

[ErickJD08]

I'm very excited for next year - we will be incredibly young , deep and talented. Also, we'll be a lot bigger. Every game will be an adventure with next year's squad and I think the next 4 years are going to be quite fun for fans of this program.

I hope we look like a Syracuse from last season.  Young talent that got better as the season moved on.   

[Norm]

While we will definitely miss McNeal, Matthews, James and Burke next year, the drop off does not have to be as bad as some think. Coming out of high school, the Three Amigos had the following ranking from the Recruiting Services Consensus Index (RSCI):

#36 Dominic James
#57 Jerel McNeal
#61 Wes Matthews

Here was the roster their freshman year, with points per game:

Dominic James FR - 15.3 PPG, 5.4 APG, 4.5 RPG, .431 FG%, .301 3FG%, 32.5 MPG
Jerel McNeal FR - 11.1 PPG, 2.7 APG, 4.5 RPG, .442 FG%, .283 3FG%, 27.5 MPG
Wes Matthews FR - 9.0 PPG, 2.2 APG, 4.0 RPG, .399 FG%, .438 3FG%, 24.9 MPG
Dwight Burke FR - 0.8 PPG, 0.1 APG, 0.8 RPG, .410 FG%, .000 3FG%, 5.3 MPG
Matt Mortenson FR - DNP - Redshirt
Dan Fitzgerald SO - 5.3 PPG, 1.6 APG, 2.4 RPG, .479 FG%, .405 3FG%, 19.9 MPG
Ousmane Barro SO - 4.4 PPG, 0.4 APG, 2.8 RPG, .644 FG%, .000 3FG%, 13.5 MPG
Ryan Amoroso SO - 5.6 PPG, 0.5 APG, 4.0 RPG, .400 FG%, .320 3FG%, 15.0 MPG
Mike Kinsella JR - 1.2 PPG, 0.2 APG, 0.7 RPG, .467 FG%, .000 3FG%, 6.1 MPG
Jamil Lott JR - 3.1 PPG, 0.3 APG, 2.2 RPG, .527 FG%, .000 3FG%, 11.0 MPG
Steve Novak SR - 17.5 PPG, 1.3 APG, 5.9 RPG, .477 FG%, .467 3FG%, 33.8 MPG
Joe Chapman SR - 6.0 PPG, 1.5 APG, 2.5 RPG, .435 FG%, .396 3FG%, 22.5 MPG
Chris Grimm SR - 1.0 PPG, 0.2 APG, 1.5 RPG, .688 FG%, .000 3FG%, 7.8 PPG

This team finished 20-11 overall and 10-6 in the Big East and lost to Alabama in the 1st Round of the NCAAs. James, McNeal and Novak started every game, Chapman started 16, Matthews 14, Barro 14, Lott 7, Amoroso 5, Fitzgerald, Kinsella and Grimm 2 each.

Next year, we have the following incoming freshmen ranked by RSCI (thus far):

#39 Junior Cadougan
#62 Erik Williams
#68 Jeronne Maymon

MU also has Dwight Bucyks and Brett Rosboro coming in. Of the players returning next year, here are their statistics:

Lazar Hayward JR - 16.0 PPG, 1.3 APG, 8.6 RPG, .480 FG%, .359 3FG%, 30.6 MPG
Maurice Acker JR - 2.1 PPG, 1.6 APG, 1.2 RPG, .250 FG%, .222 3FG%, 12.1 MPG
David Cubillan JR - 1.7 PPG, 0.8 APG, 0.7 RPG, .273 FG%, .300 3FG%, 9.5 MPG
Jimmy Butler SO - 4.4 PPG, 0.6 APG, 3.1 RPG, .483 FG%, .000 3FG%, 16.7 MPG
Patrick Hazel SO - 2.3 PPG, 0.0 APG, 2.1 RPG, .704 FG%, .000 3FG%, 12.0 MPG
Joseph Fulce SO - 2.1 PPG, 0.4 APG, 1.4 RPG, .500 FG%, .000 3FG%, 6.6 MPG
Liam McMorrow SO - DNP-Transfer
Chris Otule FR - 1.8 PPG, 0.0 APG, 1.5 RPG, .364 FG%, .000 3FG%, 8.7 MPG

Hayward has started all 25 games, Butler has played in all 25 games, Acker has played in 24, Cubillan 22, Hazel 21, Fulce 7, Otule 5 (Frozena has played in 9 games).

While Hayward will not be the outside, 3-point threat that Novak was that opened up space for James, McNeal and Matthews their freshman year, he is fairly comparable to Novak in terms of offensive production. Novak averaged 13.5 points his Junior year and had scored 1,026 points after 3 years. So far this year, Hayward is averaging 16.0 points and has already scored 1,073 points in his MU career. I also think Butler could equal if not surpass Chapman's contribution that year.

It will be interesting to see if Buzz turns over the keys to the program to Cadougan, Williams and Maymon next year like Crean did in the Three Amigos freshman year (and yes, I know they are not all 3 guards like the Three Amigos). We don't know how next year will turn out, but I can see us coming close to the 2005-2006 squad if everything works out.

[ErickJD08]

I don't think some people realize that the three Amigos are a special crew.  If every four star player developed and played like them, there would be higher quality of play all around the country.  The truth is that all four stars are not like them.  Some of them bust.  Alot of them do not have the work ethic that they do.  Buycks... Look at what Butler is doing.  It is taking him about 20 games to get comfortable.  Roseboro is a massive question mark.  Morrow is a massive question mark.  Otule has ALOT of developing to do.  I don't imagine Hazel, Acker, and Cubes will get much better.  They are BE bench subs.  I like Butler but will he make that step?  Could he turn into a player than we can count on to make plays?  MAYBE.  Will Fulce get better, because I guess he isn't good enough to play now?  Maybe.

For people who think it will be fine next season based on 3 four star players coming in, Georgetown is 13 and 10, 4 and 8 in BE play.  I dare you to count the stars on their team. (Monroe 5, Summers 5, Freeman 5, Wright 4, Clark 4, Sims 4)   

The point is that if not making the tourney will make you upset next season, there is a good chance you will be upset.  In my book, I am expecting the worst.  Buzz gets a free pass next year because losing the three amigos is a huge blow.  IF we don't make the tourney in 2011, then I will start complaining about Buzz (I am assuming solid recruiting but so far so good)

[Tugg Speedman]

I'm very excited for next year - we will be incredibly young , deep and talented. Also, we'll be a lot bigger. Every game will be an adventure with next year's squad and I think the next 4 years are going to be quite fun for fans of this program.

And what if we look like G-Town from this year.  Recall the recruited the number one play in the country (Monroe) and have two other McDonald's AA.

Or what if we look like Rutgers this year.  They have a McDonald's AA in Rosario.

Fact is the three amigos were way better than advertised.  I hope the same can be said of next year's class.  But to think they are going to repeat is wishful thinking right now.

Unless the recruiting class changes, MU goes 6-12 or 7-11 in the BE.  16 and 14ish overall.

[MR.HAYWARD]

I agree with Norm,  That is the key thing with talent...talented players win.  I also disagree witht he comments that these players were bteer than advertised coming in.  No not really.  Top 50 or 75 talent tends to be really good.  We have 4 4 star recruits on our team right now and they have all scored over 1000 points.  We have a number of 1 and 2 star players and they are not fairng as well.  Rankings are not the end all but they tend to be pretty good measuirng sticks.  Take the top 50 -75 players from that recruitng class and for the most part those players have fared pretty damn well in college ball.  Now many of them did not walk into starting situtaions do to the fact that MU have virtually zero talent wehn the big 3 arrived.  But for the most part top 75 talent performs...lazar is an example of that as are the other top 75 type players Mu has sined over the past decade in Wade, Blankson, Mason, Diener, Novak and the 4 we currently have.  Those players generally perform.
One thing thought to consider is the Big 3 were all guards and guards are generally more ready to perform as freshman, they do not have as many issues of size and strentgh that big men can tend to have. I think Mu can be good next year but guys like Myamon and Williams and Roseboro are more f orwards than guards.  The keys to our ruccess next year are how well our guards perform.  If Junior steps in and is ready to play lal a Tony Miller or a Dj we will be Ok at the point with Acker backing it up.  The biggest key, I think to next year is Buycks.  Is he ready to step in and play on both ends of the court like a legit big East 2?  If he can shoot 44% or better and go for 13-14 points a game or bter and defend at a good rate we will be OK.  Those two plus Butler, Hayward, and a combination of the new and old players and we should be fine maybe 8-10 in the BE 16-17-18 wins.  I think it would take a realspecial year to get a tourney bid as the top teams will still be good and the bottom teams ala a Rutgers and SH will only be better.  Not a great year by MU standards but a solid rebuilding year with good potential for the year after.   

[Big Papi]

WOW... what a statement...  You are kinda delusional.  One proven scorer in Hayward and about 3 proven BE bench players (Hazel, Cubes, Acker).  By thinking we will be more deep next season, you are assuming they every single player (Bulter, Otule, and Fulce)will get better next season.  Also, every single recruit is as good or better than advertised and they will not play like freshmen. 

Now, if you think "Deep" means we have a ton of interchangeable parts.  Yes, we will be deep because all the players will be pretty interchangeable, meaning they will be of similar caliber.  If you think "Deep" is having good players surrounded by players who can be productive when called upon (my definition), no way in hell we are deeper.  We will not have a deep team til 2011 at the earliest(2009 class junior year).

I don't know what to tell you man.  Now Im delusional.  Wow.  Throw more insults out why dont you.  You are the one with the reading comprehension problem as others on this board seem to get it so I will spell it out for you one more time.

1.  This topic is about our awful bench.
2.  Our starting 5 next year will not be anywhere close to this years starting 5.
3.  Buzz has a great recruiting class coming in with all of them considered Big East talent
4.  Fulce and Otule should be healthy next year and participating fully preseason, pre-conference and during the conference season
5.  We should have an additional player available next year since McMorrow will be eligible to play
6.  We should not have a situation where a player leaves right before the season starts
7.  Next years bench from 6-13 will be bettter and deeper than this years bench.

[Norm]

Just as an FYI, here are the career points for all of MU's top 100 recruits since 2000 (as ranked by RSCI):

2000 - #85 Scott Merritt, 6'9" F: 1,049 points
2001 - #40 Travis Diener, 6'1" G: 1,691 points
2002 - #57 Steve Novak, 6'9" F: 1,567 points
2003 - #71 Dameon Mason, 6'5" G: Transferred to LSU
2005 - #36 Dominic James, 6'0" G: 1,727 points
2005 - #57 Jerel McNeal, 6'2" G: 1,796 points
2005 - #61 Wes Matthews, 6'3" G: 1,491 points
2007 - #91 Trevor Mbakwe, 6'8" F: Transferred to Miami Dade JC (Minnesota)

Also ranked by several recruiting services and considerd 4-star recruits:

2000 - Dwyane Wade, 6'5" G: 1,281 points (in two years)
2006 - Lazar Hayward, 6'6" F: 1,073 points

If the three incoming top 100 guys stay at MU and none transfer, then the future may bode well, especially if Buzz brings in a couple more top 100 recruits the following seasons. No guarantees for next year, but it at least looks promising.

[NCMUFan]

Bench being awful?  Maybe the BEAST should start a second tier conference like Junior Varsity in HS to see how our bench is to everyone elses.

In regards to next years team, I reserve all judgement till these folks are playing games.  Just as the three amigos, Novak and Chapman surprised everyone, I believe with Hayward, Butler and the rest of our current bench and our new recruits we can turn some heads. 

[4everwarriors]

We have a bench?

[MR.HAYWARD]

Thanks for backing up my post NOrm those #'s really are telling.  Again rankings are not every thing but top 100 kids usually live up to their hype.  So we should be in good shape, again i beleive our success next year really bodes on how ready Junior and Dwight are from day 1.  Repuatation wise they are ready lets hope they truly are.  Lots of potential for good things in the future even if we take a step back next year.

[romey]

  

The point is that if not making the tourney will make you upset next season, there is a good chance you will be upset.  In my book, I am expecting the worst.  Buzz gets a free pass next year because losing the three amigos is a huge blow.  IF we don't make the tourney in 2011, then I will start complaining about Buzz (I am assuming solid recruiting but so far so good)
[/quote]
Then go ahead and expect the worse.  just because others expect better than that doesn't make them delusional.

[MR.HAYWARD]

well i fully expect us to miss the tournament next year but one needs to keep it all in context.  Buzz in herited a nightmare in the context of this years team has only 4-5 BE caliber players.  Crean was a god becuase he went .500 in his first 2 years with a noreturning talent to hear the Crean lovers tell the tale.  Well Buzz is in a similar hole.  I do not expect us to go to the NCAA but i intend to enjoy the ride of watching our dynamite young players mature throught the courese of the year.  I expect us to lose some game we probably shouldent yet be athletic and talented enought to possibly win some we shouldent making for a fun ride.  2011 I think we will agains compete for an NCAA birth and the year after be on a full roll as a prgram now that we finally have a real coach and a real recruiter.