Half of Top 25 had worse performances than our USF loss this week

[bamamarquettefan]

For the few naysayers out there who are ready to quit after one 1-point loss on the road - 12 of the other 24 ranked teams had WORSE performances that MU this week.  So don't buy the garbage about MU not playing anyone yet and being overrated.  I'll take our 1-point loss over any of these performances:

25. Washington blown out by unranked California 71-86
21. Illinois whipped 50-63 by the Wisconsin team that was one of our "haven't played anybody wins"
20. Syracuse embarrassed 85-102 to the #16 Villanova team that was another one of our "haven't beaten anyone wins"
17. Texas losing two 2 unranked teams, 65-69 Texas, 55-58 to Missouri
13. Purdue beaten 72-80 by an Ohio State team that lost by more than twenty at home to WVU, which lost by more than 20 to Marquette
11. Butler beaten 66-75 by Green Bay
10. Clemson losing 61-65 at home to Florida State
9. Xavier losing 68-72 to Duquesne
8. MU losing the closest game on this list, 56-57 at S. Florida
7. Louisville being blown out 51-68 by #1 UConn
6. Wake Forest getting embarrassed 52-79 to Miami
3. Duke getting humbled 47-74 to Clemson, and then needing overtime AT HOME to beat Miami
2. Oklahoma the only winner on this list, and barely with 77-72 wins over Texas A&M and 77-71 AT HOME to Colorado, which is ranked 53 spots lower than South Florida in Pomroy.  The average differences between playing home and away is 9 points, meaning its likely Oklahoma would have probably lost to both of these teams if they didn't happen to be at home this week.

The week after being named the Team of the Week by ESPN, MU was still better than half of the top 25 this week.  Thirteen teams had lousy performances.

We had one of 11 losses to unranked team, and we were the only game that came down to the wire.

I'd ask any of the people who think the USF game proves we aren't any good to tell me which of these 12 ranked teams played better than us in their worst game this year.

Yes, the USF game makes a tough win at Villanova more important, but let's just focus rooting MU on to a big road win Tuesday night.

GO MARQUETTE!

[chapman]

We won't be plummeting in the rankings with all the teams above and below us that lost.  But going 4-24 on three pointers and 10-23 free throws against mostly any team on that list and it's still probably a loss because USF is bad.  Any good team beats a team that shoots that badly by 20 or 30.

[MarquetteDano]

Bama,

  Great post.  Reminds me of seeing some posts on JustinTv (watching USF game on-line) saying Marquette is not a Top 25 team, or the haven't beaten anyone good.  This comment could be said about 20 of the Top 25 teams.  Same thing with some of analysts.  Many of them explain why a team shouldn't be considered as good as they are... then need to back that up with what teams should take their place.  When they argue for their team, one can usually make the same argument about the team they've selected.

[77ncaachamps]

I said it to your other post (much like this one) and I'll say it again: It puts the USF loss in perspective, but it STILL stings.

[ChicosBailBonds]

For the few naysayers out there who are ready to quit after one 1-point loss on the road - 12 of the other 24 ranked teams had WORSE performances that MU this week.  So don't buy the garbage about MU not playing anyone yet and being overrated.  I'll take our 1-point loss over any of these performances:

25. Washington blown out by unranked California 71-86
21. Illinois whipped 50-63 by the Wisconsin team that was one of our "haven't played anybody wins"
20. Syracuse embarrassed 85-102 to the #16 Villanova team that was another one of our "haven't beaten anyone wins"
17. Texas losing two 2 unranked teams, 65-69 Texas, 55-58 to Missouri
13. Purdue beaten 72-80 by an Ohio State team that lost by more than twenty at home to WVU, which lost by more than 20 to Marquette
11. Butler beaten 66-75 by Green Bay
10. Clemson losing 61-65 at home to Florida State
9. Xavier losing 68-72 to Duquesne
8. MU losing the closest game on this list, 56-57 at S. Florida
7. Louisville being blown out 51-68 by #1 UConn
6. Wake Forest getting embarrassed 52-79 to Miami
3. Duke getting humbled 47-74 to Clemson, and then needing overtime AT HOME to beat Miami
2. Oklahoma the only winner on this list, and barely with 77-72 wins over Texas A&M and 77-71 AT HOME to Colorado, which is ranked 53 spots lower than South Florida in Pomroy.  The average differences between playing home and away is 9 points, meaning its likely Oklahoma would have probably lost to both of these teams if they didn't happen to be at home this week.

The week after being named the Team of the Week by ESPN, MU was still better than half of the top 25 this week.  Thirteen teams had lousy performances.

We had one of 11 losses to unranked team, and we were the only game that came down to the wire.

I'd ask any of the people who think the USF game proves we aren't any good to tell me which of these 12 ranked teams played better than us in their worst game this year.

Yes, the USF game makes a tough win at Villanova more important, but let's just focus rooting MU on to a big road win Tuesday night.

GO MARQUETTE!

I'd have to disagree with most on your list.  Cal has a winning record (18-6) and is likely going to the NCAAs.  Wisconsin has a winning record and still tough at home.  Villanova has a winning record and tough at home, they'll beat us on Tuesday.  FSU has a winning record.  Ohio State has a winning record.  Texas A&M has a winning record.  UConn is the #1 team in America.  Texas lost to Nebraska and Missouri, at least both of them have winning records.  Duquense....winning record.

Our loss was to a team that was 2-7 in the league and 7-14 overall.  Almost every comparison you have on your list are top 25 teams losing to winning teams.  We lost to a team that is obviously better than their record, but let's not get carried away here.  They're still 7-14 and to compare them to the teams that beat or played tough against the rest of the top 25 this week is just not a good comparison.

Let's put it this way, what top 25 team this week had the worst loss in terms of who they lost to?

I can't imagine it would be anyone other than MU?  Certainly as a top 10 team.

[Tugg Speedman]

Let's put it this way, what top 25 team this week had the worst loss in terms of who they lost to?
I can't imagine it would be anyone other than MU?  Certainly as a top 10 team.

USF plays in the Big East.  If they still played in C-USA, the A-10 or the Horizon League, they would be above .500

17. Texas losing two 2 unranked teams
11. Butler beaten 66-75 by Green Bay
9. Xavier losing 68-72 to Duquesne
3. Duke getting humbled 47-74 to Clemson

[bamamarquettefan]

Certainly agree that many of these teams are better than USF, but my point is when you are the No. 3 team in the league and you lose by 27-points to even a very good team, that is a much worse loss than a 1-point loss on the road to a poor team.  Most of these are "I don't belong on the court with this team, losses."

Likewise, on average there is a 9-point swing between home and road.
So if Louisville lost by 1 on the road to UConn, of course that would be a much better game than us losing by 1 on the road to USF.  But they didn't, Louisville lost by 17 AT HOME to UConn, so probably would have lost by 26 if they were on the road like us, and to me that is a much worse loss than a tip-in not going.  That's an "I cannot possibly compete with this team loss," not a "darn, Lazar's stickback hit the back of the rim or we'd be No. 5 in the country loss."

Oklahoma probably gets two losses to unranked teams in one week if they aren't at home to pull off nailbiters against Texas A&M and Missouri, and two losses to unranked teams is worse than one loss to a worse unranked team.

As for Xavier, Duquesne may have a better record than USF, but they are ranked virtually even in Pomeroy because they don't play nearly the same schedule, and if you watched that game they controlled Xavier and only a few late 3-point Hail Mary's that went in by Xavier got it down to four.  Playing a team ranked virtually even with Duquesne around No. 100 in the country, we lost off the back of the rim.

And my other point is not to be hypocritical.  Wisconsin, West Virginia (which in turn romped at OSU) and Villanova can't be nothing wins when Marquette beats them, but tough opponents when someone else loses to them.

My fear through all these "haven't beaten anyone arguments," all along was that as soon as we lost to anyone, whether it by USF, Nova or UConn, even some of our own fans were ready to say, "that proves it, we haven't beaten anyone."  And my point is we are 5-1 against ranked teams.  Sure, we've knocked three teams out of the rankings and sent them reeling when we took them apart, but we beat them while they were ranked.  A friend of mine, Riki Ellison, who won a national title as a linebacker at USC and three Super Bowls always told me it's much harder to beat a team while they are ranked than to say to beat a team that later got hot later in the season and got ranked way after you played them.  He said, "When you beat a team you expose their weaknesses in ways that every future opponents sees in their scouting reports.  You break their will and destroy the confidence they had coming into your game that they are a good enough team to be ranked.  If you beat a highly ranked team early in the season, you break their will and they might go .500 because of the loss to you."

I doubt any other team in the Top 25 is 5-1 against ranked teams like we are.  I can tell you no team in Marquette history has started a season 5-1 against ranked teams.  The only other team in MU history to ever beat 6 ranked teams in one season is the 1977 team, which went 6-5 against ranked teams.

As for Nova, I've always thought that would be a tough win, regardless of the USF game, but for Pete's sake, don't write us off before the opening tip.  If we win that game the USF loss will mean almost nothing.  And if we lose at Nova I guess you can post and tell us all you told us so, but do you really feel such a great victory in assuring us all we can't win at Nova?

[bamamarquettefan]

I hit post without checking AnotherMU84's post.  Agree with YOU completely AnotherMU84!  The "disagree" in my subjectfield was obviously with Chico "I'm staking my reputation on Nova killing MU Tuesday" BailBonds.

[statnik]

Certainly agree that many of these teams are better than USF, but my point is when you are the No. 3 team in the league and you lose by 27-points to even a very good team, that is a much worse loss than a 1-point loss on the road to a poor team.  Most of these are "I don't belong on the court with this team, losses."

Likewise, on average there is a 9-point swing between home and road.
So if Louisville lost by 1 on the road to UConn, of course that would be a much better game than us losing by 1 on the road to USF.  But they didn't, Louisville lost by 17 AT HOME to UConn, so probably would have lost by 26 if they were on the road like us, and to me that is a much worse loss than a tip-in not going.  That's an "I cannot possibly compete with this team loss," not a "darn, Lazar's stickback hit the back of the rim or we'd be No. 5 in the country loss."

Oklahoma probably gets two losses to unranked teams in one week if they aren't at home to pull off nailbiters against Texas A&M and Missouri, and two losses to unranked teams is worse than one loss to a worse unranked team.

As for Xavier, Duquesne may have a better record than USF, but they are ranked virtually even in Pomeroy because they don't play nearly the same schedule, and if you watched that game they controlled Xavier and only a few late 3-point Hail Mary's that went in by Xavier got it down to four.  Playing a team ranked virtually even with Duquesne around No. 100 in the country, we lost off the back of the rim.

And my other point is not to be hypocritical.  Wisconsin, West Virginia (which in turn romped at OSU) and Villanova can't be nothing wins when Marquette beats them, but tough opponents when someone else loses to them.

My fear through all these "haven't beaten anyone arguments," all along was that as soon as we lost to anyone, whether it by USF, Nova or UConn, even some of our own fans were ready to say, "that proves it, we haven't beaten anyone."  And my point is we are 5-1 against ranked teams.  Sure, we've knocked three teams out of the rankings and sent them reeling when we took them apart, but we beat them while they were ranked.  A friend of mine, Riki Ellison, who won a national title as a linebacker at USC and three Super Bowls always told me it's much harder to beat a team while they are ranked than to say to beat a team that later got hot later in the season and got ranked way after you played them.  He said, "When you beat a team you expose their weaknesses in ways that every future opponents sees in their scouting reports.  You break their will and destroy the confidence they had coming into your game that they are a good enough team to be ranked.  If you beat a highly ranked team early in the season, you break their will and they might go .500 because of the loss to you."

I doubt any other team in the Top 25 is 5-1 against ranked teams like we are.  I can tell you no team in Marquette history has started a season 5-1 against ranked teams.  The only other team in MU history to ever beat 6 ranked teams in one season is the 1977 team, which went 6-5 against ranked teams.

As for Nova, I've always thought that would be a tough win, regardless of the USF game, but for Pete's sake, don't write us off before the opening tip.  If we win that game the USF loss will mean almost nothing.  And if we lose at Nova I guess you can post and tell us all you told us so, but do you really feel such a great victory in assuring us all we can't win at Nova?

I agree with most of what you said.  The problem is, I don't think it would have mattered much ranking-wise if we lost to S. Florida by 1 or by 25, we probably will get penalized about the same.  Not fair, but it's probably the reality.  Also, you have a very good point about when we have beaten these teams.  We've faced a lot of teams recently coming off large losing streaks, like ND, Georgetown, and S. Florida.  Teams like those tend to play better than their record suggests because they are in must-win situations, so I think our 12-point win over GTown was particularly impressive, given that they came out shooting the lights out.

[Tugg Speedman]

We picked a good week to lose a game we should have won.  See what I wrote in the poll thread

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=12337.msg110180#msg110180


Let me more specific ... If MU dives 7 spots this week, what do you have these teams doing?

#11. Butler beaten 66-75 by Green Bay
#10. Clemson losing 61-65 at home to Florida State
#9. Xavier losing 68-72 to Duquesne
#6. Wake Forest getting embarrassed 52-79 to Miami
#3. Duke getting humbled 47-74 to Clemson, and then needing overtime AT HOME to beat Miami

Are they all diving 7 spots?  Counting MU, that is six teams.  If you believe this, name me the six teams moving up 7 spots to that their place?  Here are a seven teams NOT moving up:

#25. Washington blown out by unranked California 71-86
#21. Illinois whipped 50-63 by the Wisconsin
#20. Syracuse embarrassed 85-102 to the #16 Villanova
#19 Minnesota Lost to # 14 Michigan State 76-47 and Lost to Ohio State 64-58
#18 Gonzaga lost to #15 Memphis 68-50
#17. Texas losing two 2 unranked teams, 65-69 Texas, 55-58 to Missouri
#13. Purdue beaten 72-80 by an Ohio State team that lost by more than twenty at home to WVU

I've just covered 13 of the top 25.  Who else?

#7. Louisville holds serve at #7 because of its Uconn loss
#12 UCLA, #14 Mich State, #15 Memphis and #16 'Nova move up SLIGHTLY for beating teams they were favored to beat
#1, #2, #4, and #5 are too high to be affected by this conversation
#22, #23 and #24 all won (against teams they were favored to beat) and are too low to be affected by this conversation.

I've accounted for all of the top 25.  Their are no other teams (unless you want to make the case USF enters the rankings at #8).  Their is no way MU dives 7 spots unless the top 25 has the biggest re-ordering in its history.

[MarquetteDano]

Villanova has a winning record and tough at home, they'll beat us on Tuesday. 

Chicos,

  What happened to you?  I see at least two posts where you have confidently stated we will lose on Tuesday.  I understand making statements like "it is going to be rough" or "we will likely lose", but you make such a statement of fact that I can't help believe you hope Marquette loses so you are proven right.  Are you cheering for Marquette or Villanova on Tuesday?  And, if Marquette, and they lose, will the loss be "softened" by the fact that you were right and all those people, like me, who questioned you were wrong?

  This is my problem with some posters here.  They are more interested in being right than Marquette winning.  I hope you have not falling into that group Chicos.

[Tugg Speedman]

Chicos,

  What happened to you?  I see at least two posts where you have confidently stated we will lose on Tuesday.  I understand making statements like "it is going to be rough" or "we will likely lose", but you make such a statement of fact that I can't help believe you hope Marquette loses so you are proven right.  Are you cheering for Marquette or Villanova on Tuesday?  And, if Marquette, and they lose, will the loss be "softened" by the fact that you were right and all those people, like me, who questioned you were wrong?

  This is my problem with some posters here.  They are more interested in being right than Marquette winning.  I hope you have not falling into that group Chicos.

Three weeks ago Chico was dismissing MU because they had not beaten anyone.  "Anyone" included 'Nova at the time.  When we beat them, it doesn't count.  When we lose to them (as Chico is predicting), the basketball program should be discointinued.

Which is it Chico?

[4everwarriors]

Doesn't matter. Any way you choose to slice it this is considered a bad loss in the eyes of the committee. For this year's team in particular, tournament seating is crucial for success in March. The losses to Dayton and UT, while not as "bad" will hurt the Warriors' resume also.

[lorthneeda]

Doesn't matter. Any way you choose to slice it this is considered a bad loss in the eyes of the committee. For this year's team in particular, tournament seating is crucial for success in March. The losses to Dayton and UT, while not as "bad" will hurt the Warriors' resume also.

I'm trying to figure out how the Dayton and Tennessee losses would be considered "bad."  They are both probably going to make the tournament.

[bs4173]

I'm trying to figure out how the Dayton and Tennessee losses would be considered "bad."  They are both probably going to make the tournament.

Assuming they beat Charlotte today, Dayton's definitely going to break the Top 25 tomorrow.

[Warrior1969]

Have you seen Tenn play lately, they are no lock for the NCAA, certainly on the bubble at the moment.

[ChicosBailBonds]

USF plays in the Big East.  If they still played in C-USA, the A-10 or the Horizon League, they would be above .500

17. Texas losing two 2 unranked teams
11. Butler beaten 66-75 by Green Bay
9. Xavier losing 68-72 to Duquesne
3. Duke getting humbled 47-74 to Clemson

Considering South Florida has already lost to the following teams this year:

UAB (CUSA)
Central Florida (CUSA)
Niagara by 15 in Tampa (Metro Atlantic League)
Wright State (Horizon League)
Oral Roberts (Summit League)

I'm not sure I'd agree that they would be tearing it up anywhere else.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I hit post without checking AnotherMU84's post.  Agree with YOU completely AnotherMU84!  The "disagree" in my subjectfield was obviously with Chico "I'm staking my reputation on Nova killing MU Tuesday" BailBonds.

I'm sorry, can you show me where I said Nova will kill MU on Tuesday?   I'd like to see that.  I said I think Nova will beat us on Tuesday.  If we're going to use examples, let's at least be accurate.  Thanks.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Chicos,

  What happened to you?  I see at least two posts where you have confidently stated we will lose on Tuesday.  I understand making statements like "it is going to be rough" or "we will likely lose", but you make such a statement of fact that I can't help believe you hope Marquette loses so you are proven right.  Are you cheering for Marquette or Villanova on Tuesday?  And, if Marquette, and they lose, will the loss be "softened" by the fact that you were right and all those people, like me, who questioned you were wrong?

  This is my problem with some posters here.  They are more interested in being right than Marquette winning.  I hope you have not falling into that group Chicos.

Dano, I love this team like anyone else  Cheer wildly for it.  I just think we'll lose Tuesday, that's all.  I hope like hell we win, but I do think we'll lose.

I try not to get too high or too low during the season.  I believe those that were ready to christen the team as a Final Four material are wrong and COY stuff, etc, etc are just wrong.  I love the excitement they have, but I just think they are wrong about it.

I love the three seniors and Lazar, love the new offense.  Think the defense is sketchy as a team, though individually some have really locked down this year. 

But at the end of the day, I look at who we have beaten and our overall record and there are still some holes there for me. 

That's all....trust me, I'll never give up cheering for the team.  You should have seen me in my office against USF on Friday as all my co-workers were laughing their asses off that I was getting so into a game where a top 10 team was struggling against USF.  I was screaming hard.

[MarquetteDano]

Dano, I love this team like anyone else  Cheer wildly for it.  I just think we'll lose Tuesday, that's all.  I hope like hell we win, but I do think we'll lose.

I try not to get too high or too low during the season.  I believe those that were ready to christen the team as a Final Four material are wrong and COY stuff, etc, etc are just wrong.  I love the excitement they have, but I just think they are wrong about it.

I love the three seniors and Lazar, love the new offense.  Think the defense is sketchy as a team, though individually some have really locked down this year. 

But at the end of the day, I look at who we have beaten and our overall record and there are still some holes there for me. 

That's all....trust me, I'll never give up cheering for the team.  You should have seen me in my office against USF on Friday as all my co-workers were laughing their asses off that I was getting so into a game where a top 10 team was struggling against USF.  I was screaming hard.

I'm with you.  My wife was making fun on me when she came home to find my at my desk standing yelling at the computer (had the game on-line).

[Tugg Speedman]

Let's put it this way, what top 25 team this week had the worst loss in terms of who they lost to?

I can't imagine it would be anyone other than MU?  Certainly as a top 10 team.

Ok, this week you may have a point about THIS WEEK but just barely ...

#8 MU loses by 1 to USF ranked 104 (Pomeroy)
#9 Xavier loses by 4 to Duquesne ranked 98 (Pomeroy)
#11 Butler loses by 9 to Green Bay ranked #76 (Pomeroy)

The quality of these losses are rounding errors when compared to each other.  If you think MU should fall seven spots this week, then you also think Xavier and Butler shoud do the same.  If just this happened, it would represent a massive re-ordering of the top 25.

Looking beyond this week Oklahoma, now rated #2, has one loss this year to 114 ranked (Pomeroy) Arkansas.  A much worse loss than failing to stick back against USF.  So, MU's loss is not the worst loss by a top ten team this year.  It's barely the wrost by a top ten team this week!

And, Oklahoma proves you can lose to a team not in the top 100 and still make a run as a #1 seed.

It all starts Tuesday when we beat 'nova.  Do that and this entire conversation becomes moot. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

Ok, this week you may have a point about THIS WEEK but just barely ...

#8 MU loses by 1 to USF ranked 104 (Pomeroy)
#9 Xavier loses by 4 to Duquesne ranked 98 (Pomeroy)
#11 Butler loses by 9 to Green Bay ranked #76 (Pomeroy)

The quality of these losses are rounding errors when compared to each other.  If you think MU should fall seven spots this week, then you also think Xavier and Butler shoud do the same.  If just this happened, it would represent a massive re-ordering of the top 25.

Looking beyond this week Oklahoma, now rated #2, has one loss this year to 114 ranked (Pomeroy) Arkansas.  A much worse loss than failing to stick back against USF.  So, MU's loss is not the worst loss by a top ten team this year.  It's barely the wrost by a top ten team this week!

And, Oklahoma proves you can lose to a team not in the top 100 and still make a run as a #1 seed.

It all starts Tuesday when we beat 'nova.  Do that and this entire conversation becomes moot. 

The real world doesn't look at Pomeroy.  They see Butler, a clear mid-major, losing on the road to another mid-major.  They see Xavier, in a mid-major conference (even though I don't consider Xavier mid-major) and losing to another winning team on the road.  They see Marquette, in first place in the Big East go play the 2nd to last place team and lose.

That's why we'll take the hit bigger than anyone else.

I agree, we beat Nova and it takes care of itself.  I wish I had the confidence to suggest we will win on Tuesday.  Tough game on the road.

[warrior_jr]

Just want to throw this out there:  Buzz was on the radio about a month ago saying that the Dayton loss was important in getting the players to understand why they need to show up for every game, even against those that they are heavily favored to win.  After a really poor showing against Depaul (had we played that way against anyone else in the conference I think we may have lost), followed by a loss at USF, I think you could make the case that the team needed a reason to get fired up again. 

What I mean is, maybe there is a positive to be drawn from this loss.  Or maybe I'm reaching really hard because I want there to be a positive...

[ChicosBailBonds]

I, for one, am glad we're playing Nova next and not St. John's or the Hall at home.  I like the fact we have a very challenging road game coming up.

[warrior_jr]

Why's that?  I don't disagree, I'm just curious.