McNeal is Outplaying Wade Right Now

[Niv Berkowitz]

As crazy as it is to say, and I never thought I would say this, someone is having a better season than D.Wade's final year at MU. And that person is Jerel McNeal.

Jerel is shooting almost 60% from three point range in the Big East. That's absolutely unheard of. Combined with his D, passing, and ability to always be around the ball, I think he's playing better than D.

[lab_warrior]

I wonder what if his efficiency compares to Wade's.  His points came very free and easy last night, including the 3pt shots...that's what reminds me most of Wade.

[normandy]

Dwade Stats 02-03 21.5 ppg, 4.4 apg, 6.3 rpg, 1.3 bpg, 2.2 spg on 50.1% shooting and 2003 Conference USA Defensive player of the year.

Jerel McNeal 20 ppg, 3.8 apg, 4.6 rpg, .8 bpg, 2.1 spg on 49% shooting.

Take a look at the stats, not so fast with the playing better than wade opinions.

However, I realize stats do not tell the entire story, but just from my perspective wade was better at this point of his career. 
Also, Wade was more feared from an opponents perspective.  In 2003 teams went into games trying to focus on stopping wade, usually unsuccessfully but that was the mo.

This year i do not think opponents first thoughts are we have to stop McNeal.  I guess that is a commentary on the balance of this years team compared to 2003. 

I think that point also shows how great wade was because teams main objective was to stop wade and nobody was able to.

That being said mcneal is having an excellent year but just not as good as wades 03.     

[rocky_warrior]

However, I realize stats do not tell the entire story, but just from my perspective wade was better at this point of his career. 

Well, technically, at this point in his career (compared to McNeal), Wade was playing his first year in the NBA

However, you also touch on it - Wade also had the advantage of Diener outside, and Jackson inside to open things up for him.  I'm not saying this makes NcNeal as good as or better than Wade.  But clearly, the 03 team was more balanced than this one, so it's hard to compare.

[Ready2Fly]

Dwade Stats 02-03 21.5 ppg, 4.4 apg, 6.3 rpg, 1.3 bpg, 2.2 spg on 50.1% shooting and 2003 Conference USA Defensive player of the year.

Jerel McNeal 20 ppg, 3.8 apg, 4.6 rpg, .8 bpg, 2.1 spg on 49% shooting.

Take a look at the stats, not so fast with the playing better than wade opinions.

However, I realize stats do not tell the entire story, but just from my perspective wade was better at this point of his career. 
Also, Wade was more feared from an opponents perspective.  In 2003 teams went into games trying to focus on stopping wade, usually unsuccessfully but that was the mo.

This year i do not think opponents first thoughts are we have to stop McNeal.  I guess that is a commentary on the balance of this years team compared to 2003. 

I think that point also shows how great wade was because teams main objective was to stop wade and nobody was able to.

That being said mcneal is having an excellent year but just not as good as wades 03.     

If you break it down to conference play only, through 9 games in the Big East, McNeal is having a better year than Wade's in CUSA.  That's definitely saying something.

McNeal (through 9 games in BE):
24.1 PPG  4.8 APG  4.6 RPG  2.6 SPG  1.2 BPG  51% FG  54% 3P  75% FT

Wade (through 16 games in CUSA):
20.4 PPG  4.2 APG  6.3 RPG  2.4 SPG  1.6 BPG  48% FG  26.3% 3P  80%FT

Wade leads significantly in rebounds and slightly in blocks and FT%.  That's it.  McNeal's conference play has been otherworldly.

[Niv Berkowitz]

From a conference standpoint, let's not forget:

CUSA vs. Big East

I think that also puts things in McNeal's advantage

[Ready2Fly]

From a conference standpoint, let's not forget:

CUSA vs. Big East

I think that also puts things in McNeal's advantage

Exactly.  I don't think anyone is saying McNeal will be better than Wade in the NBA, just that the season he's having is off-the-charts good.

[Henry Sugar]

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=jerel-mcneal&chart=offensive_rating_pct&p1=dwyane-wade#chart

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?p1=dwyane-wade&p2=jerel-mcneal&chart=rebounds_defensive_pct&chart2=--+Select+a+Stat+--#chart

compare for yourselves across lots of categories...  Just as a quick scan

Usage - Wade
ORtg - McNeal
FTR - Wade
TS% - McNeal
OR% - Wade
DR% - Wade
Steals - Wade
A% - Wade
TO - McNeal

But a lot of the categories are close.  Niv may actually be onto something here.  It's almost sacrilege to suggest it, but the numbers seem to back him up.

[Niv Berkowitz]

..and I'm not saying this to discredit DWade, just to call out to everyone that this type of season by Jerel is insane and we thought we'd never see the likes of one again.

One other thing to Henry - and I don't know if this can be proven statistically - is....does McNeal's supporting cast of Matthews, James and Hayward make it even more incredible of a year than D.Wade? After all, with D Wade, you had Diener, Novak on the bench and Robert Jackson down low. But he had NOBODY of the caliber across the board as Matthews, James and Hayward.

Considering how much those three are scoring and contributing, it's even - to me - more incredible. I mean, there's only one ball to go around.

[Dr Radical]

The numbers are leaning to McNeal (strength of conference considered), though I have to think Wade was asked to do more than McNeal. R-Jax and Diener were solid players, but Wade was option 1, 2, and 3 on offense on that team. McNeal has more to defer to....

That being said, Normandy is a fool.

[MDMU04]

I tend to think that the supporting cast argument works more in Wade's favor than in McNeal's.  The supporting cast (if that's how you want to frame the argument) around McNeal necessitates that teams can't simply guard Jerel and let the rest of the team beat them.

This season, opponents cannot game plan to stop one of the 4 offensive threats on the floor.  If a team played to stop McNeal, either Matthews or Hayward would be left open more and would score more points to compensate.  As a consequence, McNeal sees a lot more man-to-man matchups (most of which he can easily dominate) or zone defenses (which he can simply step back and shoot over).

In 2002-03, almost the entire offense ran through Wade.  He either scored off of set plays ran for him, created his own shots off the dribble/drives to the basket, or drew defenders off his teammates and passed them the ball for open shots.

This was because he was the best option for MU on offense.  There were no other players on the 02-03 team for which opponents needed to game-plan.  Wade was often matched up against the best defensive player on opposing teams, and faced defenses designed to provide help to defenders guarding him.

The only other consistent scoring threats (the ability to score 20+ points in any given game) on the 02-03 team were Jackson and Diener.  Novak had a more limited role that season, and didn't find his consistent shooting stroke until later that season.  Jackson and Diener were somewhat limited in their roles on the team.  Jackson was great under the basket, but his game was strictly confined to that area.  Diener was still primarily a spot-up jump shooter and was not yet as agressive at creating his own shots as he became later in his MU career.

It cannot be discounted that McNeal is putting up these numbers against better talent than Wade faced in CUSA.

That being said, if you take Wade off the 02-03 MU team and replace him with McNeal, I do not believe that team would be as successful as they were.  I am fairly confident that if you took McNeal off this 08-09 squad and replaced him with the 02-03 version of Wade, this team would be better than they are currently.

I think it's an interesting thought.  The fact that a comparison can even be made is pretty incredible and a definite testament to the player that Jerel has become.

[legacy]

I actually had the same thought yesterday as I was watching the game... McNeal has become almost Wade-like, and regardless of who has a better senior year, that is a great thing for Marquette basketball.  I wanted to make a few points:

- obviously, the huge advantage for McNeal is his three point shooting as has been pointed out
- comparing this year's Big East to Conference USA is apples and oranges, so McNeal's stats are even more impressive given the higher level of competition.
- tempering this, is that this year's team seems to play at a much higher pace than did the 02-03 team, where we had credible bigs in Jackson and Merritt. So any sort of per game statistics are slanted up for McNeal.
- I think Wade improved the play of others more than McNeal -- all energies were on stopping Wade, which opened up the three for Diener, Novak, Townsend, etc. and the dish for Jackson.
- in the end, if we needed two points at the end of a game -- as we did many times in 02-03 -- I'd rather have Wade.  If we needed 3 points at the end of the game, I'd rather have McNeal shooting.

One other thing, Jeff Goodman at foxsports.com has McNeal listed as 4th in his national POTY rankings, behind Griffin, Curry and Harden.  I can't understand why he'd be listed behind Harden other than Harden is viewed as the better pro prospect.  Harden's scoring, rebounding, and assists are slightly higher, but McNeal's defense (even statistics like blocks and steals) is much better.  Moreover, Marquette is having a better season in a tougher conference.  The only explanation is that Harden is viewed as a better pro prospect.

[Ready2Fly]

I tend to think that the supporting cast argument works more in Wade's favor than in McNeal's.  The supporting cast (if that's how you want to frame the argument) around McNeal necessitates that teams can't simply guard Jerel and let the rest of the team beat them.

This season, opponents cannot game plan to stop one of the 4 offensive threats on the floor.  If a team played to stop McNeal, either Matthews or Hayward would be left open more and would score more points to compensate.  As a consequence, McNeal sees a lot more man-to-man matchups (most of which he can easily dominate) or zone defenses (which he can simply step back and shoot over).

In 2002-03, almost the entire offense ran through Wade.  He either scored off of set plays ran for him, created his own shots off the dribble/drives to the basket, or drew defenders off his teammates and passed them the ball for open shots.

This was because he was the best option for MU on offense.  There were no other players on the 02-03 team for which opponents needed to game-plan.  Wade was often matched up against the best defensive player on opposing teams, and faced defenses designed to provide help to defenders guarding him.

The only other consistent scoring threats (the ability to score 20+ points in any given game) on the 02-03 team were Jackson and Diener.  Novak had a more limited role that season, and didn't find his consistent shooting stroke until later that season.  Jackson and Diener were somewhat limited in their roles on the team.  Jackson was great under the basket, but his game was strictly confined to that area.  Diener was still primarily a spot-up jump shooter and was not yet as agressive at creating his own shots as he became later in his MU career.

It cannot be discounted that McNeal is putting up these numbers against better talent than Wade faced in CUSA.

That being said, if you take Wade off the 02-03 MU team and replace him with McNeal, I do not believe that team would be as successful as they were.  I am fairly confident that if you took McNeal off this 08-09 squad and replaced him with the 02-03 version of Wade, this team would be better than they are currently.

I think it's an interesting thought.  The fact that a comparison can even be made is pretty incredible and a definite testament to the player that Jerel has become.

Excellent point.  I'm the biggest Wade fan there is.  I get ripped on for saying I'd take him over LeBron and I'm dead serious.  If the choice was between Wade and McNeal, I'd take Wade for both teams.

But I think if you watch their styles, then put their stats next to each other, there are some eerie similarities.  The way they shoot the passing lane for steals and come from behind for the block are identical.  Their instincts on both the defensive and offensive end are uncanny.  I never thought I'd see a 2 guard come along that stuffs the stat sheet across the board like Wade did.  Now that it's happening again, at Marquette no less, it's kinda freakin' me out.

[normandy]

Dr. Radical it seems to me like you are talking out of both sides of your mouth.  Your argument states wade is a better player because he was scoring option 1, 2, 3 in 2003.

Then you state normandy is a fool.  We have the same argument so if i am a fool you sir then are just as big a fool.

I have never seen such uninformed dribble on this board since chicos bail bonds posted on travis deiners explosive diarrhhea during the 03 final four

[legacy]

Dr. Radical it seems to me like you are talking out of both sides of your mouth.  Your argument states wade is a better player because he was scoring option 1, 2, 3 in 2003.

Then you state normandy is a fool.  We have the same argument so if i am a fool you sir then are just as big a fool.

I have never seen such uninformed dribble on this board since chicos bail bonds posted on travis deiners explosive diarrhhea during the 03 final four

I also didn't understand where the animosity was coming from.  It seemed like a fairly lighthearted, fun conversation.

[Badgerhater920]

Jerel has a better coach this year 

[bilsu]

Wade would have loved Buzz's offense. if you are going to compare Wade was really only a sophomore in eligibility as he could have been granted a fourth year.