Merry Christmas ...But somethings get old...

[MR.HAYWARD]

When will this fallacy ever end!!   Al Mcguire had more to do with getting Mu in the BE than Crean by building a nationally recognized program.  Was Crean the reason we got invited to the GMC and the C-USa too!!!??

    EddieDswang wrote: I think we're all a bit wiser now......we've been sensitized a bit when it comes to our head coach.

    Whether Buzz reaches the Final Four or his teams accomplish great things, this time around there will be no false hype....no intrigue....no behind-the-scenes tirades....no hidden agendas. It's not about him. It's about Marquette.  He's made that plain and simple.

    What started out 9 years ago so positive, flushed itself down the toilet with a few final years of ego-maniacal actions.  We at Marquette deserve better. Win or lose, there will be dignity....there will be class. With Buzz, this is what I've seen.

    I enjoy the games....talking aobut the "what ifs".....the "leave it all on the court" performances of our college athletes.....potential recruits...and the rest.  I don't enjoy the periphary crap that clouded our program before the exodus of old Tommy Twotone.

    I want to be entertained.  I want to be proud of my university.  I want to see our team grow on and off he court. I want a candid and honest leader (who could some day leave us for the Texas job....but I'm sure he will do it in the right way).

    We just might have it all in Buzz.



I can see why you are bitter about the way the Crean era ended...but he recruited Wade, got us to the Four...did a great job pushing MU, the donors, the architects to build the AL...he hired Buzz at the right time for us...that might turn out to be bigger than getting Wade....but the most important result of the Crean Era...and the most important thing to happen to MU ...bigger than '77....was...drum roll....JOING THE BIG EAST!!

....the triplets came here to compete in the Big East...the job was attractive to Buzz and others because it is a Big East job!!!! MU is on TV-every game!!!  MU is on Big Monday...record admissions...non hoops athletes-Mike Van Sickle came here to be in The Big East and have a chance to set the standard for the program...other athletes are on the way....MU can now survive Al retiring...coaches leaving like the Colts from Baltimore ...all because we are in the Big East...

...so point out all the negatives you have seen since '99...and I say what has happened over the last 9 yrs has been great...perhaps even a miracle...in '99 we are playing Dayton...down by 40...deep in the CUSA cellar....and in garbage time, an MU  player grabs a missed Dayton FT and dunks it in the wrong basket...Homer turns to George[the game was not on TV] and GT is speechless... I remember thinking ..'Where is this program going?'  I would not have sold my soul to get into the BIg East at that time, but I would have thought about it.  Now I don't have to..



A few weeks ago I received an email from a poster who asked me after I defended Crean...'JD, when did you crawl up Tom Crean's ass and die?' I responded 'I was wondering why it was getting so dark; I thought it just did that  naturally until Dec 22...and then it got lighter.' But there are negatives with every coach...in every program...I learned when about 2 weeks after our Duke loss in '94, KO was walking across the campus in a Tenn orange sweat suit, that no matter what, I will always love Marquette more than the coaches....I attended MU...I live in Milw...KO was a mercenary....but KO also saved the program by getting Mac, Logt , Key and Tony Miller...he found a better opportunity for himself and his family....I can live with that...I shook his hand, thanked him for his hard work and  service to our program....Crean got us to the Big East and hired Buzz as an asst....no way Buzz gets hired at MU otherwise....so  to TC, thanks and Godspeed....just don't mess with Buzz's targeted recruits....and the next time we play Indiana in the Great Alaska Shootout, we will kick your ass!

[mwbauer7]

I don't know what from this post is yours and what is ganked directly from the other board...

[bma725]

Wrong.  MU getting invited to the Big East had more to do with the fact that Mike Tranghese is one of Crean's friends than any other factor.  It didn't matter what Al did 30 years ago, just like it didn't matter what Ed Jucker did at Cincy 40 years ago or what Ray Meyer did at DePaul.  If Crean wasn't there, MU would have been a long shot at best.  With Crean there, MU was a lock due to his pre-existing friendship with the commissioner.

[77ncaachamps]

I just hope you felt better after that rant, Mr. Hayward!

Merry Christmas!

[MR.HAYWARD]

Creans relationship with Tranghese are you kidding me!!  That is laughable if not so silly!!  Sorry but When the BE went looking for 5 teams they wanted schools that fit the geographical and media markets that were acceptable, they wanted schools that fit the institutional and academic stipulations that they set.  They also wanted schools that had terrific tradition in basketbal of football.  Depaul anf Marquette met all of those requirements.  Was Jerry Wainwright friends with Tranghese or was the traditon that RayMeyer built with Deapul BBall , more importnat?   Mu would be in the BE right now if MU had hired someone different in 1999 and had middle of the road success over the next 5 years.  Tom Crean had absolutely zero, nada, zilch to do with it.  And i have said that since long before that clown left. 

[Wareagle]

I don't know what from this post is yours and what is ganked directly from the other board...

The part with the grammatical errors is his.

[bma725]

Creans relationship with Tranghese are you kidding me!!  That is laughable if not so silly!!  Sorry but When the BE went looking for 5 teams they wanted schools that fit the geographical and media markets that were acceptable, they wanted schools that fit the institutional and academic stipulations that they set.  They also wanted schools that had terrific tradition in basketbal of football.  Depaul anf Marquette met all of those requirements.  Was Jerry Wainwright friends with Tranghese or was the traditon that RayMeyer built with Deapul BBall , more importnat?   Mu would be in the BE right now if MU had hired someone different in 1999 and had middle of the road success over the next 5 years.  Tom Crean had absolutely zero, nada, zilch to do with it.  And i have said that since long before that clown left. 

And you've been wrong all along.  Tranghese has talked about how he greatly admires Crean, how he wanted to get MU because he wanted to work with Crean again(they met when Crean was with Pitt), how he thinks Crean was great for the Big East etc.  It wasn't about what Al had done 25 years before, it was about Crean and what he was doing.

[MR.HAYWARD]

membership is decided upon by the university presidents...and Tranghese very well may have admired Crean...but conference admission is not based on one person nor should it ever be ......people come and go...the university presidents never met Crean nor would they put more than .000001% of their decsiosn making process on the head coach of the school's bball team. bma you seem like an intelligent enogh person it is much bigger than that and I would admit to that even if I loved Crean.  Crean had as much to do with it as Wainwright at Deapual.  It was the university and the athletic tradtion not the mens bball coach at the time.

if it happened in 1994 and oneil was the coach Mu would have been invited.

If it happened in 1997 and Dean ws the caoch Mu would have been invited.

It happened in 2003 and Crean was the coach Mu was invited

[bma725]

The Big East expanded in the past and had multiple opportunities to add MU prior to the school actually joining in 2005.  MU was an option in 1980 when they added Villanova and again in 1982 when Pitt came on board.  It was only a few years after Al retired, but MU didn't get in. They had the opportunity to add MU in 1991 when Miami, Va Tech and Temple(Football Only) joined, but they didn't.  They had the opportunity again in 1995 when WVU, Rutgers and Notre Dame joined and again they chose not to.

It wasn't about what MU had been under McGuire, it was about what MU was at the time under Crean.  Just like it was about what Louisville is under Pitino, not what they had been under Crum...and what Cincinnati was under Huggins not what they had been under Jucker.

The fact that schools like MU, DePaul, Cincinnati and Louisville had historic coaches had nothing to do with them being added.  It was about the programs they were at the time and what they could bring to the conference in the future.  If MU didn't have Crean and hadn't just gone to the Final Four, they would not have been invited.

[wildbill sb]

...and then there's Seton Hall.  Tell me again what their accomplishments were that got them into the Big East and not LaSalle, for example.

[avid1010]

The Big East expanded in the past and had multiple opportunities to add MU prior to the school actually joining in 2005.  MU was an option in 1980 when they added Villanova and again in 1982 when Pitt came on board.  It was only a few years after Al retired, but MU didn't get in. They had the opportunity to add MU in 1991 when Miami, Va Tech and Temple(Football Only) joined, but they didn't.  They had the opportunity again in 1995 when WVU, Rutgers and Notre Dame joined and again they chose not to.

It wasn't about what MU had been under McGuire, it was about what MU was at the time under Crean.  Just like it was about what Louisville is under Pitino, not what they had been under Crum...and what Cincinnati was under Huggins not what they had been under Jucker.

The fact that schools like MU, DePaul, Cincinnati and Louisville had historic coaches had nothing to do with them being added.  It was about the programs they were at the time and what they could bring to the conference in the future.  If MU didn't have Crean and hadn't just gone to the Final Four, they would not have been invited.

So why did DePaul get in...Tranghese must be part of the Chicago political machine  

I typically agree with you BMA, and I'm sure having TC as a head coach didn't hurt, but in some way or another it always comes back to Al, in my opinion.  In one post you seem to say it was because TC and Tranghese were friends, and in another, you say it's because TC had rebuilt a strong program.  I have little "inside" information prior to TC's arrival, but I tend to think Bill Cords had more to do with it, and maybe he understood TC's ties to Tranghese would help.  It still goes back to Al, and one of the major problems I have with TC is how he made it seem like MU's history had nothing in comparison to IU's.  I'll take Al over Bobby Knight anyday!

Merry Christmas to all you MU fans...I now have my fix for the day.

[4everwarriors]

The Big East expanded in the past and had multiple opportunities to add MU prior to the school actually joining in 2005.  MU was an option in 1980 when they added Villanova and again in 1982 when Pitt came on board.  It was only a few years after Al retired, but MU didn't get in. They had the opportunity to add MU in 1991 when Miami, Va Tech and Temple(Football Only) joined, but they didn't.  They had the opportunity again in 1995 when WVU, Rutgers and Notre Dame joined and again they chose not to.

It wasn't about what MU had been under McGuire, it was about what MU was at the time under Crean.  Just like it was about what Louisville is under Pitino, not what they had been under Crum...and what Cincinnati was under Huggins not what they had been under Jucker.

The fact that schools like MU, DePaul, Cincinnati and Louisville had historic coaches had nothing to do with them being added.  It was about the programs they were at the time and what they could bring to the conference in the future.  If MU didn't have Crean and hadn't just gone to the Final Four, they would not have been invited.

Marquette resisted joining any conference for years and years. They thought, incorrectly so, that going the independent route was in their best interest, especially as long as ND remained an independent also. When the NCAA kept giving conference champs and conference tourney champs automatic bids to the dance, MU had to rethink their strategy. At the point in time that the Warriors joined the Big East, it was going to happen, Crean or no Crean, because it was right for both the school and the conference.

[MR.HAYWARD]

Bma i undertsand you opinion but really belive you to be wrong,  for example sure Pitino is a great coach and will keep louisville strong for the foreseeable future and has BE ties.  But they get in regardless of their current coach they got in deu to strong football and the wonderful bball tradtition established by Crum.  Conference and university deciions are not made based on such short tenures and impredicatblility of a current coach. 

also things change over time as others say at one time Mu was not intersted in conference affiliation in the 70's and 80's independents held much power.  Al on numerous times said he never wanted to be in a confence. As time went on that changed.  Air travel, chartered flights etc chnged dramatically, television coverage dramatically.  Your examples of previous expansion are irrelavant Pittsburgh, Temple,  Villanova , gegraphically demograpically etc. all made more sense at the time, even Miami and Va tech as the BE at that time was attempting to establish there Fball presence made big time sense.  The first geographic stretch was for Notre Dame, and with their cache reaching ot to the midwest is more than understandable.  If nothing else Miami and ND proved to the big east that that travel and distance were not big ostacles at all to building a strong conference.  When the time came schools like Maine, Umass, Hofstra, Fordham, etc. other more geograpical fits were not considered.  Scholls with all the attractions that i previously mentioned including financial commitment were invited.  Crean had as much to do with it as he had to do with Mu being invited to the C-USa a few year previous.  If nothing else Mu's commitment to pay Crean what they were had more to do with it than the actual individual on the sidelines.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I don't understand peoples' need to distribute credit and/or blame solely on one person. A LOT of people have helped and some have hurt MU along the way.

There are a lot of little details that can be debated, but without Al, Hank, Rick, Bob, Kevin, Mike and Tom and Buzz, MU wouldn't be in the same position it is now.

Accept that they all deserve some credit for the good stuff and some blame for the not-so-good stuff.

[MUshrooms]

Annoying thread.

[ATWizJr]

Don't forget to give credit to Hickey!  Agreed, annoying.

[CTWarrior]

Don't forget to give credit to Hickey!  Agreed, annoying.

Agreed about annoyance factor, as it is impossible to know what would have happened had we hired someone other than Crean.  Although I am in the camp of we'd be in there anyway (as long as Deane's successor wasn't a complete Dukiet-like guy) because they wanted a non-football school with as good a basketball program as was possible in a good-sized market that wasn't already covered by the league and wasn't too far west.  Who was left to take?

FWIW, I am as far from an insider as an alumnus can be, but I arrived early (worried about traffic from CT) to one of those alumni pre-game parties during our first Big East season before the Seton Hall game and was lucky enough to have an uninterrupted 10 minute conversation with Bill Cords.  Among the many things he said was that Notre Dame deserved as much or more credit than anybody for getting us in the Big East, as they insisted on us and DePaul and used all of their influence to make it happen.

[MR.HAYWARD]

Top 25 in attendance, strong financial commitment to basketball, #9 all time in tourney appearances etc. all were huge factors and we were those long before Crean showed up.

[Pardner]

Big East?  Come on....it is about the TV $$$.  Big East lost Boston and added the Chicago DMA.  Lost Miami and gained Tampa.  Lost Blacksburg/Roanake in Virginia Tech and gained Louisville, Cinci, and Milwaukee.  In a small sense, they retained a presence in Boston with Providence with a bleedover.  These were all gains in terms of TV market size and more so, the right purchasing power demographics.  Throw in the fact the BE now has contiguous coverage over half the country and you have the first national conference.  Marquette, DePaul, Louisville, and Cinci all have long histories of supporting their sports programs and there was a good fit with already existing rivalries even with the BE schools--Memphis has/did not (not to mention the history scandals/poor academics at Memphis.Memphis State).  

USF, Louisville, Cinci replaced the three football schools and have since shown their success.  While the ACC has shown that, besides the ex-BE football teams, they are not really a football conference first--and are still just a "southern conference".  UNC and Duke bball with all the ACC ESPN announcers are their only national exposure athletic strength schools in reality.  

ESPN is responsible for both these conferences.  IMO, the BE has won out.  Will the BE continue to tweak, especially in regard to football?  Yes, I can see Memphis being an athletic fit.    It would also help matters if DePaul stepped up their investment/commitment in their major sport.  

MU credit?  Cords.  Also, TC was and is still a great salesman.  Made for ESPN.  Give him his due.

[MR.HAYWARD]

pardener you make a great argument all of it dead on correct on the whole demographic marketing portion of the reasoning Mu was agreat fit....and then say give Crean his due....yet Crean had nothing to do with any of what you state.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

pardener you make a great argument all of it dead on correct on the whole demographic marketing portion of the reasoning Mu was agreat fit....and then say give Crean his due....yet Crean had nothing to do with any of what you state.

dude, give it up.

Your obsession with only giving credit to certain people involved with MU but not others is retarded.

EVERYBODY deserves credit, from the ushers, to the University president.

OK?

[reinko]

I give credit to Steve Novak for making those huge 3's against Holy Cross and Mizzou.

[Nukem2]

I give credit to Steve Novak for making those huge 3's against Holy Cross and Mizzou.

More so Diener versus Holy Cross

[reinko]

Good call, my bad. 

But I think you got my point

[Pardner]

pardener you make a great argument all of it dead on correct on the whole demographic marketing portion of the reasoning Mu was agreat fit....and then say give Crean his due....yet Crean had nothing to do with any of what you state.

What I left unstated on TC is all that he recreated along with the players he brought in.  Blowing up Midnight Madness, renewal of student interest, hype, contests, Gameday, merchandising, shoe deals, ties to Izzo, student enrollment, etc... and more so, TC's national reputation after the F4.  ESPN=BE and TC was all over it--TV, radio, web, even print.  You need a quote, call TC.  TC's reputation/spin, and therefore Marquette's at the time (yes, building on Al, Hank, Rick, KO), had TC as the national face.  Notice I use the word "national".  Makes for good TV ratings and fan interest across the US.  MU attendance, winning % and graduation rates didn't suffer either.  

In Milwaukee or Wisco, where it is about the alums, ex-players, meet n greets, hs gyms and the local press, it was a different story...which after a while, led to the inevitable parting.  It was time for him to move on--and how he did it was low class, but let's face it, TC was the charismatic national face of the program.  He was successful at it and this helped when entering the BE.

Buzz seems to be taking a different track than TC--building locally and nationally.  Have you noticed the increase of Rosiak's and the JS coverage?  Buzz is a good local quote, provides depth, is open.   He reaches out to alums, ex-players, charities, hs coaches, even Bo & Jeter.  That is a very different signal to me--although the alums are more cautious in willingness to accept him--that Buzz is here for the long haul.  Again, this will play out with time.  With Buzz, the national hype will only come with winning...as will the local acceptance.