#6 UCLA, #10 Memphis & #16 Kansas STILL haven't beaten a ranked team

[bamamarquettefan]

While Marquette's loss to Nova leaves us 5-2 against ESPN ranked teams, that is still the 2nd most victories behind UConn, which went to 8-1 with the win over Syracuse.  As I wrote for Cracked Sidewalks last week the, the "Who has Marquette beaten?" argument is pretty ridiculous when you realize that #6 UCLA has a worse record than Marquette AND is 0-3 against ranked teams after losing to ASU last night, and Kansas' loss to Missouri the night before left both them and #10 Memphis 0-3 against ranked teams as well.  The current ESPN top 25 in order of wins against ranked teams this year:

Connecticut  8 - 1
 Marquette  5 - 2
 Oklahoma  4 - 0
 North Carolina  4 - 1
 Syracuse  4 - 5
 Wake Forest  3 - 0
 Missouri 3 - 0
 Louisville  3 - 1
 Michigan State  3 - 1
 Washington  3 - 1
 Pittsburgh  3 - 2
 Gonzaga  3 - 2
 Duke  3 - 3
 Villanova  3 - 4
 Arizona State  2 - 0
 Clemson  2 - 2
 Purdue  2 - 2
 Florida State 2 - 3
 Utah State  1 - 1
 Butler  1 - 1
 Xavier  1 - 1
 Illinois  1 - 3
 Memphis  0 - 3
 Kansas  0 - 3
 UCLA  0 - 3

[1990Warrior]

Just goes to prove that some teams have helium in their names and others have lead.

[The Lens]

Your facts are irrelevant to this discussion.  My opinions are what count, we still suck!

[MarquetteDano]

Great post Bama.  Interesting seeing those numbers.  People have said "who have we played?" but always needs to be backed up with "who have other teams played?"  We see it here.

This is going to be an interesting NCAA tourney this year, as the supposed top tier teams are beatable this year.  The next tier down (which I like to believe we fit in) are very beatable.  It is truly going to be wide open this year.

[fjg44]

I know that MU can't determine how a team does after they play them, but Georgetown, WV, ND and Wisconsin are no longer ranked.  I think this is where people are getting their argument from.  That deflates their record against currently ranked teams to 1-1.

UCLA has 2 losses to Arizona State. AZS is still ranked. Texas is their only other loss and is no longer ranked.  It puts their record at 0-2 against currently ranked teams.

I am not going to do this for all teams, but if someone wants to do that go right ahead.  Because the rankings change every week and are so fluid "wins vs ranked teams" does not create a true picture of quality wins.  I know this only gives you 25 teams (24 if you are ranked). That is why we have RPI and all of the other stats to judge college basketball teams with.

That being said, I know that MU has played very well so far this season.  The team will be tested in these last 7 games and when the dust settles in BE we will see where MU stands.

[bamamarquettefan]

That is the contrary argument, but I still think it is a truer test to beat a team while they are ranked/hot, than beat a team that later moves into the rankings.  The other problem with going with the current rankings is that you penalize the teams that destroy and opponent and knock them out of the Top 25 immediately, or help send them on a spiral that eventually knocks them out.  When Georgetown was ranked, UConn, Memphis and Syracuse all fell to them.  As bad as Notre Dame has been on the road since we beat them, they were still ranked and flying high with the longest home win streak in the land until UConn and MU came into South Bend and sent them reeling, so I still contend on their home court they were clearly one of the toughest 25 teams to beat on their home court - and frankly they showed that again when Louisville came to town last night. If we hadn't embarrassed WVU by 22, they would have stayed in the rankings.  I just still contend that beating a team when they are ranked is more impressive than beating a team that isn't playing well but catches fire a month later and so is ranked much later in the season after you beat them.  I am glad to see ESPN has started to put up more info about team's records against ranked teams before games. 

[PE8983]

What about Memphis blowing out Gonzaga in Washington?

[fjg44]

I just still contend that beating a team when they are ranked is more impressive than beating a team that isn't playing well but catches fire a month later and so is ranked much later in the season after you beat them.  I am glad to see ESPN has started to put up more info about team's records against ranked teams before games. 

The problem with this is that the preseason ranking are so random.  They do have a basis, but some teams drop out the first week and never sniff the top 25 for the rest of the year.

I do agree with you that it is better to beat a hot team instead of them get hot later in the season, but then you have to agree that beating a top 25 team in the first couple weeks of the season also doesn't have as much weight as beating a top 25 team 10 weeks into the season.

I do think that beating a ranked team at home should have more weight as well.  ND was a big win on their court for MU.  I don't care how many losses they strung together.

[MuMark]

Their is no exact way to measure what is a good win or what isn't.

I think what pisses off many MU fans is we seem to get no credit for beating teams that some other ranked teams couldn't beat.

We beat Geoergetown.

They beat: 21-3 Memphis and 23-1 UCONN

We beat NC State
They beat 18-4 Wake

We beat Wisconsin.

They beat Illinois(Michigan was ranked as well when they beat them)

We beat West Virginia by 22.
They beat Ohio State by 28.

We beat ND
They crushed Louisville and beat Texas when they were ranked.

We have beaten some teams that were good enough to beat other good and sometimes great teams.

Just because a team isn't ranked doesn't mean they aren't good ,talented, and dangerous.

[Hards Alumni]

Tournament wins matter, rankings do not.

[Lennys Tap]

You hit the nail on the head MuMark. Those who underrated this team or sold Buzz short have and will put every win or loss in its worst possible light. Ergo, ND, Gtown and Wisconsin don't count because they fell out of the rankings after they played MU. Providence and Cincinnati don't count because they weren't supposed to be any good. Villanova and WVU don't count because they were at home. If you apply the same type scrutiny to almost any other college team you can make the case that they've accomplished even less than some of our fans think MU has.

[reinko]

Tournament wins matter, rankings do not.

Agreed that tournament wins matter more.  But where you are ranked can positively affect a teams tournament winning chances.  Rankings can affect how much the team is TV.  Highly rated recuirts want to play for teams that have that little # next to their team name.

[damuts222]

Keep in mind that when the tournament committee gets together in March there is a thought process of "what have you done for me lately." Marquette's last 5 games as well as the BE tourney will play a part in that. If MU falters in their last stretch of games they will still make the tourney but their tourney rank will drop as a result. Losing and beating ranked teams depends on the margin as well, UNC beat up Duke, ND beat up Louisville, yet NOVA beat up MU, and I think its fair to say that Dayton and Tennessee did as well. I very much agree with Bama and MuMark, yet I believe the argument that MuMark is a classic example of believing in the notion that because Marquette beat Gtown and Gtown beat UCONN it will result in MU beating UCONN.

[dsfire]

I would have no qualms about being known as a team that knocks others out of the top 25, even if it meant our record against current top 25 teams suffered.

[bilsu]

Our strength of schedule would be very good if we would stop playing teams expected to be ranked 275 and over. Get rid of the non-conference games against these teams.

[Mayor McCheese]

Memphis beat Gonzaga... who was/is ranked.

But yeah, otherwise they haven't played anyone

[bamamarquettefan]

Good catch MayorMcCheese, Gonzaga had returned to the Top 25 by the time Memphis beat them, so Memphis is 1-3 against Top 25 teams.

Gonzaga had dropped out of the Top 25 on January 5 after losing to Portland State (107th place in Pomeroy, lower than USF), and then they lost to Utah and stayed out of the Top 25 for three weeks, but did re-emerge on January 26, almost two weeks before losing to Memphis.

Also agree with bilsu.  As I mentioned in an earlier post, the average top 25 team has played FIVE teams out of the Top 200, and we have played SEVEN.  May not sound like two extra freebee wins are that big a deal, but when you crunch the Strength of Schedule and RPI numbers, those games just kill our ranking and make us look bad.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Those who underrated this team or sold Buzz short have and will put every win or loss in its worst possible light. Ergo, ND, Gtown and Wisconsin don't count because they fell out of the rankings after they played MU.

And what would be the opposite actions by folks with a different view?      Perhaps overhyping those teams, the coach, etc?  Seems to me it works both ways.

[Lennys Tap]

Actually Chicos, I also underrated this team and figured them for 9-9 or10-8 in the conference. My concerns were no size, no depth and an untested coach. We still have no size and the depth problem is worse than imagined. Thankfully, my final concern has turned into a positive and I believe the main reason to HAPPILY admit that I was wrong. You seem to not be happy about being wrong. As an MU fan I don't get that.

[bamamarquettefan]

Chicos - with columnists that have nothing to do with Marquette saying that Buzz was without question the national coach of the year, it wasn't MU fans overhyping him.  Now if the team doesn't bounce back from these two losses well, then he may not get it, but I don't think anyone overhyped the team at the outset.  Sure, the season has peaks and valleys and we get excited during the peaks, but at 20-4 and 9-2 in the best conference in the US, there is a lot to be excited about.

[sigep80]

Bama - the other thing I notice out of your chart is the number of top 25 teams that the BEast teams play.  Only Duke outside of the BEast has played more than 5 ranked teams.  Uconn, MU, Villanova and Syracuse are the top 4 teams.

Says a lot about the strength of the conference.