Colleges will fail?

[BuzzSucksSucks]

According to Gerald Celente (http://www.trendsresearch.com/journal.html), colleges will fail. 

College Crash
As the economy and the country unravel — closely following our forecast schedule — there is not a single major mitigating factor to forestall, much less reverse the process. Following the commercial real estate and retail cave-ins: College. Most will downsize, many will fail..... 

[mu_hilltopper]

Honestly .. I think college prices are 8-10 years ahead of household income, if not more.  With this recession, and huge drop in net worth, college tuition is probably 12-15 years ahead of where they should be to be sustainable over the long run.

So a sharp drop in demand, making the colleges go on a mission of cost cutting, would be good in the long run.

In short, in 20 years, when MU's cost is $88k/year but incomes haven't risen anywhere near enough to keep up .. I don't see that as a viable future, for MU or any private institution.

[jmayer1]

Honestly .. I think college prices are 8-10 years ahead of household income, if not more.  With this recession, and huge drop in net worth, college tuition is probably 12-15 years ahead of where they should be to be sustainable over the long run.

So a sharp drop in demand, making the colleges go on a mission of cost cutting, would be good in the long run.

In short, in 20 years, when MU's cost is $88k/year but incomes haven't risen anywhere near enough to keep up .. I don't see that as a viable future, for MU or any private institution.

I agree.  Fr. Wild stated in that State of the University address that the 3.5% increase in tuition next year was the lowest in 30 years.  I'd imagine that trend will continue for a few years.  I also think you'll see some downsizing of the staff at MU.  Hopefully some of the lesser professors will leave rather than some of the the best ones who might happen to make more $ but its hard to weed out people once they have tenure. 

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

Either Fr. Wild never took a math class, or that statement I keep seeing bandied about is completely disingenuous. Basically, he is saying that for the last 30 years, Marquette University has had tuition increases of over $1,000. What was the tuition in 1979-'80? Negative $10,000?

I realize that he is thinking "percentage increase," but a 6% increase on $25,000 is simply not the same thing as a 6% increase on $5,000 or $10,000 and implying that it is is completely arrogant for a guy taking about $40,000 out of incoming freshmen.

[mu_hilltopper]

Indeed .. "just a 3.5% increase" which equals $1,000 was irritating.

Man, if you raised UW tuition $1,000 in one year, there'd be so many cars on fire and tipped over in Madison, you wouldn't be able to count them.

Private institutions have to start .. right now .. thinking "how can we have zero percent increases for the next 5 years?" and forcing it to happen.

[Marquette Mama]

I am an MU parent who pays the full load at MU... no scholarship, no financial aid.  Daughter is a junior now, so we are looking at our final year of tuition/housing/books etc.  And a cratering stock market (i.e. evaporating college fund) did not help the situation. To be honest, I was relieved that the increase was ONLY 3.5% -- on our local news this morning, it was reported that MSU is talking about a 9% increase.  (On the plus side, seeing your kid happy and thriving at a place like MU is priceless, and I picked up a basketball obsession along the way.)

Hilltopper, I know from reading the board that you are a young dad.  If you haven't already, start the college fund NOW! 
   

[Brewtown Andy]

Man, if you raised UW tuition $1,000 in one year, there'd be so many cars on fire and tipped over in Madison, you wouldn't be able to count them.

The difficulty lies in figuring out which cars are on fire because of that, and which ones are on fire just because.   

That said, Marquette had it's highest application number ever for the 6th year in a row, so even if applications start going back down, we're still looking at losing 7K applications a year before MU starts getting nervous.

[mu_hilltopper]

Sure, app counts are going up .. and there are various debatable reasons. 

But in the end .. has MU succeeded or failed in their mission, when someone graduates with $30, 50, 90, 150k in debt?  Imagine a 10-15 years from now, when they graduate with $100-300k in debt, but salaries have increased at a third that rate.

They used to sell a product that could be afforded with 3-5-8 years of post-college debt.  In the future, they will sell a product that can't be afforded without 15-25 years of debt.  That's simply unsustainable.

In honesty, my wife and I will not be sending our kids (in 17 years) to a school that costs $88,000/year .. regardless of my income and savings, regardless of financial aid packages.  That 88k is MU's destiny at 4% increases for 17 years.

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

Right -- apps are up everywhere. The ease of applying is ridiculous. I didn't do this when I applied 6 or so years ago, but you can now apply to dozens of schools instantaneously through "Common Applications" that schools have signed up for where students do an application, sign boxes (or whatever) about where to send it, and the school accepts it. Technology and the internet have made applying to 10 to 20 schools a breeze. I know people who did it. Even with the cost of each application, people are hedging their bets like crazy through applications.

Hilltopper is right ... private schools are pricing themselves out of existence.

[jmayer1]

Sure, app counts are going up .. and there are various debatable reasons. 

But in the end .. has MU succeeded or failed in their mission, when someone graduates with $30, 50, 90, 150k in debt?  Imagine a 10-15 years from now, when they graduate with $100-300k in debt, but salaries have increased at a third that rate.

They used to sell a product that could be afforded with 3-5-8 years of post-college debt.  In the future, they will sell a product that can't be afforded without 15-25 years of debt.  That's simply unsustainable.

In honesty, my wife and I will not be sending our kids (in 17 years) to a school that costs $88,000/year .. regardless of my income and savings, regardless of financial aid packages.  That 88k is MU's destiny at 4% increases for 17 years.

Agreed, eventually you would think there has to be some sort of market adjustment or these schools are simply going to price themselves out of a lot of student's reaches.

[Rollout-the-Barrel]

Any chance of the government eventually bailing out or subsidizing "private" schools?  Isn't a 3.5% increase actually less than the 3.85 inflation rate for 2008?(http://inflationdata.com/inflation/inflation_Rate/historicalinflation.aspx)
Not at all trying to defend >$1,000 increase, but it may be hard to bring tuition down without drastic cuts or eliminating  most scholarships.  When I started at MU 10 years ago, my tuition after scholarships was almost equal to most big ten instate tuitions.  Doesn't appear to be the case now, but I wasn't aware of any of my friends at MU paying full sticker price.  IMO I got very good financial aid/scholarships for coming from a middle class family. What's the actual price most students pay now after scholarships?

[The Lens]

Applications have skyrocketed across the country b/c America was on such a good ride.  Many blind people love to tell you how MU was becoming the Harvard of the Midwest all the while ignoring how many other schools were becoming just as selective.  It's easy to have a better group of freshmen when more apply. 

Now what happens when applications go down, is MU a worse school?  Is it b/c Tom Crean left (he has been given credit for increased admissions / endowment / non-athletic fundraising?

To me the truth is MU will be the same school it is now, which is the same school it was in 1993 that let in my 2.7 GPA (without having to do Freshman Frontier). 

[ChicosBailBonds]

I am an MU parent who pays the full load at MU... no scholarship, no financial aid.  Daughter is a junior now, so we are looking at our final year of tuition/housing/books etc.  And a cratering stock market (i.e. evaporating college fund) did not help the situation. To be honest, I was relieved that the increase was ONLY 3.5% -- on our local news this morning, it was reported that MSU is talking about a 9% increase.  (On the plus side, seeing your kid happy and thriving at a place like MU is priceless, and I picked up a basketball obsession along the way.)

Hilltopper, I know from reading the board that you are a young dad.  If you haven't already, start the college fund NOW! 
   

www.upromise.com

Earns "free" money for your kids.  It takes awhile, but we've earned several thousand dollars for our kids in the last 7 years really doing nothing but buying the products we already buy.  Every little bit helps.

[THEGYMBAR]

Private high schools are beginning to struggle as well. A parent paying $10-15K for high school might opt to send child to public school and save the private school tuition for college. All I can say is that we have two kids in college and two in private high school currently and plenty of discussions are going on every week at our house on this topic.

I stated on this site months ago that this would ultimately happen. How many kids went to private colleges the past 10 years on grandparents money or home equity money? Both of those cash options are on the back burner for most people. The loss of wealth in America that past year will knock schools out of action. The playing fields are being leveled and the strong will be around for a long time.

[GGGG]

Right -- apps are up everywhere. The ease of applying is ridiculous. I didn't do this when I applied 6 or so years ago, but you can now apply to dozens of schools instantaneously through "Common Applications" that schools have signed up for where students do an application, sign boxes (or whatever) about where to send it, and the school accepts it. Technology and the internet have made applying to 10 to 20 schools a breeze. I know people who did it. Even with the cost of each application, people are hedging their bets like crazy through applications.

Hilltopper is right ... private schools are pricing themselves out of existence.

The Common Application costs nothing for a student to fill out online and submit.  My son applied to five private schools simultaneously in one afternoon at zero cost.  The only application fee was charged by UW-Madison.  I read last week that UW-Madison received 25,000 applications...compared to MU's 17,000.  Yet their freshman class will probably be four times as large.

The tough thing to figure out is all the discounting that goes on at private schools.  With all due respect to Marquette Mama, less than 10% pay full ride at MU.  My son is going to Butler next year, and will scholarships, is only paying about $3,000 more per year when compared to UW-Madison.  The one thing that drives me nuts about public universities is the fees on top of tuition.  The UW-Whitewater type schools will in the end cost someone $12,000 per year. 

The schools that will go under aren't the Marquettes.  It'll be the Mount Marys, the Silver Lakes...and maybe even places like Ripon or Viterbo.  Schools that don't have the endowment to offer the scholarships that other schools do.

[GGGG]

Indeed .. "just a 3.5% increase" which equals $1,000 was irritating.

Man, if you raised UW tuition $1,000 in one year, there'd be so many cars on fire and tipped over in Madison, you wouldn't be able to count them.

UW-Madison saw a one year increase of about $800 earlier this decade...the smaller UW schools saw one of about $500.

A generation ago, state tax support made up almost 50% of the UW's budget.  Now it is less than a quarter.

[GGGG]

Sure, app counts are going up .. and there are various debatable reasons. 

But in the end .. has MU succeeded or failed in their mission, when someone graduates with $30, 50, 90, 150k in debt?  Imagine a 10-15 years from now, when they graduate with $100-300k in debt, but salaries have increased at a third that rate.

BTW, anyone who graduates now with $40,000 in debt, will have to pay about $277 a month for 25 years to pay that back.  And remember, most of the interest is tax deductible.  All in all, that isn't a bad deal considering the value you are getting in return.

[GGGG]

Private high schools are beginning to struggle as well. A parent paying $10-15K for high school might opt to send child to public school and save the private school tuition for college. All I can say is that we have two kids in college and two in private high school currently and plenty of discussions are going on every week at our house on this topic.

I stated on this site months ago that this would ultimately happen. How many kids went to private colleges the past 10 years on grandparents money or home equity money? Both of those cash options are on the back burner for most people. The loss of wealth in America that past year will knock schools out of action. The playing fields are being leveled and the strong will be around for a long time.

I agree with you here.  With the market collapse, the decrease in our college fund has been difficult...to the point where we are probably going to be taking out a PLUS loan toward the end of my kid's college career because I don't think we'll have enough money to cover the full four years.  And I don't want to touch home equity at this point.

[Marquette Mama]

Here is some info from Kiplinger's about MU's "affordability" relative to other private universities.  Average MU debt load at graduation is over $30K -- among the highest of the universities on this list.

http://www.kiplinger.com/tools/privatecolleges/privatecollege.php?schoollist=prv_univ&sortby=RANK&orderby=flip&states%5B%5D=ALL&myschool%5B%5D=none&outputby=table

Shankapotamus -- my husband and I often joke about being the ONLY parents paying the full rate at MU.  So if it's 10%, at least I know we're not alone!  Seriously, MU was a conscious decision, and we have no complaints and no regrets.  But per my original post, and your subsequent one, given what happened to the market in the last year, if we were enrolling our student next year as a freshman (instead of a senior), the financial picture would look much harsher.

[GGGG]

You (and hilltopper) also touched on the whole issue of whether or not MU is really fulfilling its mission if all these kids are graduating with such debt.

One of the problem I have with higher education today is the whole obsession with rankings and the "exclusivity" issue that makes up one of the components.  This encourages massive applications and high sticker prices...because the higher the price, the more valuable it is right?

Yet I doubt MU gives you a better education now than it did 25 years ago when I was there - despite its move up the ranks.

[spiral97]

Interesting.. read this thread and then went stumbling.. second page I stumbled across was this:
8 Tuition-Free Colleges (most are private)

[Marquette Mama]

I love the dude ranch college in California!  I am picturing my kid working on the alfalfa farm as I type this. Hahaha.
I think Cooper Union, though, is a seriously good college.

[reinko]

Hey everyone,
My profession is in financial aid, and have been working on college affordability for the past 4 years.  I agree with what a ton of people have said on here about some private schools "pricing" themselves out for a lot of families.  And Shanka is right, it is the middle to lower tier privates that will be hurt the most.  Many of these schools operate day to day on the cash flow from students who pay tuition and room/board.

I think debt at graduation is a serious thing, and I have personally seen many people who have just graduated crippled with it.  An encouraging trend is that even though schools are making cuts, have hiring freezes, and their endowments are have taken hits, I have read that many schools are actually maintaining or boosting financial aid.  And clarification, the term "financial aid" is a combination of grants, scholarships, loans, and work-study, not just grants and scholarships.

So what to do about all this?  A few tips...

~Having student apply to diverse amount of schools, including at least a couple "financial" safety schools

~Save save save.  Chicos bought upromise which is great, and states have 529 plans.  They are tax-deferred savings vehicles for college.  Some states also have Pre Paid Tuition plans, where you buy "credits" now and esentially lock in 2009 tuition prices for when your child goes off to school.  Read more about those here: http://www.finaid.org/savings/529plans.phtml

~What is your EFC?  (Expected Family Contribution)  This is a federal # that basically tells you how much the gov't think you can pay for one year of college.  After filling out the FAFSA it calculates this #.  Seniors in high school fill out the FAFSA, but last year the Fed designed the FAFSA4Caster for parents of younger students so they can see what this calculation will be.  Check out the 4Caster here: http://www.fafsa4caster.ed.gov/

~Outside scholarships.  I know parents always push their seniors (usually too late) to apply for these, and the kids are like...big deal it's like $500.  Many of the kids I work with have not properly built a scholarship resume for the past three years.  As soon as your student reaches high school, try to get them involved with service, sports, schools look favorably for those young people that hold steady jobs.  Every dollar counts.

~General financial aid tips:

-Always save in the parents name, never in the students
-If you own a piece of property other than your home, that will kill you in the financial aid calculation
-Don't marry.  A little joke here, but if a students parents are not married, even if they live together, technically only 1 parent's income needs to be put down on the FAFSA.
-Dialogue with financial aid offices, don't negotiate.  FA offices are filled with smart people, and every spring they get flooded with phone calls from middle income families that try to negotiate the offer.  Schools will make adjustments for a variety of reasons, but a sure fire way to tick them off is trying to squeeze them for a few extra grand.  When taking tours and making phone calls before you get in, talk to financial aid offices, build a relationship.  And circumstances occur where schools will adjust the offer, like an unforseen medical expense or a family member losing a job.

Good luck everyone, if you have any real specific financial aid questions, please don't hesitate to PM me.

[THEGYMBAR]

Reinko---Great post!!! You answered a ton of questions I have always had. My kids have never received any financial aid to this point and have no loans. Unfortunately barring a miracle I am looking at loans to finish up my oldest son's senior year next year.

Not saying I predicted the future but we actually had my son transfer from MU to UW in Jan. '08 strictly because of finances. The tuition at MU had gotten to the point that I could not to justify to myself that a MU degree was $80K better than UW.

Good news of the story is that my son hates UW even more now that he goes there. School he feels is tougher but everything else he says sucks. College and private high schools are going to need to be much more creative going forward to keep their head above water.

Earlier this year I talked about the endowments school's had and this have lost a ton of money. In addition, people are not going to be throwing money to charity at the same level as the past. The mental aspect of this economy has millionaires living like ordinary folks.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Right -- apps are up everywhere. The ease of applying is ridiculous. I didn't do this when I applied 6 or so years ago, but you can now apply to dozens of schools instantaneously through "Common Applications" that schools have signed up for where students do an application, sign boxes (or whatever) about where to send it, and the school accepts it. Technology and the internet have made applying to 10 to 20 schools a breeze. I know people who did it. Even with the cost of each application, people are hedging their bets like crazy through applications.

Hilltopper is right ... private schools are pricing themselves out of existence.

What's the alternative?  If you want quality professors, you need to pay them.  If you want quality programs, you need to support them (technology, buildings, infrastructure, etc).  Private schools do not get the same benefits that public schools do, as such the costs are there.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Private high schools are beginning to struggle as well. A parent paying $10-15K for high school might opt to send child to public school and save the private school tuition for college. All I can say is that we have two kids in college and two in private high school currently and plenty of discussions are going on every week at our house on this topic.

I stated on this site months ago that this would ultimately happen. How many kids went to private colleges the past 10 years on grandparents money or home equity money? Both of those cash options are on the back burner for most people. The loss of wealth in America that past year will knock schools out of action. The playing fields are being leveled and the strong will be around for a long time.

Absolutely true.  My wife and I went to Catholic schools from 1st grade through high school (and I also went to MU).

Our kids go to public elementary schools and will all the way through high school.  What used to be $35 a month when we were kids for Catholic grade school is much higher now.  Our Catholic high schools was $900 a year when I started in 1983.  Last year it was $6182.

But the thing is, if they didn't charge that much, they wouldn't get the quality teachers / professors and the education wouldn't be worth it.  Alas, the problem.

[ChicosBailBonds]

You (and hilltopper) also touched on the whole issue of whether or not MU is really fulfilling its mission if all these kids are graduating with such debt.

One of the problem I have with higher education today is the whole obsession with rankings and the "exclusivity" issue that makes up one of the components.  This encourages massive applications and high sticker prices...because the higher the price, the more valuable it is right?

Yet I doubt MU gives you a better education now than it did 25 years ago when I was there - despite its move up the ranks.

One thing I most certainly wouldn't do.....send my child to a private school if they are going into something like teaching.  He/she can get the same education, or close to it, at the public college without the debt coming out.

I never understood why someone went to Harvard to become a teach when they could have gone to in-state.

That has to be factored into the equation, in my opinion. 

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

What's the alternative?  If you want quality professors, you need to pay them.  If you want quality programs, you need to support them (technology, buildings, infrastructure, etc).  Private schools do not get the same benefits that public schools do, as such the costs are there.

The alternative is to go to a school that doesn't cost $40,000. Had I had any idea I'd have the loans I have now, there is no way I'd waste my time on a Marquette education. Definitely not worth it.

Do you actually think every dime of that $40,000 a year per student is going to good use? Maybe it's been awhile since you've seen how bloated the bureaucracy and frills for the administration is at Marquette.

[GGGG]

One thing I most certainly wouldn't do.....send my child to a private school if they are going into something like teaching.  He/she can get the same education, or close to it, at the public college without the debt coming out.

I know a girl from the town I live in who is going to Edgewood to major in elementary education.  Because of the quality of the program, she is likely going to end up in a parochial school in the Madison area versus a public school.  So she will end up paying more for a college education, and getting a lower paying job, than if she went to Eau Claire or Whitewater.

[ChicosBailBonds]

The alternative is to go to a school that doesn't cost $40,000. Had I had any idea I'd have the loans I have now, there is no way I'd waste my time on a Marquette education. Definitely not worth it.

Do you actually think every dime of that $40,000 a year per student is going to good use? Maybe it's been awhile since you've seen how bloated the bureaucracy and frills for the administration is at Marquette.

That's actually my point.  I think it depends on what your major is, etc.  If you're just going to get a run of the mill degree, I would not go to MU or any private college anymore.  In fact, if I were MU, I'd get out of that business.  I'd specialize in highly unique majors that are lucrative on the back end.  I realize this is against the "Jesuit mission", but I just don't know why someone would attend a private school for a degree that yields a $35K a year job.

[GGGG]

That's actually my point.  I think it depends on what your major is, etc.  If you're just going to get a run of the mill degree, I would not go to MU or any private college anymore.  In fact, if I were MU, I'd get out of that business.  I'd specialize in highly unique majors that are lucrative on the back end.  I realize this is against the "Jesuit mission", but I just don't know why someone would attend a private school for a degree that yields a $35K a year job.

So you want Marquette to become another MSOE?

[reinko]

That's actually my point.  I think it depends on what your major is, etc.  If you're just going to get a run of the mill degree, I would not go to MU or any private college anymore.  In fact, if I were MU, I'd get out of that business.  I'd specialize in highly unique majors that are lucrative on the back end.  I realize this is against the "Jesuit mission", but I just don't know why someone would attend a private school for a degree that yields a $35K a year job.

Even though I agree with you on most things Marquette-related, I think you are way off, and this someone who graduated with a degree in Secondary Ed. from Marquette in 2002.  I think first you are unintentially demeaning the education field and "other" 35K year jobs, that you can educated at your run of the mill state school.  What about social workers and guidance counselors?  The fact is to help fix our education system we need more people from Marquette, and the Ivies, USC, Northwestern, and other great schools to enter into education. 

As a former educator, trust me know I know the bad things.  I also know how teacher unions are ruining the system, we get summers off, blah blah blah.  The ones just waiting for their retirement to kick in.  But I have also seen the magnificent ones who truly impact the lives of young people.

And of course those that want to pursue a masters or PhD in education to become principals, superintendents, college professors.  Obviously where they went to undergrad, and how well they fared there, will have an impact on what kind of programs they can get into later in life.

And there are actually a ton of programs to help those young people with debt that want to teach in low-income/high need area.

~The TEACH Grant, $4,000 a year undergrad grant from the Fed for those that commit to teaching 4 years in a low income neighborhood in a high need field (math, science, foreign language  http://studentaid.ed.gov/students/attachments/siteresources/4807Teach_FactSheet_v3.pdf

~The ACE Program, a two year service commitment program run out of ND where you earn your masters of education for free, and get two AmeriCorps Education service awards totally nearly $10,000  http://ace.nd.edu/

~And many states offer loan forgiveness programs for a commitment to teach in one of their high need schools  http://www.aft.org/tools4teachers/loan-forgiveness.htm

[mu_hilltopper]

Welll .. I'm not sure Chicos was trying to demean educators .. at worst he used a poor choice of words to describe techincal/scientific/business degrees versus liberal arts types.

That being said .. my wife got her undergrad at MU, masters at UWM in education, and has had a few student teachers under her wing.  She's said on a number of occasions, that non-MU educators .. were always a step behind, and never impressed her.

So .. while it may not make financial sense to go to MU for your educational degree, it sure makes sense from a societal standpoint.

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

That's actually my point.  I think it depends on what your major is, etc.  If you're just going to get a run of the mill degree, I would not go to MU or any private college anymore.  In fact, if I were MU, I'd get out of that business.  I'd specialize in highly unique majors that are lucrative on the back end.  I realize this is against the "Jesuit mission", but I just don't know why someone would attend a private school for a degree that yields a $35K a year job.

I think that's an excellent point. Unfortunately, it's too much of Marquette's revenue base (the Arts and Crafts types of majors) and the University has ZERO incentive to tell A&C majors that they're wasting four years of their lives studying things from books they could just as easily get from Amazon.com and study on their own. As long as a stream of first-generation college student morons (like yours truly!) exist who are willing to study political science, the University will milk them for all they have. It's all about information costs.

Welll .. I'm not sure Chicos was trying to demean educators .. at worst he used a poor choice of words to describe techincal/scientific/business degrees versus liberal arts types.

That being said .. my wife got her undergrad at MU, masters at UWM in education, and has had a few student teachers under her wing.  She's said on a number of occasions, that non-MU educators .. were always a step behind, and never impressed her.

So .. while it may not make financial sense to go to MU for your educational degree, it sure makes sense from a societal standpoint.

Agreed with this as well. Which is what makes it slightly agonizing. The choice of college education seems to make a definitive character statement about a person (much of the time) that a person can carry as part of his personality for some time.

The importance of education is all about what is / is not value-added. Fortunately, I was smart enough to re-direct my schooling and get a graduate business degree (15% of my debts) at MU to add to a (let's be serious) near-worthless A&C undergrad (85% of my debts). Education (k-12) has been so dumbed down in America that people do not realize that part of education needs to be skills-related to be worth the opportunity costs in price and time. When all you've done since kindergarten are lit- and history-related classes (etc.) your academic world view is pretty small.

[THEGYMBAR]

While I believe colleges in general will struggle I am hopeful that the economy turns before this happens. If not, it might not be a bad thing because there are too many colleges and too many kids going to college. My middle son, who attended private school from K4-12, would have much preferred going to trade school. He and many others might have been served going a trade school.

Another note on the gentlemen noted in first post on this thread, his beliefs are fairly out there. I recently saw him on TV and he is stating this is The Greatest Depression and much worse is yet to come. While I do not completely disagree with him here is one guy hoping he is dead wrong.

By the way, the steakhouse thread is a much better read. This problem is making me tired and hungry....Butch's anyone?

[GGGG]

I think that's an excellent point. Unfortunately, it's too much of Marquette's revenue base (the Arts and Crafts types of majors) and the University has ZERO incentive to tell A&C majors that they're wasting four years of their lives studying things from books they could just as easily get from Amazon.com and study on their own. As long as a stream of first-generation college student morons (like yours truly!) exist who are willing to study political science, the University will milk them for all they have. It's all about information costs.

I'm sorry, but this is really moronic.  I am a Poly Sci major who ended up neither in politics, nor in the field that I thought I was going to enter, which was law.  However to say that I could have replicated my education simply by reading books from Amazon is ridiculous.  Those professors taught me how to think - not simply reguritate facts.  They taught me how to write.  They taught me how to work my ass off in the classroom.  Christopher Wolfe, the Constitutional Law professor, was my favorite by far.  He was hard...damn hard...but I learned a hell of a lot.  And I took his second class because of my experience in the first one.  And when I saw him on the basketball court during my senior year, he remembered my name, asked me about my post-graduate plans, etc.

And now I work in an administrative position and make six figures a year.  I wouldn't have been able to do that by simply reading books on my own.

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

I'm sorry, but this is really moronic.  I am a Poly Sci major who ended up neither in politics, nor in the field that I thought I was going to enter, which was law.  However to say that I could have replicated my education simply by reading books from Amazon is ridiculous.  Those professors taught me how to think - not simply reguritate facts.  They taught me how to write.  They taught me how to work my ass off in the classroom.  Christopher Wolfe, the Constitutional Law professor, was my favorite by far.  He was hard...damn hard...but I learned a hell of a lot.  And I took his second class because of my experience in the first one.  And when I saw him on the basketball court during my senior year, he remembered my name, asked me about my post-graduate plans, etc.

And now I work in an administrative position and make six figures a year.  I wouldn't have been able to do that by simply reading books on my own.

A wee bit defensive? So you're saying that you did political science in undergrad but don't do anything related to the field right now? That's exactly my point, "moron." You could have learned the substantive academic portion on your own, and the value-add contribution of your political science studies in academia was nil to your income. You made your way through a career either through your own intelligence regardless of your specific academic studies or through your personal connections.  What a wonderful example of the obnoxious defensiveness of people in Arts & Crafts studies, with people eager as ever to defend splurging hundreds of thousands not for value-added skills learning but for a certificate on a wall.

[reinko]

A wee bit defensive? So you're saying that you did political science in undergrad but don't do anything related to the field right now? That's exactly my point, "moron." You could have learned the substantive academic portion on your own, and the value-add contribution of your political science studies in academia was nil to your income. You made your way through a career either through your own intelligence regardless of your specific academic studies or through your personal connections.  What a wonderful example of the obnoxious defensiveness of people in Arts & Crafts studies, with people eager as ever to defend splurging hundreds of thousands not for value-added skills learning but for a certificate on a wall.

I think that's an excellent point. Unfortunately, it's too much of Marquette's revenue base (the Arts and Crafts types of majors) and the University has ZERO incentive to tell A&C majors that they're wasting four years of their lives studying things from books they could just as easily get from Amazon.com and study on their own. As long as a stream of first-generation college student morons (like yours truly!) exist who are willing to study political science, the University will milk them for all they have. It's all about information costs.

Agreed with this as well. Which is what makes it slightly agonizing. The choice of college education seems to make a definitive character statement about a person (much of the time) that a person can carry as part of his personality for some time.

The importance of education is all about what is / is not value-added. Fortunately, I was smart enough to re-direct my schooling and get a graduate business degree (15% of my debts) at MU to add to a (let's be serious) near-worthless A&C undergrad (85% of my debts). Education (k-12) has been so dumbed down in America that people do not realize that part of education needs to be skills-related to be worth the opportunity costs in price and time. When all you've done since kindergarten are lit- and history-related classes (etc.) your academic world view is pretty small.

Let's see where to begin.  According to your logic, you "were smart enough" to get a business degree to help off set your costs you poly sci degree.  What does that make me?  A poly sci/ed major who didn't supplement my education with an advanced degree.  Some kind of idiot?   

While we are on the subject, the evolution of the MBA has become a joke.  Unless you get those three letters from a top 15-20, your "value added" is greatly diminished. 

You wonder why people get defensive?  May be it's using terms like the College of Arts and Crafts.  Now, is Arts and Sciences as demanding as a hard hard science major?  It's debatable.  I knew plenty of people who dominated Organic Chem, but dreaded writing a 15 page paper on the Chilean Economy after the fall of Pinochet.

Why bother instigating these fights?  Why not have respect for people for people that are taking on debt to enter a career that may not be six figures.  Your world may be dominated how large your paycheck is, but thank God mine isn't. 

If I had to guess, based on your screen name, and your smarmy attitude.  You are about 23, have some mid-level management position at NWML, and you are still a year or two away from saving for a down payment on a condo in the 5th ward. 

Enjoy chasing the almighty dollar.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Even though I agree with you on most things Marquette-related, I think you are way off, and this someone who graduated with a degree in Secondary Ed. from Marquette in 2002.  I think first you are unintentially demeaning the education field and "other" 35K year jobs, that you can educated at your run of the mill state school.  What about social workers and guidance counselors?  The fact is to help fix our education system we need more people from Marquette, and the Ivies, USC, Northwestern, and other great schools to enter into education. 

As a former educator, trust me know I know the bad things.  I also know how teacher unions are ruining the system, we get summers off, blah blah blah.  The ones just waiting for their retirement to kick in.  But I have also seen the magnificent ones who truly impact the lives of young people.

And of course those that want to pursue a masters or PhD in education to become principals, superintendents, college professors.  Obviously where they went to undergrad, and how well they fared there, will have an impact on what kind of programs they can get into later in life.

And there are actually a ton of programs to help those young people with debt that want to teach in low-income/high need area.

~The TEACH Grant, $4,000 a year undergrad grant from the Fed for those that commit to teaching 4 years in a low income neighborhood in a high need field (math, science, foreign language  http://studentaid.ed.gov/students/attachments/siteresources/4807Teach_FactSheet_v3.pdf

~The ACE Program, a two year service commitment program run out of ND where you earn your masters of education for free, and get two AmeriCorps Education service awards totally nearly $10,000  http://ace.nd.edu/

~And many states offer loan forgiveness programs for a commitment to teach in one of their high need schools  http://www.aft.org/tools4teachers/loan-forgiveness.htm

Definitely not intentional.  As I've stated before, I have utmost respect for teachers as my mom taught for 40+ years.  My dad was a college professor at West Virginia University as a geologist. 

Teacher unions....that's another story.   


My point was that it's going to be awfully tough for me as a parent paying the bills for my kids (less than 10 years away) to go to a USC, MU, USD, etc to earn a degree which market forces have stated will not yield the return on the investment.

Maybe that's too black and white in the way to view it, but when I'm forking over the dollars and my children will be incurring the debt load that I can't cover, it's a fact of reality for us.   If my kids tell me they want to go into one of these fields, and again, absolutely nothing wrong with any of the career fields at all, that is a huge consideration in determining which schools to apply to.  I don't see how it can't be when the reality of dollars and cents are weighed into it.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I think that's an excellent point. Unfortunately, it's too much of Marquette's revenue base (the Arts and Crafts types of majors) and the University has ZERO incentive to tell A&C majors that they're wasting four years of their lives studying things from books they could just as easily get from Amazon.com and study on their own. As long as a stream of first-generation college student morons (like yours truly!) exist who are willing to study political science, the University will milk them for all they have. It's all about information costs.

Yup.  I majored in Political Science and History, too.  I know where you're coming from.  Then again, my career has had nothing to do with either majors.  I think there is a difference between majors and career paths.  Majoring in nursing seems to be a career path.  Majoring in Poli Sci isn't, in my opinion.

[GGGG]

A wee bit defensive? So you're saying that you did political science in undergrad but don't do anything related to the field right now? That's exactly my point, "moron." You could have learned the substantive academic portion on your own, and the value-add contribution of your political science studies in academia was nil to your income. You made your way through a career either through your own intelligence regardless of your specific academic studies or through your personal connections.  What a wonderful example of the obnoxious defensiveness of people in Arts & Crafts studies, with people eager as ever to defend splurging hundreds of thousands not for value-added skills learning but for a certificate on a wall.

I guess you missed the point where I said that my degree taught me how to think...and how to write.  Both of which I do on a regular basis.

Here's the deal.  I know I would be nowhere near where I am today if it weren't for the education I received.  Could I have received it elsewhere?  Probably.  However I was lucky in the my parents and grandparents had the money to allow to go wherever I wanted (within reason) and I felt MU was the best option.

It's too bad that you didn't have the same experience.

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

I guess you missed the point where I said that my degree taught me how to think...and how to write.  Both of which I do on a regular basis.

Yes, but which had nothing to do with "political science" itself! An accountant will almost certainly be judged in the workplace by the extent to which he has mastered the knowledge of accounting. Yes, Marquette has an amazing POSC Dept and Wolfe is ridiculously brilliant; I know him personally. But the content of what was learned in the classroom, as you are pointing out yourself, did not matter very much compared with the non-tangibles of learning how to think and write. Unfortunately for most CAS students / programs, even this basic benefit is not there. Especially at schools below MU's level of academic reputation.

Here's the deal.  I know I would be nowhere near where I am today if it weren't for the education I received.  Could I have received it elsewhere?  Probably.  However I was lucky in the my parents and grandparents had the money to allow to go wherever I wanted (within reason) and I felt MU was the best option.
It's too bad that you didn't have the same experience.

You were fortunate and I'm glad you recognize that. For someone like me - for the large number of students like me - who went into RIDICULOUS debt for what seems in retrospect (really, by the end of junior year) like a waste of time, the opportunity cost in terms of money and time is obscene, which is why folks like me don't look upon the experience of getting jipped for an "Arts and Crafts" academic experience with the same level of appreciation.

I should add that I have no beef with the POSC Dept (outside of that SOB Tim O'Brien, who is himself hated by virtually every POSC faculty member). If the CAS didn't require something like 16-20 completely worthless classes (language, history, philosophy etc.) because they're terrified of what would happen if students' priorities were determined by the students themselves, a degree from the CAS would be a lot more enjoyable.

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

Let's see where to begin.  According to your logic, you "were smart enough" to get a business degree to help off set your costs you poly sci degree.  What does that make me?  A poly sci/ed major who didn't supplement my education with an advanced degree.  Some kind of idiot?   

While we are on the subject, the evolution of the MBA has become a joke.  Unless you get those three letters from a top 15-20, your "value added" is greatly diminished. 

You wonder why people get defensive?  May be it's using terms like the College of Arts and Crafts.  Now, is Arts and Sciences as demanding as a hard hard science major?  It's debatable.  I knew plenty of people who dominated Organic Chem, but dreaded writing a 15 page paper on the Chilean Economy after the fall of Pinochet.

Why bother instigating these fights?  Why not have respect for people for people that are taking on debt to enter a career that may not be six figures.  Your world may be dominated how large your paycheck is, but thank God mine isn't. 

If I had to guess, based on your screen name, and your smarmy attitude.  You are about 23, have some mid-level management position at NWML, and you are still a year or two away from saving for a down payment on a condo in the 5th ward. 

Enjoy chasing the almighty dollar.

I didn't get the MBA and I agree with your assessment of the value of one.

A downpayment for a condo? I'll be paying back student loans in lieu of things that actually interest me (a house, a better car) for some time.

Also ... I can't help but add ... the reason that some Bio wizz kid fears having some Chilean paper is because being forced to do some lit or history paper is not in his interests. It should say something about the value-add (to his skill set, not necessarily intellectual curiousity) of that history class that he is eager to do something he can actually continue and pursue in one endeavor (bio stuff) and not in the other (history stuff).

And no, you weren't an idiot. Just taken for a ride like about the 30-40% of students who enroll in the CAS.

[Chili]

Warrior07 - You might be the first person I have ever seen want to call out FOB.

Edit: FOB = Father Tim O'Brien, Director of the Les Aspin Center.

[mu_hilltopper]

Fall Out Boy?
Fresh Off Boat?
F*cking Oregon Bastard?

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Yes, but which had nothing to do with "political science" itself! An accountant will almost certainly be judged in the workplace by the extent to which he has mastered the knowledge of accounting. Yes, Marquette has an amazing POSC Dept and Wolfe is ridiculously brilliant; I know him personally. But the content of what was learned in the classroom, as you are pointing out yourself, did not matter very much compared with the non-tangibles of learning how to think and write. Unfortunately for most CAS students / programs, even this basic benefit is not there. Especially at schools below MU's level of academic reputation.

You were fortunate and I'm glad you recognize that. For someone like me - for the large number of students like me - who went into RIDICULOUS debt for what seems in retrospect (really, by the end of junior year) like a waste of time, the opportunity cost in terms of money and time is obscene, which is why folks like me don't look upon the experience of getting jipped for an "Arts and Crafts" academic experience with the same level of appreciation.

I should add that I have no beef with the POSC Dept (outside of that SOB Tim O'Brien, who is himself hated by virtually every POSC faculty member). If the CAS didn't require something like 16-20 completely worthless classes (language, history, philosophy etc.) because they're terrified of what would happen if students' priorities were determined by the students themselves, a degree from the CAS would be a lot more enjoyable.

Hmmm... interesting take about education value and bang for your buck.

What about a traditional trade like becoming and electrician or a plumber?

Surely the schooling is cheaper there, and you get paid for an apprenticeship. All of their training is in their trade (value added). There isn't a lot of "cross training" in those fields.

Maybe you should have gone into a trade.

[MU B2002]

If the CAS didn't require something like 16-20 completely worthless classes (language, history, philosophy etc.)

If you felt these classes were worthless, why did you choose to remain at the university? 


And I think that many of the classes you are talking about were required of the entire university not just the College of Arts and Sciences. 

[🏀]

YIf the CAS didn't require something like 16-20 completely worthless classes (language, history, philosophy etc.) because they're terrified of what would happen if students' priorities were determined by the students themselves, a degree from the CAS would be a lot more enjoyable.

Welcome to every major and college that has core studies. There are required so you can have an intelligent level capable of representing the university, and not be an apparent idiot when you're in the real world.

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

If you felt these classes were worthless, why did you choose to remain at the university? 


And I think that many of the classes you are talking about were required of the entire university not just the College of Arts and Sciences. 

You mean why did I stay in the College of Arts and Crafts? Unfortunately, a student is more or less told that he has to take most of those worthless classes before he even takes a single class in his major. For two of my undergrad majors, I didn't take a single class in the majors until my sophomore year. I didn't even begin to realize that I should have been in another college (ie COB) until late soph year.

And no, sorry, every other college does not require you to take the same number of obnoxious, worthless classes as the CAS. 4 language (for people who have no HS language history), 4 philosophy ... just a joke.

[GGGG]

You mean why did I stay in the College of Arts and Crafts? Unfortunately, a student is more or less told that he has to take most of those worthless classes before he even takes a single class in his major. For two of my undergrad majors, I didn't take a single class in the majors until my sophomore year. I didn't even begin to realize that I should have been in another college (ie COB) until late soph year.

And no, sorry, every other college does not require you to take the same number of obnoxious, worthless classes as the CAS. 4 language (for people who have no HS language history), 4 philosophy ... just a joke.

With all due respect warrior07, it seems as though you were ill suited for Marquette before you even got there.  I mean, they let you know well in advance what courses you have to take to graduate.  Also, how could you not be aware what college you were supposed to be in?

Some of the responsibility for this has to lie at your feet.

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

With all due respect warrior07, it seems as though you were ill suited for Marquette before you even got there.  I mean, they let you know well in advance what courses you have to take to graduate.  Also, how could you not be aware what college you were supposed to be in?

Some of the responsibility for this has to lie at your feet.

Not college I was supposed to be in? I knew that my 3 undergraduate majors were all in the CAS. I only realized after a couple years that I should have been in a real college with real adults with real majors that are actually worthwhile. Which is why I extended my undergraduate studies into a master's degree in a serious department.

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

With all due respect warrior07, it seems as though you were ill suited for Marquette before you even got there.  I mean, they let you know well in advance what courses you have to take to graduate.  Also, how could you not be aware what college you were supposed to be in?

Some of the responsibility for this has to lie at your feet.

BTW - are you going to respond to a single other post I've made or are you too offended that someone has criticized your precious Arts & Crafts background?

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

You didn't have to go to MU.

Why are you blaming MU for putting you into debt?

You could have done 1 million things that would have been cheaper and helped you start a career... even after your soph. year.

Again, it it's about value of education (defined by the amount of money you make vs the amount of money you spent), you should have become an electrician. You'd have gotten way more value.

[bma725]

You mean why did I stay in the College of Arts and Crafts? Unfortunately, a student is more or less told that he has to take most of those worthless classes before he even takes a single class in his major. For two of my undergrad majors, I didn't take a single class in the majors until my sophomore year. I didn't even begin to realize that I should have been in another college (ie COB) until late soph year.

And no, sorry, every other college does not require you to take the same number of obnoxious, worthless classes as the CAS. 4 language (for people who have no HS language history), 4 philosophy ... just a joke.

Go to any other Jesuit or religious university in the country and you will find the same thing.  Broad education is at the core of Jesuit teaching.  Knowledge in Philosophy, Theology and the rest of the Humanities is at the core of Jesuit teaching.

Sounds like you should have gone to a public school or actually read up on the Jesuits before attending MU (or any other Jesuit school).

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

You didn't have to go to MU.

Why are you blaming MU for putting you into debt?

You could have done 1 million things that would have been cheaper and helped you start a career... even after your soph. year.

Again, it it's about value of education (defined by the amount of money you make vs the amount of money you spent), you should have become an electrician. You'd have gotten way more value.

You really need to read what I've written. I've compared the value of an ARTS AND CRAFTS degree at Marquette with everything else at Marquette. You cannot honestly tell me the value of an Arts and Crafts major is equal to anything else at Marquette or any university on average based on the return. Or do you actually believe that?

[GGGG]

BTW - are you going to respond to a single other post I've made or are you too offended that someone has criticized your precious Arts & Crafts background?

I am hardly offended by your comments.  I just think it is sad that you don't recognize the value of the education you received...or better yet, apparently not adequately using the education that was provided to you.  I guess in that sense the Jesuits failed.

Apparently you expected them to tell you in advance what courses you had to take to graduate so that you could have realized that they were a "joke" ahead of time.

Oh wait...

[GGGG]

You really need to read what I've written. I've compared the value of an ARTS AND CRAFTS degree at Marquette with everything else at Marquette. You cannot honestly tell me the value of an Arts and Crafts major is equal to anything else at Marquette or any university on average based on the return. Or do you actually believe that?

What "return" are you talking about?  Some people, like me, want to study POSC, ECON, and HIST because they find them interesting.  I got my degree and am making a good living doing something I like.  I didn't want to be an accountant.  I didn't want to be an engineer. 

Hell, one of my best friends got his engineering degree, but hasn't done any engineering in years - he's in international sales support.  He just loves it.  You don't always do what you intend to do when you are 18.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

You really need to read what I've written. I've compared the value of an ARTS AND CRAFTS degree at Marquette with everything else at Marquette. You cannot honestly tell me the value of an Arts and Crafts major is equal to anything else at Marquette or any university on average based on the return. Or do you actually believe that?

I've read what you wrote.

I'm simply applying the same logic you are using to illustrate a point.

Do you believe that a degree in communications or business at MU (valued at 80k+) is a better value that becoming an electrician's apprentice and then becoming fully union certified?

I can tell you that the MU degree is not a good "value". You'll have wasted 4 years and blown 80k, when you could be working for those 4 years and getting paid.

The electrician will be far enough ahead that it will take decades for the MU grad to catch up (if ever).

If value is important to you (which you appear to be very focused on), then MU, or any major 4 year school is not a good choice.

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

I've read what you wrote.

I'm simply applying the same logic you are using to illustrate a point.

Do you believe that a degree in communications or business at MU (valued at 80k+) is a better value that becoming an electrician's apprentice and then becoming fully union certified?

I can tell you that the MU degree is not a good "value". You'll have wasted 4 years and blown 80k, when you could be working for those 4 years and getting paid.

The electrician will be far enough ahead that it will take decades for the MU grad to catch up (if ever).

If value is important to you (which you appear to be very focused on), then MU, or any major 4 year school is not a good choice.

Ok, you win. I can't argue with a guy who sees no distinction between majoring in english and majoring in finance.

[reinko]

Ok, you win. I can't argue with a guy who sees no distinction between majoring in english and majoring in finance.

I'm sure those finance majors are just reeling about job opportunities with this awesome economy.   

But seriously, your comments about "real people" with "real majors" in the COB, is so misguided, that it borders on hilarity.  Here is a list of A&S majors...in case you forgot there are some heavy hitters in this list:

American Military History: Who needs this?!?!  The USA never makes any mistakes when it comes to war.
Anthropology
Biochemistry & Molecular Biology:  Molecules, who needs 'em!  Talk about over-RATED!
Biological Sciences
Catholic Theology:  Jesus sucks, why would anyone want to study this?  Especially at a Catholic university?
Chemistry: The sciences are for nerds!  Have you seen my bunsen burner?
Classical Languages
Classical Studies
Computational Mathematics
Computer Science: Computers!  Nerds...internets...message boards
Criminology & Law Studies: You think this might be good for someone to study law?
Economics: Yeah, you may have forgot this was not in the COB.
English Literature
French
German
History
International Affairs:  Hmmm, with the world so hunky dory right now, this must be worthless.
Mathematics: Ahh, the maths. 
Philosophy
Physics: Einstein was a bitch, and so are those who would actually study physics
Physiological Sciences
Political Science
Psychology
Social Welfare & Justice: F'in do gooders!  Justice!  Please, it's all about the kwan.
Sociology
Spanish Language & Literature: Seeing that in about 1/3 of our country speaks Spanish as a Native tongue as supposed to English, think this is useful?
Spanish for the Professions
Theology:  Once again, faith is so overrated.
Writing Intensive English
Women's and Gender Studies  Ok this one is worthless    Kidding ladies!

My point, the world does not revolve around Finance majors.  And yes, you are no more important than us lowly A&S majors.  You may think you are, but trust me, you are not.  You sir have some deep rooted hatred toward the majority of your college career, and for that, I feel bad for you.  I loved college.  I loved most of my classes.  I met awesome people, and did things I will never get to expereince again.   Did I borrow $20K to do those things?  You are damn right I did.  I would do it again in a heartbeat.

So pack up your calculator and one those visors with the see-thru green brim and be on your way.

[bma725]

You really need to read what I've written. I've compared the value of an ARTS AND CRAFTS degree at Marquette with everything else at Marquette. You cannot honestly tell me the value of an Arts and Crafts major is equal to anything else at Marquette or any university on average based on the return. Or do you actually believe that?

You seem to equate a college education only with the financial or employment return it provides you after graduation.  There's much more to your education than the financial return.

I was in what they called a multidisciplinary major, meaning I was part of A&S and COB.  I work in business today in a field related to what I studied in the COB, and can tell you that what I learned in Arts and Sciences classes was 1000 times more valuable than anything I ever learned in COB. 

For 95% of the jobs you'll get after graduation, the skills you get from studying things like Philosophy, Logic, PoliSci, Sociology etc are far more important than what you learn from analyzing the marketing campaign for the Patio Daddio, or learning how to properly apply Keynesian economic theory to the current financial situation.  Most jobs you get after college unless you go into a super specialized field like Nursing or Accounting or Engineering don't really care what you know.  They care what you can learn and how quickly you can do it.  The fact you can learn what they need to teach, the fact that you have the critical thinking skills to problem solve and come up with new ideas are far more important.  Those are the kinds of things you get from an A&S education that you quite often don't in the other areas.

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

My point, the world does not revolve around Finance majors.  And yes, you are no more important than us lowly A&S majors.  You may think you are, but trust me, you are not. 

Again, I was a lowly A&S major. Thrice.

[GGGG]

Again, I was a lowly A&S major. Thrice.

Then maybe the fault lies with you and not Marquette.

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

Then maybe the fault lies with you and not Marquette.

Clearly you haven't read a thing I've posted. Oh well.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Ok, you win. I can't argue with a guy who sees no distinction between majoring in english and majoring in finance.

I see the difference... but you seem to think the only distinction is "value" (at least that is all you are focusing on).

If your primary goal is "value"... go to JUCO and get an associates degree. That will provide you with a better value.

The difference in value between a 4 year English degree and a 4 year degree in finance isn't as much as if you just skipped school all together and learned a trade (or did juco).

Now, I'm not saying that trades are for everybody, but you seem obssessed with the fact that you didn't get a good "value" for your money at MU.

MU is not just about the specific assignments and memorization, but the overall education (that's the value).

Example:   I learned far more working on large group projects than I ever did from a specific instructor. Time management, team negotiation, teamwork, division of labor and delegation, leadership, project management, etc. etc.

Does this mean I shouldn't have gone to MU and I should have just hung out with my friends doing "team projects"? Nope. It doesn't.

For a guy with a AS degree, I thought you would have a better grasp of logic 001. 

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

For a guy with a AS degree, I thought you would have a better grasp of logic 001. 

They don't require/mandate 001 anymore. ;-)

[GGGG]

Clearly you haven't read a thing I've posted. Oh well.

Ditto.

[Hards Alumni]

Warrior07, perhaps you are completely unaware of how the real world works.  I am ASSUMING the 07 in your name is indicative of your year of graduation, approximately a year and a half ago, which also gives us a good idea how long you have actually lived in the real world.  Now, I won't lie to you, I graduated in 2004 (College of Health Science, since I know you will ask), and that doesn't give me an enormous lead in real life, but it doesn't mean you can just dismiss everyone else's opinions here just because you THINK you are right and you THINK you know everything. 

A few fundamentals before we get started.  I KNOW of employers that would hire people who had lower grades, or a different degree simply because they will probably end up working harder and being a better overall employee than someone who simply shows up to their doorstep with their resume and a degree.  In fact, my close friend from college started his own branch of a company here in the Madison area that was previously only located in Milwaukee.  Guess what his major in college was?  History.  Thats right, a history major managed to step over all of the college of business students that come out of MU, and the UW system every year and got that company up and running here in Madison back in 2005-06.  That company now has around 50 employees and is a recession proof company.  He also makes a lot more money than me.  Not bad for a lowly Arts and Crafts major, huh?  Oh, and in case you were wondering, no, there was no nepotism involved in his hiring; I wish I could say the same for my friends who have jobs and were products of the school of business.

Most places that hire people don't care what classes you took.  They care that you got an education and that you can be molded to fit their company.  Not that you can cram the night before a test and ace it.  This is the real world where performance isn't measured in standardized tests and essays.

Welcome.

[mu_hilltopper]

Indeed, that was tried and true philosophy when I worked for Andersen (Accenture.)    What you majored in didn't matter one bit for hiring purposes.  If you were a successful student (typically 3.5 gpa or above) and interviewed well .. they hired you under the idea that .. smart people can learn just about anything.

As a consultant, which, often for the first 1-2 years you were doing some sort of computer programming, 60% or so were your classic majors, like Business, CompSci, or Engineering.  The other folks were English, History, PolySci majors.  All did very well.

[GGGG]

Indeed, that was tried and true philosophy when I worked for Andersen (Accenture.)    What you majored in didn't matter one bit for hiring purposes.  If you were a successful student (typically 3.5 gpa or above) and interviewed well .. they hired you under the idea that .. smart people can learn just about anything.

As a consultant, which, often for the first 1-2 years you were doing some sort of computer programming, 60% or so were your classic majors, like Business, CompSci, or Engineering.  The other folks were English, History, PolySci majors.  All did very well.

When I was at MU, in the late 80s, the College of A&C placed many people at Quad/Graphics.  Quad hired liberal arts degree alums for almost all of its positions, outside of specialist areas like accounting, because they believed that they were more innovative than what came out of business schools.

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

Ditto.

Seriously, buddy, how is triple majoring a "problem"?

Can you read? I suggest you try to read my posts before you respond.

[GGGG]

Seriously, buddy, how is triple majoring a "problem"?

Well if you don't do a damn thing with it except sit and whine about how much you paid and how little you got in return, you've got a problem.

HTH.

[Ari Gold]

@ warrior07 -->

Where do you work?