Gary Parrish on our size

[Sir Lawrence]

In 'Big' East, Marquette could come up short
Dec. 18, 2008
By Gary Parrish
CBSSports.com Senior Writer


   
     
         


There is a Mutombo who plays for Western Carolina.

But his first name isn't Dikembe.

The Golden Eagles' bigs have little answer for the trees from other teams. (US Presswire)    
The Golden Eagles' bigs have little answer for the trees from other teams. (US Presswire)    
And he's just 6-foot-4.

And he only averages 4.8 rebounds per game.

And Buzz Williams really should be thrilled about all this, because 6-4 guards aren't a menace to Marquette, regardless of their name. It's the giants (like Dikembe Mutombo) who are built to cause fits, which is why the Golden Eagles will be fine when they host Western Carolina on Friday night. The Catamounts' top rebounder is 6-8, 205-pound forward Jake Robinson, who is a fine Southern Conference player but not a physically imposing post presence capable of taking advantage of the guard-heavy roster Williams inherited from Tom Crean.

"We are size deficient, and we have to do some things to disguise it as best we can," Williams said. "But you can't disguise the fact that we're suiting up nine players, the tallest of which is 6-6½."

No, you cannot.

And that's one of the reasons Tennessee's Wayne Chism went bananas on the Golden Eagles earlier this week and finished with a career-high 26 points and 11 rebounds in the Vols' 80-68 victory over Marquette. You see, Chism is 6-9, 242 pounds and a legitimate high-major big man. Marquette has nobody who fits that description. Bruce Pearl noticed it on film and exploited it on the court.

"Wayne had a favorable matchup," Tennessee's coach said, "and he took advantage of it."

So the question is simple: How many more will take advantage of it?

Remember, Marquette plays in the Big East, and that name has taken on a literal meaning this season. There is Pittsburgh with DeJuan Blair (6-7, 265 pounds and averaging 13.1 rebounds), Notre Dame with Luke Harangody (6-8, 251 pounds and averaging 12.4 rebounds), Connecticut with Hasheem Thabeet (7-3, 261 pounds and averaging 12.1 rebounds), Syracuse with Arinze Onuaku (6-9, 275 pounds and averaging 7.6 rebounds), Louisville with Samardo Samuels (6-8, 240 pounds and averaging 6.1 rebounds), and Georgetown with Greg Monroe (6-11, 250 pounds and averaging 5.8 rebounds).

Marquette's best post threat?

Try Lazar Hayward.

Sure, Hayward is having a nice junior season (averaging 15.9 points and 10.2 rebounds). But he's listed at 6-6 and is probably closer to 6-5, and when he stands next to Thabeet it looks like Teller standing next to Penn. Also worth noting is that Marquette ranks 315th nationally in average height, according to KenPom.com, meaning the Golden Eagles are the second smallest team from a BCS-affiliated conference, ahead of only Nebraska (ranked 343rd).

This is significant because there is usually a correlation between a team's size and the effectiveness of its interior defense. That's why nobody should be surprised that opponents are making 50.1 percent of their 2-point field goal attempts through 10 games against Marquette.

That number ranks 201st nationally.

(Tennessee made 66.7 percent of its 2-point attempts against Marquette.)

"We've just got to fight; we don't have a choice," Williams said. "We've just got to work and get better and find ways to keep the ball out the paint."

That's easier said than done. And if Marquette limps into Selection Sunday you'd be wise to assume this'll be the reason, because in a bit of a scheduling nightmare, the Golden Eagles close the regular season with consecutive games against Georgetown (Monroe), Connecticut (Thabeet), Louisville (Samuels), Pittsburgh (Blair) and Syracuse (Onuaku).

Holy moly, that's going to be tough.

Or as I like to call it, a tall task for a short team.

http://www.sportsline.com/collegebasketball/story/11179990

[mwbauer7]

Calling Chris O'Tule!

[StillWarriors]

Not writing off this year, BUT, it sure will be nice to have legit size next year. I'm so sick of our guys having to scrap like hell just to compete b/c they are so undersized. As frustrated as we are as fans, imagine how it must feel for DJ, Wes, Jerel and Lazar-and they never show it. Kudos to them.

[willie warrior]

Who is responisble for this. Crean left that cupboard bare.

And don't offer the excuse that bigs are hard to find.

Second smallest school average height around in major conferences.

That is unacceptable. Crean should be quartered for this.

[MuMark]

http://www.basketballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=82

[chcsportsfan]

There are high school basketball teams that dont start people under 6'3....and our whole team (currently available to play) maxes out at 6'6.5...really depressing...

[chapman]

Remember, we did anticipate having Mbakwe, Fulce, and Otule playing right now.  Plus T. Taylor and Nick Williams weren't tiny for the 1 and 2/3 spots, so looking at what we have on the floor now as opposed to what Crean had planned is misleading, even if his plan wasn't going to stack us with height.

Going by listed heights for next year:

Fulce -6'7"
Williams -6'7"
Maymon -6'7"
Roseboro -6'9"
Otule -6'10"
McMorrow -7'0" (said in an interview he expects to be 7'1" or 7'2" next year, can't remember which)

While it's fun to see the Big Three as seniors even if they have no interior help save undersized Lazar, and the 6 above players, Cadougan, and Buycks have yet to play a minute, it will still be refreshing to see some decent size on the court.

Another tidbit from the article: Nebraska is the only BCS team behind us in size.  While they were drawing on similarities between the styles of play at the time and saying it was a good thing, wouldn't it have been better to scrimmage a team that had a little size to it?  I suppose it doesn't make that much of a difference.

[StillWarriors]

If Cadougan is the real deal as advertised it'll be a fun team to watch over the next 4 years. Looking forward to it.

[rocky_warrior]

If Cadougan is the real deal as advertised it'll be a fun team to watch over the next 4 years. Looking forward to it.

Isn't it always** fun to watch Marquette?

** - With the exception of watching MJax play point-center and getting clobbered by UL.

[rocky_warrior]

http://www.basketballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=82

Good article - but I'm not sure you need all those stats to say it's ok for guards to be short, as long as your PF and C are tall.  Common sense, no?

The deeper message here is that all those coaches lusting after seven-footers with hands of stone and happy feet don't have the wrong idea. They may end up getting a defensive presence that the vertically challenged can't provide. Conversely, coaches shouldn't be so quick to pass on a short kid simply because of his height, especially if his team already has some size up front.

[AlumKCof93]

As fans, we can wait til next year, which is kind of silly considering we'll only have Hayward with any college experience.

The shame of this season is that its the last for Matthews, McNeal, and DJ.  These 3 deserve better - they're hard workers who represent the university very well.  But in their senior season - which should be their time to shine - they have to overcome so much b/c of Crean.  As we go through this season, I think the fans should recognize that Crean let these guys down, they aren't letting the fans down when they lose.

[ATWizJr]

+1

[ChicosBailBonds]

Who is responisble for this. Crean left that cupboard bare.

And don't offer the excuse that bigs are hard to find.

Second smallest school average height around in major conferences.

That is unacceptable. Crean should be quartered for this.

True....but we also had Trevor who was here after Crean left.  For some reason, Trevor didn't want to play for Buzz and he left.  Trevor would have been big for us this year.  Crean didn't cause O'Tule's foot to break either or Fulce's knee cap to break.  Both signed to play for Tom Crean.  So your comments aren't exactly telling the entire story.

Unfortunately, rumors are that another current player may be leaving as well that currently plays for Buzz.  I guess time will tell.  Though he's not a big.


Meanwhile, Crean is having no problem landing bigs at IU which begs the question, did he not want bigs at MU or couldn't get bigs at MU, because he's getting them at IU.  My guess is that he always wanted bigs but couldn't get them here for whatever reason.  It's not like he was ignoring them, we finished as the bridesmaid too many times. 

[rocky_warrior]

My guess is that he always wanted bigs but couldn't get them here for whatever reason.  It's not like he was ignoring them, we finished as the bridesmaid too many times. 

Actually - I think he was just too obsessed with making sure we had ball handlers after the Diener fiasco.  He went after guards harder than he went after bigs, and the big realized that.

I also think he might have been realizing the error of his ways near the end of his tenure (and now at IU).  Nonetheless we're left with a huge hole either way.

BTW - you don't know if Trevor was sticking around even if Crean stayed.    And while am at it, it's pretty clear (to me) that Fulce signed with Buzz (not Crean), since he followed him from A&M, to NO, and finally to MU.  You can't convince me he was EVER going to sign for Crean without someone named Buzz Williams involved.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Actually - I think he was just too obsessed with making sure we had ball handlers after the Diener fiasco.  He went after guards harder than he went after bigs, and the big realized that.

I also think he might have been realizing the error of his ways near the end of his tenure (and now at IU).  Nonetheless we're left with a huge hole either way.

BTW - you don't know if Trevor was sticking around even if Crean stayed.    And while am at it, it's pretty clear (to me) that Fulce signed with Buzz (not Crean), since he followed him from A&M, to NO, and finally to MU.  You can't convince me he was EVER going to sign for Crean without someone named Buzz Williams involved.

Well recruiting classes are always, 100% assigned to whomever the head coach is.  That's just the reality of it.  Michigan State when they announced their signing classes in the late 1990's weren't saying the Cleeves signed with Tom Crean even though Tom Izzo is the head coach.  Or Michael Beasley signing with Bob Huggins even though it was because of the assistant coach.

That doesn't mean I don't disagree with you that he came to MU because of Buzz.  Then again, Buzz wouldn't be at MU if Crean didn't hire Buzz.  Fact of the matter is, Fulce signed a national letter or intent to play at MU when the coach was Tom Crean and the head coach ALWAYS gets the credit for the recruiting classes just as he gets the blame for the transfers, etc.  Just the way it is.  When I was at IU, Coach Knigh NEVER went on a recruiting trip.  His assistants did everything and yet it was portrayed that the kid signed to play for IU and play for COACH KNIGHT.  It was always funny the first couple of practices when the new recruits would show up and they didn't play well.  Knight would lay into the staff and ask why they signed all these crappy players for him to coach.


On Trevor, I'm almost certain he wasn't going to stay if Crean stayed.  When Crean left, that appeared to be the open door for Trevor to stay.  Then Trevor changed his mind a few months later.  It happens.

We're short on bigs, no question about it.  But then again we would have three more bigs playing right now if it weren't due to transfer or injuries.  Two of those three will come back soon enough and they were both signed while Crean was the head coach.

[rocky_warrior]

Yes, technically he was a Crean recruit.  But you still can't convince me the he was here for Crean.

But it doesn't matter who you assign these recruits to, we still have a big hole this year, and it's not Buzz's fault.

[BuzzSucksSucks]

It's a poignant if-only story, worthy of national coverage as the season unfolds, how our Big-3 have defined the term Warriors.  With all three chasing the scoring record, I think we can agree that this is one very special team, even with our weaknesses down low.

[The Lens]

Chicos TM is a nut case who may have left regardless of who was coaching.  I don't think it's as cut and dry as he didn't want to play for Buzz.  There were red flags around his recruitment since he signed.  I have a friend in the Cities who is very tight with a rival AAU coach, he said 0% chance TM would last at MU.

TC became enamored with a 3 & 4 guard offense.  He felt it would define him.  He had wonderfully balanced classes early on but chose to go in different direction post FF.  Ego?

I love how people will sit here and say it's tough to recruit big men to MU...well Merritt came, a solid role player in Sanders came.  Mike Deane got Lovette.  It can be done. 

[77ncaachamps]

Yes, technically he was a Crean recruit.  But you still can't convince me the he was here for Crean.

But it doesn't matter who you assign these recruits to, we still have a big hole this year, and it's not Buzz's fault.

+1

Maybe TC meant: "I can now recruit big men! I can now recruit big men!"

[ChicosBailBonds]

Yes, technically he was a Crean recruit.  But you still can't convince me the he was here for Crean.

But it doesn't matter who you assign these recruits to, we still have a big hole this year, and it's not Buzz's fault.

Let's reverse it.  If Crean was still here and Buzz Williams left, do you think:

A) Fulce and Otule would have left to follow Buzz?

B) MU would have let them out of their NLI because an assistant coach left?



Again, I am not disagreeing with you AT ALL that they came because Buzz Williams recruited them.  But at the end of the day, they are playing for the head coach, not the assistant coach.  The Head Coach decides the minutes, decides if he's a starter, decides if he's in the doghouse, etc, etc.  You sign to play for the school and the coach.

This is why the answer to B above is almost certainly a Hell No, and the answer to A above is a very unlikely no.  Fulce did follow Buzz on several occasions, would he do it for a 3rd time?  Maybe, but what's he going to be, a 24 year old  sophomore if he did?  At some point you stay.  Otule I'm almost certain would have stayed at MU if Crean was the head coach.

The head coach gets the credit for the recruiting classes and gets the blame for the transfers.  It's the way of the world because at the end of the day, assistant number 1 or 2 doesn't get to decide how often he plays or where he plays.  So that player better be damn sure the head coach he is going to play for has his best interests at heart, because the assistant can only do so much at that point.

[RedWebster]

Chicos -- I'm curious. You've admitted that Crean was something of a douchebag. Why are you such an apologist for the guy?

[rocky_warrior]

Let's reverse it.  If Crean was still here and Buzz Williams left, do you think:

Whoa, now you're starting speculative arguments just to prove that the guys signed with Crean?  I know, they technically signed with Crean, but who gives a crap?

Lemme recap what I'm saying, and try to keep the thread on-topic:  Even with Fulce and Otule coming in this year, Marquette has a deficiency in the frontcourt because you can't rely on 1st year big men to solve all your problems.

In my first post I stated Crean kinda had a woody for guards for too many years, and I think he was finally realizing that near the end.

In my second post I stated that we've got a hole in the middle, and it's not Buzz's fault.

All you've argued with is that the 2 new big men we have this year are Crean's recruits.  Are you trying to say that any frontcourt problem this year is Buzz's fault? Crean brought in 2 guys over 6'6" and if Buzz can't get them to play immediately then it's his problem?  I guess I'm not sure why you keep going on these tangents?

Are you trying to say it really is difficult to get decent big guys at Marquette?  Buzz already got McMorow and Roseboro - we don't know if they'll be better in their positions than Kinsella and Fitzgerald (to pick a couple guys of similar heights), but I'm willing to give them a chance.  Nonetheless, it's a good start because the only player over 6'8" that is eligible to play this year is Otule - and that's a problem for a program in a major conference.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Chicos TM is a nut case who may have left regardless of who was coaching.  I don't think it's as cut and dry as he didn't want to play for Buzz.  There were red flags around his recruitment since he signed.  I have a friend in the Cities who is very tight with a rival AAU coach, he said 0% chance TM would last at MU.

TC became enamored with a 3 & 4 guard offense.  He felt it would define him.  He had wonderfully balanced classes early on but chose to go in different direction post FF.  Ego?

I love how people will sit here and say it's tough to recruit big men to MU...well Merritt came, a solid role player in Sanders came.  Mike Deane got Lovette.  It can be done. 

Yup, and that 3 & 4 guard offense got us to the NCAAs every year....right?  MU is hurting right now because Trevor left, Saunders didn't qualify, Otule and Fulce are hurt.  Good news is that Otule and Fulce will be back.

Maybe the bigs we had that were serviceable (Oooze, Grimm, etc) got tired of MU fans blasting them every time on message boards and decided they didn't want to play for MU?   

[ChicosBailBonds]

Chicos -- I'm curious. You've admitted that Crean was something of a douchebag. Why are you such an apologist for the guy?

I didn't realize I was an apologist, I just state both sides of the argument that so many refuse to.  Hell, reading some comments here you would think we went 0-30 each year and Hitler was coaching.  If that's an apologist, well so be it.


But to answer your question on why I could tolerate his act, it's simple.  I attended MU during the Dukiet era.   

On top of that, Crean did this:

Won 20 games or more almost every year
Put my alma mater on the map nationally where people even out here in California knew who we were...I can't begin to tell you how many prior to that asked "where or what is Marquette"
Final Four
Dwyane Wade
CUSA Title
Big East
Graduated all but one player
NCAA berths
20+ wins over AP top 25 teams
Playing on ESPN, ESPN2, CBS, etc all the time
PR, PR, PR, PR
NO NCAA VIOLATIONS


That's why.  I don't give a rat's ass if the coach is a prick, I want him to perform.  That's what he did.  He took a once proud program that had THREE NCAA wins in TWENTY YEARS....THREE NCAA WINS IN TWENTY YEARS....let's say that for a third time....THREE NCAA WINS IN TWENTY YEARS....and he took that once proud program and got more NCAA wins in one year then we had in 20 years previous combined.

He made us competitive again.  He made people ask where Marquette was again.  And he did it the right way.  He graduated kids, he made them go to class, he made them men who had no trouble approaching alumni and presenting themselves as men, he made them graduate, he did it without NCAA violations.


That's why.   We aren't St. John's, Seton Hall, DePaul, or any other Catholic school that had a once proud basketball tradition because in part (not soley, but in large part) of the success Tom Crean brought to MU.

I don't want to go back to the days of sucking ass.  Now, I think Buzz is doing a great job.  And yes, I'm pissed at how Crean left and the fact he did leave, but with all the B.S. he had to put up with from alumni, I don't blame him.  Deane wanted out for the same reasons.  KO did as well.  Our alumni and fans can be pretty incredible, very entitled at times....especially during a two decade era when we were God awful.  I hope Buzz can keep it going.  I pray we don't return to those dog days or become St. John's, DePaul, etc. 


That's why.  If Buzz can do everything that Crean did and be the nice, humble guy he seems to be, then I'll be ecstatic. 

I want results done the right way with kids graduating and no NCAA violations.  I got that from Crean.  I hope I get that from Buzz.

That's why

[ChicosBailBonds]

Rocky

No, I'm not arguing at all that the frontline problem is Buzz's fault.  Trevor left for whatever reasons he left.  Next year we'll have more height and the class looks fantastic.  I hope it continues, so far I'm impressed by Buzz.  All I'm saying is that this year's height problem would not be nearly what it is right now if Trevor was here and Otule and Fulce were not hurt.  I assume you would agree with that statement.  My point being, with those three players, our height instantly improves dramatically and suddenly the previous coach didn't leave us in a height lurch expressed here.  I certainly don't blame Buzz for injuries (though plenty of people here blamed previous coaches for injuries) and I have no idea why Trevor was going to transfer with Crean here, Crean leaves....Trevor stays and then Trevor decides to leave anyway months later.  The kid obviously has some priority issues.

Peace