Merry Christmas ...But somethings get old...

[Pakuni]

Indeed, some things do get old.

[bilsu]

There are a lot of reasons we were selected for the Big East.

The 1977 NCAA championship did not hurt us.
the 2003 final four did not hurt us.

But what really got us in is our tradition of having a successful clean program, which you can attribute to every coach and administration at MU, the fact that we were in a big city Milwaukee market and the fact that DePaul including Chicago market are 60 miles from Marquette. There is no way the Big East expands as far west as Milwaukee without also picking up Chicago.

[4everwarriors]

For all the exposure and charisma you claim Crean brought to MU, he still couldn't rec ruit a big man to save his life. In fact, given the FF bump, his recruiting flat out sucked. Buzz has him beaten on that level already.

[RedWebster]

Crean is about as charismatic as a fence post. His entire personality is gleamed from leadership books. 

[reinko]

I am curious what TC did to Red, 4ever, and MRHAYWARD. 

Did he steal your lady back in high school?  Run over your dog?  Burn your house down?  Take your mom out for a steak dinner and not call her?

We get it.  You thought he was snakeoil salesman. 

[🏀]

I am curious what TC did to Red, 4ever, and MRHAYWARD. 

Did he steal your lady back in high school?  Run over your dog?  Burn your house down?  Take your mom out for a steak lobster dinner and not call her?

We get it.  You thought he was snakeoil salesman. 

[4everwarriors]

Please don't insult snakeoil salesmen like that.

[IAmMarquette]

Mods, any chance we can get an "Ignore Thread" option to go along with the "Ignore User" button...?

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

For all the exposure and charisma you claim Crean brought to MU, he still couldn't rec ruit a big man to save his life. In fact, given the FF bump, his recruiting flat out sucked. Buzz has him beaten on that level already.

Crean's recruiting has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Don't twist this thread to meet your agenda.

You guys are letting your dislike of MU's previous coach cloud your judgment.

Tom Crean is not the sole reason that MU is in the Big East.

However, it's not like he had NOTHING to do with it. He certainly played a (big) part.

You 3 (red, 4ever, hayward) speak in such absolute terms that it's insane.

Also, you have a great habit if not responding to logical rebuttals, but rather just moving on to a new thread.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I'll repeat what Bill Cords told me in San Diego and again in Anaheim....we wouldn't be in the Big East without Tom Crean.  He said it was that simple.

Since he was the AD at the time we joined the Big East, I'll take his word on it.

By no means was he saying Crean was the only reason, that's never the case.  It takes committment by many people, money, etc.  But simply put, without Crean, we weren't going to be the Big East was the implication I got from him.

Don't underestimate what Bilsu is saying.

I realize a lot of you think Crean is Hitler but that doesn't change the facts we're in this conference, got to a Final Four, landed the current NBA's leading scorer, had the 2nd best run in MU history, graduated nearly everyone, etc, etc because of this guy. 

[The Lens]

I get a kick out of the fact TC could convince Mike Trangresse that he was staying at MU but he couldn't convince recruits (his shills will say his recruiting suffered b/c of the perception he was leaving) .

if we're throwing out absolutes I'll say we don't make the BE if Fr Wild doesn't modify student athlete requirements for a kid from Robbins, IL.

Finally, TC was an asset but so was not having a football team, so was not being located in Cinci (XU) or Dayton (Dayton), so was being a natural travel & rival school with DePaul and ND, so was being in the 34th largest DMA.

The irony is this entire thread is in response to something Dodds said.  JD's a great guy with the heart of a saint but he's in the tank for TC as much as he is for Favre.  There are some topics that are just best left untouched.

[rugbydrummer]

Clearly some of you got coal in your stockings--it's the only logical explanation for obsessing over coaches and their (lack of) involvement in conference changes instead of enjoying sweet christmas loot!

Honestly, with all this arguing you guys should be getting paid, right?  I really want someone to call the Athletics department so this issue can be put to bed.

[MR.HAYWARD]

That was really the reasoning for my original post.  The fact that certain boards are still attempting to cannonize the guy even while he is in Bloomington.  Absolutely amazing how some are so completely oblivios to everything that has gone down over the years and still want to blindly canonize someone and give them credit for things they do not deserve.

PS ...cords is going to support his coach and of course he is going to give Crean credit,  what would you expect him to do?  Cords was the ultimate politiocian

[Marquette84]

Absolutely amazing how some are so completely oblivios to everything that has gone down over the years and still want to blindly canonize someone and give them credit for things they do not deserve.

And yet, time and time again, when you're called to actually give some specifics on what "some are so completely oblivios [sic] to," you disappear.  Apparently, its such petty stuff that you are afraid to even mention it.

Cords deserves credit for firing Deane and hiring Crean.  Crean deserves credit for building a team worth of being invited to the Big East. Without both, we don't get invited. Period.

Its amazing that some here have such petty hatred that they cannot give credit even where due.

[MR.HAYWARD]

disappear?!  coo koo  i have made 4-5 posts in this thread, run along child

[ChicosBailBonds]

Cords told me that one on one, colleague to colleague as the two of us sat down for a private chat. He and I go back to 1987 and the point of the discussion was to talk about how far we had come as a school, program, etc.

What I find equally funny as that some of you don't want to accept reality of how pathetic we had come.

3 ncaa wins in TWENTY YEARS was the situation when Crean was hired.  Think about it.

As for the "edxceptions" made for some kid from Robbins....was this any different then the same exceptions made by Wild for Alton Mason who had far worse academic issues going into MU?  Of course not.

Exceptions have been made time and time again, sometimes with more flexibility then others.  Of course then you have to ask yourself, if Crean was able to convince Wild that Wade was worth the risk then shouldn't Crean be acknowledged for doing so?  Was Alton Mason worth that same risk?  There are others we could go through all the way back to McGuire.


MU is not in the Big East without Crean and the accomplishments of the program under his direction.  It can't be said any clearer.  It doesn't mean he was the only one, but the fact of the matter is the timing of the Big East expansion happened at the same time MU got damn good again, went to a Final Four, won a CUSA title, had three NBA players on it's roster, was drawing 18600 to major games. 

Timing is everything folks, call it luck, call it the alignment of the stars, call it whatever you like...but all those things happened when the opportunity presented itself and Crean was the captain of the ship.

[Marquette84]

disappear?!  coo koo  i have made 4-5 posts in this thread, run along child

Mark my words.  You've always running away from threads when you're asked to come up with any specifics on Crean.

It's always this general "stuff thats gone down over the years" or "his true colors" or "coach-speak" or "people he screwed" or some other comment utterly lacking in specifics.

Yet, when you're asked to come up with examples, you disappear. 

Note your post above--once again, you fail to give any examples whatsoever. 

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

And yet, time and time again, when you're called to actually give some specifics on what "some are so completely oblivios [sic] to," you disappear.  Apparently, its such petty stuff that you are afraid to even mention it.

+1

It seams like there is a group around here who likes to perform "Drive-by Creanings" where they quickly move in to remind everybody how "bad" Crean really is, and then are nowhere to be found when they are rebutted.

[The Lens]

Alton Mason was an NCAA Clearinghouse Qualifier, Wade was not. 

(Now who took his tests is another thing but that was not something Fr Wild or probably even Deane was privy too)

[ChicosBailBonds]

Alton Mason was an NCAA Clearinghouse Qualifier, Wade was not. 

(Now who took his tests is another thing but that was not something Fr Wild or probably even Deane was privy too)

Alton Mason they knew couldn't read above a grade level that permits admission to a university like MU.  There have been exceptions over the years on many many players.

Crean convinced Wild it was a good risk to take Wade...do you believe that is not the case?  If you believe it was worth the risk, shouldn't Crean be acknowledged for suggesting that risk be taken?

[MR.HAYWARD]

if a kid qualifies and flunks out it looks far less bad than taking a a non qualifier who does the same.  Alton mason was far less risk taken than Dwade.  Regardless it has nothing to do with the argument and I personally have no problem with taking Dwade or alton Masons so long as they represent the university properly, we start looking like a Cincy and things change.  That is more of a character and university control issue than an intelligence issue anyway.  My only issue ever with Wade is how it relates back to Cream and his own self cannoniztion of how he was found in the weeds of high school basketball and noone accress the country country recognize his hidden talents except for the one top crean.  That is total bogus as has been said he was ineligbile to attend BCS schools.  therefore his options were prep school, Juco, or non BCS schools that were in conferences that allowed non-qualifiers.  Mu was not the only school that recognized his talent Mu was one of the only schools that could offer the kid.   

MU was drawing 18600 to big games before Crean came along.  MU was in Milwaukkee before Crean came along.  Mu was a terrific non football playing option long be fore Crean came along.  Mu was an attractive BE canidiate just like they were an attarctive C-USa candidate before Cream came along.  As I said before If the BE shake down occur in the early 90's or late 90's were get invited then too.  Cords can give Cream all the credit he wants.  he would have given Oneil credit in 1994r if we were invited then too.


The significant difference here is some people feel Tom Crean made MArquette.  They are so completely wrong.  Mu was the all time #9 in post season appearances competing in a pretty sold conference in the C-USa playing and on occasion selling out the BC.  Tom Cream was absolutely nobody.  Marquette made Tom Crean.  Did he do a good job as a steward of the MU tradtion and add a chapter while he was here? sure.  But Marqueete made Tom Crean.  He and others forgot that.     

it is similar to the anaolgy of the hand in the bucket of water.  with Mu being the bucket of water and Cream the hand. you can splash and stir and agitate that water to water ever degree you feel necessary but not long after you leave or remove the hand things reamain the same.  the beat goes on make all the noise you want but shortly thereafter you are not longer missed.  Buzz and this season heretofore have preoven that already. 

Crean came in tried to make himself bigger than the program splashed all he could slapped people like GT and other major donors right in the face now he has left and the beat goes on.  actually 1 Ncaa win in the last 5 years aint a whole lot of spalshing. 

Mu is better now that he is gone.  Buzz is a better man, coach and recruiter

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

For clarification, can you provide the details to your bold statements below?

Thanks.

Mu was not the only school that recognized his talent Mu was one of the only schools that could offer the kid. Who else offered? 

MU was drawing 18600 to big games before Crean came along. When/What games? How often?

Mu was the all time #9 in post season appearances competing in a pretty sold conference in the C-USa playing and on occasion selling out the BC.  When was MU selling out (18600+?)

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that Tom Crean is the reason that MU is in the Big East, but I am trying to illustrate that you (Mr. Hayward) often make broad/bold statements without providing any real detail or research.

It seems like you are trying to cherry pick some broad topics to support your agenda.

[4everwarriors]

if a kid qualifies and flunks out it looks far less bad than taking a a non qualifier who does the same.  Alton mason was far less risk taken than Dwade.  Regardless it has nothing to do with the argument and I personally have no problem with taking Dwade or alton Masons so long as they represent the university properly, we start looking like a Cincy and things change.  That is more of a character and university control issue than an intelligence issue anyway.  My only issue ever with Wade is how it relates back to Cream and his own self cannoniztion of how he was found in the weeds of high school basketball and noone accress the country country recognize his hidden talents except for the one top crean.  That is total bogus as has been said he was ineligbile to attend BCS schools.  therefore his options were prep school, Juco, or non BCS schools that were in conferences that allowed non-qualifiers.  Mu was not the only school that recognized his talent Mu was one of the only schools that could offer the kid.   

MU was drawing 18600 to big games before Crean came along.  MU was in Milwaukkee before Crean came along.  Mu was a terrific non football playing option long be fore Crean came along.  Mu was an attractive BE canidiate just like they were an attarctive C-USa candidate before Cream came along.  As I said before If the BE shake down occur in the early 90's or late 90's were get invited then too.  Cords can give Cream all the credit he wants.  he would have given Oneil credit in 1994r if we were invited then too.


The significant difference here is some people feel Tom Crean made MArquette.  They are so completely wrong.  Mu was the all time #9 in post season appearances competing in a pretty sold conference in the C-USa playing and on occasion selling out the BC.  Tom Cream was absolutely nobody.  Marquette made Tom Crean.  Did he do a good job as a steward of the MU tradtion and add a chapter while he was here? sure.  But Marqueete made Tom Crean.  He and others forgot that.     

it is similar to the anaolgy of the hand in the bucket of water.  with Mu being the bucket of water and Cream the hand. you can splash and stir and agitate that water to water ever degree you feel necessary but not long after you leave or remove the hand things reamain the same.  the beat goes on make all the noise you want but shortly thereafter you are not longer missed.  Buzz and this season heretofore have preoven that already. 

Crean came in tried to make himself bigger than the program splashed all he could slapped people like GT and other major donors right in the face now he has left and the beat goes on.  actually 1 Ncaa win in the last 5 years aint a whole lot of spalshing. 

Mu is better now that he is gone.  Buzz is a better man, coach and recruiter



Eloquent man, simply eloquent!

[MR.HAYWARD]

For clarification, can you provide the details to your bold statements below?

Thanks.


Just to be clear, I'm not saying that Tom Crean is the reason that MU is in the Big East, but I am trying to illustrate that you (Mr. Hayward) often make broad/bold statements without providing any real detail or research.

It seems like you are trying to cherry pick some broad topics to support your agenda.

pull a old media guide and all the those numbers are clearly available. 

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

pull a old media guide and all the those numbers are clearly available. 

What other schools would have offered to Wade?

Also, I don't have access to the media guides, but these numbers seem to indicate that MU had some of the best attendance numbers under Crean. I know it's not exactly what you said in your previous post, but it does show that Crean did increase the profile of the school in the local community.

http://wiki.muscoop.com/doku.php/men_s_basketball/season_by_season_attendance