Worried about our Defense

[Blackhat]

I'm happy about the win, NC State beat some ok teams at home last year and their confidence was still high being 7-1.    But our defense has really suffered since Crean left and please don't tell me losing Ousmane Barro is the reason.    NC State shot friggin 51% on us last night and Ken Pom and all the other stat nerds will show we have gotten a ton worse defensively this year.    Buzz is a self proclaimed "defensive guy", well color me unimpressed.   We need Buzz to get better on that side of the ball or else Big East play won't be kind. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

We were fortunate their one guy, the white guy, seemed to miss a ton of 3 pointers.  I only saw the second half but don't recall him making any.

[Pardner]

I was very worried after Dayton, but the team is still learning Buzz's system.  He has them playing more with their feet than their hands with the on ball pressure.  They have been playing much better and have been getting stops.  Take out Costner (9-10 and 5-5 on threes) and NCST shot 40%.  Buzz threw Laz at him then Wes, but like Chism, we had no match-up for height and quickness on the taller inside-out players (the Felix Effect).  I am hoping that is Fulce...and I hope Otule helps with the Bigs--but both are a ways away.

That said, I love when Buzz intermixes the zones situationally.  NCST had 18 TO's last night which was huge.  But, that plays to our strength on D and distracts the O.

[CTWarrior]

I thought we played pretty good defense last night.  I know they shot it well, but we turned them over a bunch and that kid Costner was unconscious.  He made a couple threes with a hand right in his face.  We have absolutely no one who can guard a guy like that, though.  Ferguson missed a couple of open threes, but he strikes me as the kind of guy that needs time to get his shot off and he probably rushed them worrying about our guards getting to him.

[muarmy81]

I thought we played pretty good defense last night.  I know they shot it well, but we turned them over a bunch and that kid Costner was unconscious.  He made a couple threes with a hand right in his face.  We have absolutely no one who can guard a guy like that, though.  Ferguson missed a couple of open threes, but he strikes me as the kind of guy that needs time to get his shot off and he probably rushed them worrying about our guards getting to him.

Agreed,
I thought our defense was actually pretty decent last night. (Too include our post defense) Costner was unreal but other than that our guys forced the wolfpack into a lot of silly passes as well as some stupid fouls. (Dominic was in that Freshman's head)  I think NC State had about 12 Turnovers in the first half but we were unable to capitalize on the offensive end. (See Jerel not giving it up early enough on the break)  The 1-3-1 really put the pressure on their inexperienced guards and even though our extended pressure lead to a few easy buckets I think it created more turnovers than easy buckets.

[MU gimp ONE]

i was pleased with our defense as of late... it is tough to hold teams to low percentages when we are trying to make up for so much lack of height.  a lot of percentage points are gained on opponents put backs off misses or layups off of good passes around the zone.  without a solid inside defense of course teams will shoot high percentages.  since our guards are running all over the court.  this team has been able to make up for the missing height pretty well to this point.  hopefully fulce and otule will work into playing shape to give us length and tougher shots for the opponents. 

this is also the reason buzz can't keep the zone going for long periods of time.  watch how much more our guys run when in the zone.  this zone and a thin bench just doesn't mesh.  watch next year when we hopefully have depth and a ton of athletes... our zone will be unreal.

[Big Papi]

I actually hated our defense under TC.  Too many reach-in fouls with deflections probably being emphasized a little too much.  I much prefer getting into good defensive position with our feet instead of over-extending and reaching in.  I don't think our defense has been bad by any stretch of the imagination. 

As far as last night goes, Costner was feeling it.  Not much you can do when a player nails a stepback 3 from deep.  I think the kid was 5-5 from deep. 

There was a certain player by the name of Felix that was on fire from 3 as well a few years ago if we really want to look at a small sample size.

[Blackhat]

I can understand that we've all got personal tastes but the stats from guys like ken pom have us 87th in defensive efficiency.   That's crappy compared to where crean had us.   so we may be fouling less but we're also getting torched for easy buckets a heck of a lot more.  I'd rather have fouls.     

[lab_warrior]

With the state of the roster, I'd rather NOT have the fouls.  We need the guys on the floor, not in foul trouble.

[bs4173]

I can understand that we've all got personal tastes but the stats from guys like ken pom have us 87th in defensive efficiency.   That's crappy compared to where crean had us.   so we may be fouling less but we're also getting torched for easy buckets a heck of a lot more.  I'd rather have fouls.    

i disagree. our bench is way too thin this year to risk fouling. the tennessee game was case in point. foul trouble was a huge part of the reason we lost, and Buzz had absolutely no bench to relieve the starters. comparing Crean to Buzz (in this regard at least) isn't fair.

[Markusquette]

they were fortunate their big guy hit 5-5 from downtown.

[Blackhat]

I don't think it's an either/or in regards to fouls and good defense.   We managed with the same guard rotation from last year not to foul out and play great help/contain defense.   

[Daniel]

I don't have the stasts, but where this year are we giving up the ppoints this year?  In the paint?  On second attempts?  If so, that makes some sense since we are weak int he frontcourt.  If we are getting beat all over the floor, that's another issue - but one that may still relate to being weak upfront.  Just wondering. .. .

[Big Papi]

I can understand that we've all got personal tastes but the stats from guys like ken pom have us 87th in defensive efficiency.   That's crappy compared to where crean had us.   so we may be fouling less but we're also getting torched for easy buckets a heck of a lot more.  I'd rather have fouls.     

I'd rather not foul with our short bench.  How is our 3 point defense compared to last year?  Are we giving up more points in the paint?  If so, does it have to do with the fact that we are giving up a ton of size from the 5 and 4 position.  Barro struggled from the offensive end but he was very solid last year on the defensive end and was 6'10", a legit 3 inches more than Burke.  Are we giving up more offensive rebounds and putbacks?  Again that could be a size problem.  Are we creating a faster tempo than last year that is giving us and our opponents easier transition points? All legit possibilities that could lead to lower scores on a specific stat screen.  Who knows maybe we grade out higher on someone else's screening. 

If everything was exactly like last year than I would agree with you but they are not.  We have less bodies, less size and we are in the process of learning a different defensive philosophy.  So what I am getting it is I appreciate stats as much as anyone else but one can always specific stats that fit their argument.  At this point in time we are 10-2 and I don't see a problem with the defense.  Can it be better?  Most certainly but I would expect to get torched on the defensive more than a few times this year considering some of our opponents are going to dominate us down low with their size.  Does that mean Buzz does not know how to coach defense or that Thabeet and Earl Clark are monsters that we have no one who can matchup with them.  Also, what if our defensive efficiency is less than last year but our offense is a whole lot better?  Anyways, I think your sample size is too small and we need to see how this plays out over the course of at least one year and probably into next when Buzz has a roster primarily made up with his players. 

[MarquetteDano]

Whether you use stats or simply observation, it seems obvious to me we are NOT as good as defensive team as last year.  Like it has been mentioned though, not a big surprise given injuries, no Barro, new philosophy, etc..  I have hope that we will get better and that Fucle and Otule will play a bigger role in both capacities (defense/offense) so that it will be a wash (i.e. just as good as last year on "D")  by the end of the season.

[Wareagle]

I don't have the stasts, but where this year are we giving up the ppoints this year?  In the paint?  On second attempts?  If so, that makes some sense since we are weak int he frontcourt.  If we are getting beat all over the floor, that's another issue - but one that may still relate to being weak upfront.  Just wondering. .. .

To give everyone a baseline, we are ranked 92nd in defensive efficiency right now.  The 2008 team finished the season ranked 10th.  I selected what I thought were some telling stats below that might account for the difference.

2009 team stats
173rd in effective field goal percentage defense (this is horrible)
99th in turnover percentage (our ability to force turnovers)
129th in opponent 3pt percentage
194th in opponent 2pt percentage

2008 team stats
30th in effective field goal percentage defense
49th in turnover percentage
10th in opponent 3pt percentage
98th in opponent 2pt percentage

Essentially, a big reason our D isn't as good is that teams are much better at hitting 3's against us this year so far.  They're also better at hitting 2's, and we are not forcing as many turnovers. 

We are better at not putting teams on the line, and also we are better at defensive rebounding, but apparently these improvements do not make up for the fact that the opposing teams are turning the ball over less and are better at hitting 2's and 3's against us this year.

[mviale]

We are definitely playing less aggressive and it makes more sense when you dont have a 4-5 quality players coming off the bench.  Fulce and Otule will make up for this later in the year.

[Blackhat]

Buzz sucked at coaching defense his one year at UNO too, so I'm not naive enough to think things are magically going to get better with Fulce and Otule.   Before I hop on the Buzz wagon he at least needs to prove he can coach top 50 defense.   Otherwise it won't matter how good he recruits, it'll be a short tenure. 

[Big Papi]

You have to take these stats with a grain of salt especially with such a small sample size.

Other coaches who supposedly suck at coaching defense per Kenpom's defensive efficiency stat:

Bo Ryan
Billy Donovan
Tubby Smith
Mike Brey
Rick Majerus

You break it down to anyone outside the top 50 and we can add these coaches on the sucking at coaching defense list:

Bruce Pearl
Tom Crean
Tom Izzo
Trent Johnson
Scott Drew

[bilsu]

We have to remember that the game is different this year also with the change in the three point line. I do not think it has change the overall three point percentage much, but has suceeded in opening up the lane as defenders are more spread out.

[Blackhat]

You have to take these stats with a grain of salt especially with such a small sample size.

Other coaches who supposedly suck at coaching defense per Kenpom's defensive efficiency stat:

Bo Ryan
Billy Donovan
Tubby Smith
Mike Brey
Rick Majerus

You break it down to anyone outside the top 50 and we can add these coaches on the sucking at coaching defense list:

Bruce Pearl
Tom Crean
Tom Izzo
Trent Johnson
Scott Drew

We've got to be the most experienced team to lose the least significant portion of our team to drop the most in one year.   Crean has us beat by 30 spots in defensive efficiency despite playing with his rag tag bunch.  It will be interesting to chart as the stats become more reliable but our huge drop in defensive performance in just one off season so far is troubling. 

[Big Papi]

We've got to be the most experienced team to lose the least significant portion of our team to drop the most in one year.   Crean has us beat by 30 spots in defensive efficiency despite playing with his rag tag bunch.  It will be interesting to chart as the stats become more reliable but our huge drop in defensive performance in just one off season so far is troubling. 

So everyone gets an excuse on that list but Buzz????  Wisconsin goes from 2 to 88 and its ok because they lost some players?  What about Hughes, Bohannan, Landry, Krabbenhoft?  That is a whole heck of a lot of experience coming back, in addition to not having to learn new offensive and defensive system.  MU on the other hand went from small to a lot smaller, deep bench to almost no bench and learning new offensive and defensive philosophies that no other team except for Indiana had to do from the prior list I mentioned.  Why does Bo get a pass and Buzz doesn't?  Why does everyone get a pass but Buzz doesn't? 

All of this brings me back to my point again.  The sample size is way too small.  10 games does not determine if Buzz can or can't coach.  If Buzz is a good defensive coach or a lousy one.  If Buzz will or will not be successful.  We really needs a 2-3 year sample size to determine what you want in 10 games.  But lets go back and focus on Florida and Billy Donovan for a minute so we can look at your comment about how recruiting doesn't matter if you can't coach defense. 

Billy Donovan by almost any standard is considered a very successful coach.  Heck he has won 2 national titles within the last 5 years.  Talk about success.  Yet his defensive efficiency has fallen off a cliff.  He has gone from a great coach to one per your definition that sucks and will have a short coaching tenure.  How does one lose it so quickly????   He was a phenomenal defensive coach when they won 2 national titles then last year with 5 new starters it dropped to 78 and this year it is a putrid 161.  Can him!  Fire him!  He is done!!!!!  He is not competent to coach.  At least by your definition that would be the case. 

But maybe just maybe being successful and winning championships has less to do with KenPom's awesome statistical analysis of defensive efficiency and more to do with a balanced and extremely talented roster or at the very least a roster that fits a coaching system.  Lets give Buzz some time before we come to conclusions.  With his type of players he could turn into a coaching defensive wizard.   

[Pardner]

^^^
+1

I am a match-up guy when I look at stats...so I like to analyze how we do vs. our opponents averages.  Let's look at MU's non-cupcake games as a comparison (factoring out garbage time):

UNI--we gave up 43 points vs. UNI's season average of 66
Dayton--we gave up 89 vs. a UD season average of 69.  Our one stinker game so far.
Wisco--we gave up 58 vs. a season avg. of 67
UT--we gave up a 80 vs. a season avg. of 84 (7th best in country)
NCST--we gave up 65 vs. season avg. of 73

In the Dayton game, the Flyers shot 25-39 on FT's.  For the season, they average 15-22 per game on FT's.  UT shot 26-36 in the MU game on FT's vs. an average of 18-26.  Clearly, more points were scored against us on the two games close to or above opposing teams offensive norms on the free throw line. 

So, is Buzz stressing a different game (more possessions), so more points given up?  Are we matching the style of our opponents and hoping our leadership takes us home?  Are we undersized and fouling more?  Do we have match-up problems with teams who are quick, deep and tall?  Answer:  TBD.

[Blackhat]

You guys make some valid points but of course season avgs will be up currently since it's still cupcake season.    There are still a lot of question marks and stat analysis is still pretty weak.   I only wish we got off to a better start on the defensive end because that was the huge question mark surrounding Buzz coming in.   Hopefully we can be more stifling in the future, like the days with Crean. 

[MR.HAYWARD]

I actually find it rather funny that some of the people are complaining about the defense this year and pining for the days of Cream.  The funny part fo it is the simple fact thatmany of  us "oldtimers" wre very disillusioned by the demise of MArquette defense under Tommy Naismith.  Those of us that were around before the Tan One remeber being one of the top defensive teams in the nation under Oneill and Deane on an perennial basis.  I beleive it was 1994 when Oneils team broke the field goal percentage defense record set by patrick ewing and 1982 georgetown squad.  Deane's tenure continued the tradition of great D.  These teams also had some very good offensive clubs.  Many of us were very dishaertend by the erosoin of defense under Cream.  Now I will contend the argument can be made whether this squad is playing as good D as last years squad that is valid.  But to harken for the good old days of Cream defense is odd to me and i figure many many others.