Colleges will fail?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Private high schools are beginning to struggle as well. A parent paying $10-15K for high school might opt to send child to public school and save the private school tuition for college. All I can say is that we have two kids in college and two in private high school currently and plenty of discussions are going on every week at our house on this topic.

I stated on this site months ago that this would ultimately happen. How many kids went to private colleges the past 10 years on grandparents money or home equity money? Both of those cash options are on the back burner for most people. The loss of wealth in America that past year will knock schools out of action. The playing fields are being leveled and the strong will be around for a long time.

Absolutely true.  My wife and I went to Catholic schools from 1st grade through high school (and I also went to MU).

Our kids go to public elementary schools and will all the way through high school.  What used to be $35 a month when we were kids for Catholic grade school is much higher now.  Our Catholic high schools was $900 a year when I started in 1983.  Last year it was $6182.

But the thing is, if they didn't charge that much, they wouldn't get the quality teachers / professors and the education wouldn't be worth it.  Alas, the problem.

[ChicosBailBonds]

You (and hilltopper) also touched on the whole issue of whether or not MU is really fulfilling its mission if all these kids are graduating with such debt.

One of the problem I have with higher education today is the whole obsession with rankings and the "exclusivity" issue that makes up one of the components.  This encourages massive applications and high sticker prices...because the higher the price, the more valuable it is right?

Yet I doubt MU gives you a better education now than it did 25 years ago when I was there - despite its move up the ranks.

One thing I most certainly wouldn't do.....send my child to a private school if they are going into something like teaching.  He/she can get the same education, or close to it, at the public college without the debt coming out.

I never understood why someone went to Harvard to become a teach when they could have gone to in-state.

That has to be factored into the equation, in my opinion. 

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

What's the alternative?  If you want quality professors, you need to pay them.  If you want quality programs, you need to support them (technology, buildings, infrastructure, etc).  Private schools do not get the same benefits that public schools do, as such the costs are there.

The alternative is to go to a school that doesn't cost $40,000. Had I had any idea I'd have the loans I have now, there is no way I'd waste my time on a Marquette education. Definitely not worth it.

Do you actually think every dime of that $40,000 a year per student is going to good use? Maybe it's been awhile since you've seen how bloated the bureaucracy and frills for the administration is at Marquette.

[GGGG]

One thing I most certainly wouldn't do.....send my child to a private school if they are going into something like teaching.  He/she can get the same education, or close to it, at the public college without the debt coming out.

I know a girl from the town I live in who is going to Edgewood to major in elementary education.  Because of the quality of the program, she is likely going to end up in a parochial school in the Madison area versus a public school.  So she will end up paying more for a college education, and getting a lower paying job, than if she went to Eau Claire or Whitewater.

[ChicosBailBonds]

The alternative is to go to a school that doesn't cost $40,000. Had I had any idea I'd have the loans I have now, there is no way I'd waste my time on a Marquette education. Definitely not worth it.

Do you actually think every dime of that $40,000 a year per student is going to good use? Maybe it's been awhile since you've seen how bloated the bureaucracy and frills for the administration is at Marquette.

That's actually my point.  I think it depends on what your major is, etc.  If you're just going to get a run of the mill degree, I would not go to MU or any private college anymore.  In fact, if I were MU, I'd get out of that business.  I'd specialize in highly unique majors that are lucrative on the back end.  I realize this is against the "Jesuit mission", but I just don't know why someone would attend a private school for a degree that yields a $35K a year job.

[GGGG]

That's actually my point.  I think it depends on what your major is, etc.  If you're just going to get a run of the mill degree, I would not go to MU or any private college anymore.  In fact, if I were MU, I'd get out of that business.  I'd specialize in highly unique majors that are lucrative on the back end.  I realize this is against the "Jesuit mission", but I just don't know why someone would attend a private school for a degree that yields a $35K a year job.

So you want Marquette to become another MSOE?

[reinko]

That's actually my point.  I think it depends on what your major is, etc.  If you're just going to get a run of the mill degree, I would not go to MU or any private college anymore.  In fact, if I were MU, I'd get out of that business.  I'd specialize in highly unique majors that are lucrative on the back end.  I realize this is against the "Jesuit mission", but I just don't know why someone would attend a private school for a degree that yields a $35K a year job.

Even though I agree with you on most things Marquette-related, I think you are way off, and this someone who graduated with a degree in Secondary Ed. from Marquette in 2002.  I think first you are unintentially demeaning the education field and "other" 35K year jobs, that you can educated at your run of the mill state school.  What about social workers and guidance counselors?  The fact is to help fix our education system we need more people from Marquette, and the Ivies, USC, Northwestern, and other great schools to enter into education. 

As a former educator, trust me know I know the bad things.  I also know how teacher unions are ruining the system, we get summers off, blah blah blah.  The ones just waiting for their retirement to kick in.  But I have also seen the magnificent ones who truly impact the lives of young people.

And of course those that want to pursue a masters or PhD in education to become principals, superintendents, college professors.  Obviously where they went to undergrad, and how well they fared there, will have an impact on what kind of programs they can get into later in life.

And there are actually a ton of programs to help those young people with debt that want to teach in low-income/high need area.

~The TEACH Grant, $4,000 a year undergrad grant from the Fed for those that commit to teaching 4 years in a low income neighborhood in a high need field (math, science, foreign language  http://studentaid.ed.gov/students/attachments/siteresources/4807Teach_FactSheet_v3.pdf

~The ACE Program, a two year service commitment program run out of ND where you earn your masters of education for free, and get two AmeriCorps Education service awards totally nearly $10,000  http://ace.nd.edu/

~And many states offer loan forgiveness programs for a commitment to teach in one of their high need schools  http://www.aft.org/tools4teachers/loan-forgiveness.htm

[mu_hilltopper]

Welll .. I'm not sure Chicos was trying to demean educators .. at worst he used a poor choice of words to describe techincal/scientific/business degrees versus liberal arts types.

That being said .. my wife got her undergrad at MU, masters at UWM in education, and has had a few student teachers under her wing.  She's said on a number of occasions, that non-MU educators .. were always a step behind, and never impressed her.

So .. while it may not make financial sense to go to MU for your educational degree, it sure makes sense from a societal standpoint.

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

That's actually my point.  I think it depends on what your major is, etc.  If you're just going to get a run of the mill degree, I would not go to MU or any private college anymore.  In fact, if I were MU, I'd get out of that business.  I'd specialize in highly unique majors that are lucrative on the back end.  I realize this is against the "Jesuit mission", but I just don't know why someone would attend a private school for a degree that yields a $35K a year job.

I think that's an excellent point. Unfortunately, it's too much of Marquette's revenue base (the Arts and Crafts types of majors) and the University has ZERO incentive to tell A&C majors that they're wasting four years of their lives studying things from books they could just as easily get from Amazon.com and study on their own. As long as a stream of first-generation college student morons (like yours truly!) exist who are willing to study political science, the University will milk them for all they have. It's all about information costs.

Welll .. I'm not sure Chicos was trying to demean educators .. at worst he used a poor choice of words to describe techincal/scientific/business degrees versus liberal arts types.

That being said .. my wife got her undergrad at MU, masters at UWM in education, and has had a few student teachers under her wing.  She's said on a number of occasions, that non-MU educators .. were always a step behind, and never impressed her.

So .. while it may not make financial sense to go to MU for your educational degree, it sure makes sense from a societal standpoint.

Agreed with this as well. Which is what makes it slightly agonizing. The choice of college education seems to make a definitive character statement about a person (much of the time) that a person can carry as part of his personality for some time.

The importance of education is all about what is / is not value-added. Fortunately, I was smart enough to re-direct my schooling and get a graduate business degree (15% of my debts) at MU to add to a (let's be serious) near-worthless A&C undergrad (85% of my debts). Education (k-12) has been so dumbed down in America that people do not realize that part of education needs to be skills-related to be worth the opportunity costs in price and time. When all you've done since kindergarten are lit- and history-related classes (etc.) your academic world view is pretty small.

[THEGYMBAR]

While I believe colleges in general will struggle I am hopeful that the economy turns before this happens. If not, it might not be a bad thing because there are too many colleges and too many kids going to college. My middle son, who attended private school from K4-12, would have much preferred going to trade school. He and many others might have been served going a trade school.

Another note on the gentlemen noted in first post on this thread, his beliefs are fairly out there. I recently saw him on TV and he is stating this is The Greatest Depression and much worse is yet to come. While I do not completely disagree with him here is one guy hoping he is dead wrong.

By the way, the steakhouse thread is a much better read. This problem is making me tired and hungry....Butch's anyone?

[GGGG]

I think that's an excellent point. Unfortunately, it's too much of Marquette's revenue base (the Arts and Crafts types of majors) and the University has ZERO incentive to tell A&C majors that they're wasting four years of their lives studying things from books they could just as easily get from Amazon.com and study on their own. As long as a stream of first-generation college student morons (like yours truly!) exist who are willing to study political science, the University will milk them for all they have. It's all about information costs.

I'm sorry, but this is really moronic.  I am a Poly Sci major who ended up neither in politics, nor in the field that I thought I was going to enter, which was law.  However to say that I could have replicated my education simply by reading books from Amazon is ridiculous.  Those professors taught me how to think - not simply reguritate facts.  They taught me how to write.  They taught me how to work my ass off in the classroom.  Christopher Wolfe, the Constitutional Law professor, was my favorite by far.  He was hard...damn hard...but I learned a hell of a lot.  And I took his second class because of my experience in the first one.  And when I saw him on the basketball court during my senior year, he remembered my name, asked me about my post-graduate plans, etc.

And now I work in an administrative position and make six figures a year.  I wouldn't have been able to do that by simply reading books on my own.

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

I'm sorry, but this is really moronic.  I am a Poly Sci major who ended up neither in politics, nor in the field that I thought I was going to enter, which was law.  However to say that I could have replicated my education simply by reading books from Amazon is ridiculous.  Those professors taught me how to think - not simply reguritate facts.  They taught me how to write.  They taught me how to work my ass off in the classroom.  Christopher Wolfe, the Constitutional Law professor, was my favorite by far.  He was hard...damn hard...but I learned a hell of a lot.  And I took his second class because of my experience in the first one.  And when I saw him on the basketball court during my senior year, he remembered my name, asked me about my post-graduate plans, etc.

And now I work in an administrative position and make six figures a year.  I wouldn't have been able to do that by simply reading books on my own.

A wee bit defensive? So you're saying that you did political science in undergrad but don't do anything related to the field right now? That's exactly my point, "moron." You could have learned the substantive academic portion on your own, and the value-add contribution of your political science studies in academia was nil to your income. You made your way through a career either through your own intelligence regardless of your specific academic studies or through your personal connections.  What a wonderful example of the obnoxious defensiveness of people in Arts & Crafts studies, with people eager as ever to defend splurging hundreds of thousands not for value-added skills learning but for a certificate on a wall.

[reinko]

A wee bit defensive? So you're saying that you did political science in undergrad but don't do anything related to the field right now? That's exactly my point, "moron." You could have learned the substantive academic portion on your own, and the value-add contribution of your political science studies in academia was nil to your income. You made your way through a career either through your own intelligence regardless of your specific academic studies or through your personal connections.  What a wonderful example of the obnoxious defensiveness of people in Arts & Crafts studies, with people eager as ever to defend splurging hundreds of thousands not for value-added skills learning but for a certificate on a wall.

I think that's an excellent point. Unfortunately, it's too much of Marquette's revenue base (the Arts and Crafts types of majors) and the University has ZERO incentive to tell A&C majors that they're wasting four years of their lives studying things from books they could just as easily get from Amazon.com and study on their own. As long as a stream of first-generation college student morons (like yours truly!) exist who are willing to study political science, the University will milk them for all they have. It's all about information costs.

Agreed with this as well. Which is what makes it slightly agonizing. The choice of college education seems to make a definitive character statement about a person (much of the time) that a person can carry as part of his personality for some time.

The importance of education is all about what is / is not value-added. Fortunately, I was smart enough to re-direct my schooling and get a graduate business degree (15% of my debts) at MU to add to a (let's be serious) near-worthless A&C undergrad (85% of my debts). Education (k-12) has been so dumbed down in America that people do not realize that part of education needs to be skills-related to be worth the opportunity costs in price and time. When all you've done since kindergarten are lit- and history-related classes (etc.) your academic world view is pretty small.

Let's see where to begin.  According to your logic, you "were smart enough" to get a business degree to help off set your costs you poly sci degree.  What does that make me?  A poly sci/ed major who didn't supplement my education with an advanced degree.  Some kind of idiot?   

While we are on the subject, the evolution of the MBA has become a joke.  Unless you get those three letters from a top 15-20, your "value added" is greatly diminished. 

You wonder why people get defensive?  May be it's using terms like the College of Arts and Crafts.  Now, is Arts and Sciences as demanding as a hard hard science major?  It's debatable.  I knew plenty of people who dominated Organic Chem, but dreaded writing a 15 page paper on the Chilean Economy after the fall of Pinochet.

Why bother instigating these fights?  Why not have respect for people for people that are taking on debt to enter a career that may not be six figures.  Your world may be dominated how large your paycheck is, but thank God mine isn't. 

If I had to guess, based on your screen name, and your smarmy attitude.  You are about 23, have some mid-level management position at NWML, and you are still a year or two away from saving for a down payment on a condo in the 5th ward. 

Enjoy chasing the almighty dollar.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Even though I agree with you on most things Marquette-related, I think you are way off, and this someone who graduated with a degree in Secondary Ed. from Marquette in 2002.  I think first you are unintentially demeaning the education field and "other" 35K year jobs, that you can educated at your run of the mill state school.  What about social workers and guidance counselors?  The fact is to help fix our education system we need more people from Marquette, and the Ivies, USC, Northwestern, and other great schools to enter into education. 

As a former educator, trust me know I know the bad things.  I also know how teacher unions are ruining the system, we get summers off, blah blah blah.  The ones just waiting for their retirement to kick in.  But I have also seen the magnificent ones who truly impact the lives of young people.

And of course those that want to pursue a masters or PhD in education to become principals, superintendents, college professors.  Obviously where they went to undergrad, and how well they fared there, will have an impact on what kind of programs they can get into later in life.

And there are actually a ton of programs to help those young people with debt that want to teach in low-income/high need area.

~The TEACH Grant, $4,000 a year undergrad grant from the Fed for those that commit to teaching 4 years in a low income neighborhood in a high need field (math, science, foreign language  http://studentaid.ed.gov/students/attachments/siteresources/4807Teach_FactSheet_v3.pdf

~The ACE Program, a two year service commitment program run out of ND where you earn your masters of education for free, and get two AmeriCorps Education service awards totally nearly $10,000  http://ace.nd.edu/

~And many states offer loan forgiveness programs for a commitment to teach in one of their high need schools  http://www.aft.org/tools4teachers/loan-forgiveness.htm

Definitely not intentional.  As I've stated before, I have utmost respect for teachers as my mom taught for 40+ years.  My dad was a college professor at West Virginia University as a geologist. 

Teacher unions....that's another story.   


My point was that it's going to be awfully tough for me as a parent paying the bills for my kids (less than 10 years away) to go to a USC, MU, USD, etc to earn a degree which market forces have stated will not yield the return on the investment.

Maybe that's too black and white in the way to view it, but when I'm forking over the dollars and my children will be incurring the debt load that I can't cover, it's a fact of reality for us.   If my kids tell me they want to go into one of these fields, and again, absolutely nothing wrong with any of the career fields at all, that is a huge consideration in determining which schools to apply to.  I don't see how it can't be when the reality of dollars and cents are weighed into it.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I think that's an excellent point. Unfortunately, it's too much of Marquette's revenue base (the Arts and Crafts types of majors) and the University has ZERO incentive to tell A&C majors that they're wasting four years of their lives studying things from books they could just as easily get from Amazon.com and study on their own. As long as a stream of first-generation college student morons (like yours truly!) exist who are willing to study political science, the University will milk them for all they have. It's all about information costs.

Yup.  I majored in Political Science and History, too.  I know where you're coming from.  Then again, my career has had nothing to do with either majors.  I think there is a difference between majors and career paths.  Majoring in nursing seems to be a career path.  Majoring in Poli Sci isn't, in my opinion.

[GGGG]

A wee bit defensive? So you're saying that you did political science in undergrad but don't do anything related to the field right now? That's exactly my point, "moron." You could have learned the substantive academic portion on your own, and the value-add contribution of your political science studies in academia was nil to your income. You made your way through a career either through your own intelligence regardless of your specific academic studies or through your personal connections.  What a wonderful example of the obnoxious defensiveness of people in Arts & Crafts studies, with people eager as ever to defend splurging hundreds of thousands not for value-added skills learning but for a certificate on a wall.

I guess you missed the point where I said that my degree taught me how to think...and how to write.  Both of which I do on a regular basis.

Here's the deal.  I know I would be nowhere near where I am today if it weren't for the education I received.  Could I have received it elsewhere?  Probably.  However I was lucky in the my parents and grandparents had the money to allow to go wherever I wanted (within reason) and I felt MU was the best option.

It's too bad that you didn't have the same experience.

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

I guess you missed the point where I said that my degree taught me how to think...and how to write.  Both of which I do on a regular basis.

Yes, but which had nothing to do with "political science" itself! An accountant will almost certainly be judged in the workplace by the extent to which he has mastered the knowledge of accounting. Yes, Marquette has an amazing POSC Dept and Wolfe is ridiculously brilliant; I know him personally. But the content of what was learned in the classroom, as you are pointing out yourself, did not matter very much compared with the non-tangibles of learning how to think and write. Unfortunately for most CAS students / programs, even this basic benefit is not there. Especially at schools below MU's level of academic reputation.

Here's the deal.  I know I would be nowhere near where I am today if it weren't for the education I received.  Could I have received it elsewhere?  Probably.  However I was lucky in the my parents and grandparents had the money to allow to go wherever I wanted (within reason) and I felt MU was the best option.
It's too bad that you didn't have the same experience.

You were fortunate and I'm glad you recognize that. For someone like me - for the large number of students like me - who went into RIDICULOUS debt for what seems in retrospect (really, by the end of junior year) like a waste of time, the opportunity cost in terms of money and time is obscene, which is why folks like me don't look upon the experience of getting jipped for an "Arts and Crafts" academic experience with the same level of appreciation.

I should add that I have no beef with the POSC Dept (outside of that SOB Tim O'Brien, who is himself hated by virtually every POSC faculty member). If the CAS didn't require something like 16-20 completely worthless classes (language, history, philosophy etc.) because they're terrified of what would happen if students' priorities were determined by the students themselves, a degree from the CAS would be a lot more enjoyable.

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

Let's see where to begin.  According to your logic, you "were smart enough" to get a business degree to help off set your costs you poly sci degree.  What does that make me?  A poly sci/ed major who didn't supplement my education with an advanced degree.  Some kind of idiot?   

While we are on the subject, the evolution of the MBA has become a joke.  Unless you get those three letters from a top 15-20, your "value added" is greatly diminished. 

You wonder why people get defensive?  May be it's using terms like the College of Arts and Crafts.  Now, is Arts and Sciences as demanding as a hard hard science major?  It's debatable.  I knew plenty of people who dominated Organic Chem, but dreaded writing a 15 page paper on the Chilean Economy after the fall of Pinochet.

Why bother instigating these fights?  Why not have respect for people for people that are taking on debt to enter a career that may not be six figures.  Your world may be dominated how large your paycheck is, but thank God mine isn't. 

If I had to guess, based on your screen name, and your smarmy attitude.  You are about 23, have some mid-level management position at NWML, and you are still a year or two away from saving for a down payment on a condo in the 5th ward. 

Enjoy chasing the almighty dollar.

I didn't get the MBA and I agree with your assessment of the value of one.

A downpayment for a condo? I'll be paying back student loans in lieu of things that actually interest me (a house, a better car) for some time.

Also ... I can't help but add ... the reason that some Bio wizz kid fears having some Chilean paper is because being forced to do some lit or history paper is not in his interests. It should say something about the value-add (to his skill set, not necessarily intellectual curiousity) of that history class that he is eager to do something he can actually continue and pursue in one endeavor (bio stuff) and not in the other (history stuff).

And no, you weren't an idiot. Just taken for a ride like about the 30-40% of students who enroll in the CAS.

[Chili]

Warrior07 - You might be the first person I have ever seen want to call out FOB.

Edit: FOB = Father Tim O'Brien, Director of the Les Aspin Center.

[mu_hilltopper]

Fall Out Boy?
Fresh Off Boat?
F*cking Oregon Bastard?

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Yes, but which had nothing to do with "political science" itself! An accountant will almost certainly be judged in the workplace by the extent to which he has mastered the knowledge of accounting. Yes, Marquette has an amazing POSC Dept and Wolfe is ridiculously brilliant; I know him personally. But the content of what was learned in the classroom, as you are pointing out yourself, did not matter very much compared with the non-tangibles of learning how to think and write. Unfortunately for most CAS students / programs, even this basic benefit is not there. Especially at schools below MU's level of academic reputation.

You were fortunate and I'm glad you recognize that. For someone like me - for the large number of students like me - who went into RIDICULOUS debt for what seems in retrospect (really, by the end of junior year) like a waste of time, the opportunity cost in terms of money and time is obscene, which is why folks like me don't look upon the experience of getting jipped for an "Arts and Crafts" academic experience with the same level of appreciation.

I should add that I have no beef with the POSC Dept (outside of that SOB Tim O'Brien, who is himself hated by virtually every POSC faculty member). If the CAS didn't require something like 16-20 completely worthless classes (language, history, philosophy etc.) because they're terrified of what would happen if students' priorities were determined by the students themselves, a degree from the CAS would be a lot more enjoyable.

Hmmm... interesting take about education value and bang for your buck.

What about a traditional trade like becoming and electrician or a plumber?

Surely the schooling is cheaper there, and you get paid for an apprenticeship. All of their training is in their trade (value added). There isn't a lot of "cross training" in those fields.

Maybe you should have gone into a trade.

[MU B2002]

If the CAS didn't require something like 16-20 completely worthless classes (language, history, philosophy etc.)

If you felt these classes were worthless, why did you choose to remain at the university? 


And I think that many of the classes you are talking about were required of the entire university not just the College of Arts and Sciences. 

[🏀]

YIf the CAS didn't require something like 16-20 completely worthless classes (language, history, philosophy etc.) because they're terrified of what would happen if students' priorities were determined by the students themselves, a degree from the CAS would be a lot more enjoyable.

Welcome to every major and college that has core studies. There are required so you can have an intelligent level capable of representing the university, and not be an apparent idiot when you're in the real world.

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

If you felt these classes were worthless, why did you choose to remain at the university? 


And I think that many of the classes you are talking about were required of the entire university not just the College of Arts and Sciences. 

You mean why did I stay in the College of Arts and Crafts? Unfortunately, a student is more or less told that he has to take most of those worthless classes before he even takes a single class in his major. For two of my undergrad majors, I didn't take a single class in the majors until my sophomore year. I didn't even begin to realize that I should have been in another college (ie COB) until late soph year.

And no, sorry, every other college does not require you to take the same number of obnoxious, worthless classes as the CAS. 4 language (for people who have no HS language history), 4 philosophy ... just a joke.

[GGGG]

You mean why did I stay in the College of Arts and Crafts? Unfortunately, a student is more or less told that he has to take most of those worthless classes before he even takes a single class in his major. For two of my undergrad majors, I didn't take a single class in the majors until my sophomore year. I didn't even begin to realize that I should have been in another college (ie COB) until late soph year.

And no, sorry, every other college does not require you to take the same number of obnoxious, worthless classes as the CAS. 4 language (for people who have no HS language history), 4 philosophy ... just a joke.

With all due respect warrior07, it seems as though you were ill suited for Marquette before you even got there.  I mean, they let you know well in advance what courses you have to take to graduate.  Also, how could you not be aware what college you were supposed to be in?

Some of the responsibility for this has to lie at your feet.