It all boils down to recruiting

[NYWarrior]

Trend, Lott, Kinsella should not be on a D1 roster at least not anything but a low major team.  Burke will be OK but is a green soph and Ooze has developed but started with a trmendous deficit never playing HS ball....Oneill, Deane, and Dukiet put toghether better front courts!

All true.  Oooze is a keeper and Burke has promise since time is on his side --- but Trend, Lott and Kinsella were all desperate reaches.

[Harrison]

and people who do not understand the game better keep saying our guards need to drive more and shoot better!!?? no kidding, would that not be nice!!, but when your front court is so poor that it does not have to be respected the zone pushes up.  Both the Prov. and Syr cuse zones were extended, their bigs played up which forces our shooters farther out and makes driving even more difficult.  Why are teams able to do that? pretty simply becuase they hold zero respect for our bigs offensive abilities and know they can guard them with one man and recover in time.  When your front court is so deficient it make the job of the guards infinitely more difficult. 

(But remember its just a guards game...but a question on the it's guards game statemnet....if so why do schools spend such time recruiting and developing 4's and 5's?  Would teams not be better off with 5 guards?  Why the fight for top 150 bigs by all these schools?  I guess they are not listening to Chicos? chico's methinks Tom Crean alone is dispelling your "theory" )

[rocky_warrior]

Well, last year Marquette wasn't much different int he frontcourt, and we still did fine.  The big difference in the team?  We lost Novak - the guy who forced teams to extend their defense.

A great frontcourt would be wonderful, but we don't have it.  Don't know why people feel the need to complain about it ad nauseam. 

[IAmMarquette]

Trend, Lott, Kinsella should not be on a D1 roster at least not anything but a low major team.  Burke will be OK but is a green soph and Ooze has developed but started with a trmendous deficit never playing HS ball....Oneill, Deane, and Dukiet put toghether better front courts!

All true.  Oooze is a keeper and Burke has promise since time is on his side --- but Trend, Lott and Kinsella were all desperate reaches.

Can we all lay off Lawrence for a bit? He's been here for half a season, and played, what, 20minutes total? If that? Let's see the kid play before we throw him under the bus.

[MU71]

Well, last year Marquette wasn't much different int he frontcourt, and we still did fine.  The big difference in the team?  We lost Novak - the guy who forced teams to extend their defense.

A great frontcourt would be wonderful, but we don't have it.  Don't know why people feel the need to complain about it ad nauseam. 

And didn't Novak play the frontcourt and lead our team in rebounding???

[NYWarrior]

And didn't Novak play the frontcourt and lead our team in rebounding???

yes, but statistically MU is a better rebounding team this year than last year.

[rocky_warrior]

And didn't Novak play the frontcourt and lead our team in rebounding???

Well, he lead in rebounding.  And was technically the 4, but he didn't play the frontcourt.

[Warrior Farls]

You are absolutely correct on the recruiting thing.  Yes we have some decent to good guards, but unless you are Chicos you need more than that to win.  (see Prov., Wisco, and Syr.)  People like to say all the time on this board "well if you dont like Crean we could also ways go back to Dukiet"  Well I was in school during Dukiet and Oneill and I will say that the front court that Tom Crean has assembled is no better than the assortment that Dukiet put together.  Joe Nethen is 2x the player as were Ty Baldwin and Trevor than anything on our roster the last 3 years.  Apart from Scott Merritt 7 years ago who had more than his share of inadequacies those 3 Dukiet kids are superior to anything Crean has done.  As vomit inducing a lineup of Grosse, Luerck, Nethen and some of those guys were it is better than what we have now.  Then as far as Oneill is concerned his players were not only vastly better coached and prepared but the lineup of players like Abraham, Key, Mcilvaine, Mccaskill, Crawford, even guys such as Shaw and Joseph are vastly superior to the collection that we have now.  This group is not even low major quality.  Yet crean has the Final 4, Big East, and the Al to recruit with, how is it Dukiet and Oneill could sign superior up front talent?

[Warrior Farls]

As vomit inducing a lineup of Grosse, Luerck, Nethen and some of those guys were it is better than what we have now.

You're kidding, right?

[MU71]

And didn't Novak play the frontcourt and lead our team in rebounding???

yes, but statistically MU is a better rebounding team this year than last year.

We haven't played anyone yet so the statistics can't be measured until we play more of our conference schedule.  Our rebounding numbers in the last 2 conference games weren't very stellar.  As for Novak playing the frontcourt, he certainly did on defense.  And we also had Grimm to take up space, play defense and do some screening to keep other teams' big boys off the boards.  Bottom line, we need either an inside presence or outside shooting (nice to have both.)  Novak brought a little of both (a lot of one.)  To say our frontcourt isn't much different than last year simply is not correct.

[NYWarrior]

"To say our frontcourt isn't much different than last year simply is not correct. "

Um, never said that. 

Regardless, based on tempo free stats (and cumulative) MU is a better rebounding team this year vs last year. 

[MU71]

"To say our frontcourt isn't much different than last year simply is not correct. "

Um, never said that. 

Regardless, based on tempo free stats (and cumulative) MU is a better rebounding team this year vs last year. 

Sorry, responding to 2 posts - Rocky Warrior said it. Also sorry, don't know what "tempo free stats" is.   

[Harrison]

Novak helped in the same sense a good front court would help it made us less than one dimensional.  the most difficult teams to stop a re multi dimensional.  We are not.  Novak helped spread the defense and gave them something else to worry about. This year without Novak they have one thing to stop ...the drive.   they can have 5 defenders concentrating on the drive and literally forget about anything else. lastly, he led us in rebounding.
And to the poster that Questioned my statement on Dukiet.  yes, i beleive the Front court of Powell, nethen, Luerck and grosse and Ty Baldwin is better than we currently have.  Dukiet got fired for it crean a lifetime contract.  and yes joe Nethen is better than any big we currently have.  grosse is no worse than kinsella.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Powell was a great player for Marquette. We'd kill to have somebody like him right now. Baldwin was decent, but I recall him getting arrested for punching somebody outside O'Donahue's. I'd still like to have him, though.

[rocky_warrior]

As for Novak playing the frontcourt, he certainly did on defense. 

Novak was a liability on defense.  He did improve his senior year, but only to the point of being "ok". I'm pretty sure the guys we have in now defend at least as well as Novak.

And we also had Grimm to take up space, play defense and do some screening to keep other teams' big boys off the boards. 

Grimm played an average of 7 or so minutes per game.  I loved him, and he played hard nosed D, but losing him wasn't losing a lot in the frontcourt.  Besides, most people are complaining about frontcourt "studs" that can score. 

Bottom line, we need either an inside presence or outside shooting (nice to have both.)  Novak brought a little of both (a lot of one.)  To say our frontcourt isn't much different than last year simply is not correct.

We agree on the shooting, but as you look at the offensive frontcourt, it really hasn't changed much.  Only the shooting has, and that was my main point.

Novak helped in the same sense a good front court would help it made us less than one dimensional. 

This thread has drifted quite a bit.  But I think you're actually coming around to the "guards game" argument   You see, if we had guards that could shoot (ala Novak), you wouldn't be complaining about the frontcourt so much this year.

Dukiet got fired for it crean a lifetime contract.

Uhhh...I wasn't around for that period of MU hoops, but I believe Dukiet got fired for losing correct? That's something Crean hasn't done yet (losing season that is).

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Dukiet got fired for it crean a lifetime contract.

Uhhh...I wasn't around for that period of MU hoops, but I believe Dukiet got fired for losing correct? That's something Crean hasn't done yet (losing season that is).
[/quote]

Holy moly, we'd have to be pretty bad to finish below .500 with the pathetic non-conf. schedule we play. As it is, we were lucky to get by Idaho St., got beat by North Dakota St. and are not off to a good start in the Big East.

[MU71]

Rocky...we are coming closer together.  Now if I can just get you to understand that Novak WAS a part of our frontcourt and kept a weak #4 off the court, we might agree.  Novak brought a ton of points, the most rebounds on the team, an outside threat and played adequate defense.  But probably most important, he enabled us to keep only 1 weak frntcourt player on the court instead of 2.  That alone makes our frontcourt a lot different than last year and not as good.  The inside scoring hasn't changed but the rest has.(Also, although I don't have any stats in front of me, I do think you'd find that near the end of last year after Amo stopped getting any minutes at all, Grimm played quite a bit more than 7 minutes.)

[Nukem2]

MU 71 has hit the nail on the head.  Novak was a very good "4" as a senior (on top of his shot).  A huge loss at the "4".

[Harrison]

PRN is absolutely correct about Dukiet in so far as when I was in school before Conference days marquette played a who's who of schedules. Even early in the smaller conferences we only played 10- 12-14 games ayear in conference.  We did not feast on 15 bunnies, Dukiet got fired but I will argue that this years team and those two absolutely pathetic products Crean brought to the court in 2004 and 2005 would not have been any where near the 14-2 or what ever these three teams were if they played any type of non-conference schedule that MU played back then. 

[wiscwarrior]

I recall the 67-68 season Tip Off season w/Al McGuire began with St Thomas! Al knew all about "cupcakes" it was his term. Non-Conference is preseason and many games are meant for experimenting. You don't do that against good mid-majors if you want to reach the tournament.

[Sir Lawrence]

1.  Right now I think St. Thomas, a D-3 school, has a better team than Cardinal Stritch, a D-2 team.

2.  MU wasn't in a conference when Al was coaching.

[wiscwarrior]

It was completely different then. Many good college basketball schools (including many in the Big East were independent). Non-conference games with Dayton, DePaul, Xavier and Notre Dame were on the Schedule. MU began the year playing schools like South Dakota State and St Thomas and others just like this year to get ready for Dayton and ND. BTW, the Cardinal Stritch game took the place of Athletes in Action, not some d-2 team. Because they are a team, theey give us better games than AIA.

[Harrison]

until we joined the Big east the strenght of schedule of the Dukiet and Oneill teams was more difficult than Mu's schedule during 2004 and 2005.  creans 2004 and 2005 teams went 13-2 or whatever against a terrible precon schedule.  They would have been .500 playing the competion Oneill and Dukiet played in their first 15.  I will also argue conference Usa in 2004 and 2005 were only slightly stronger than were the Great Midwest and even the MCC were.   So yes Crean won 19 games in those 2 years but 12-15 were absolute gimmees.  His teams sucked due to a lack of recruiting and transfers, and here we go again, no seniors to speak of, no leadership, and a team that has only 6-7 Big East caliber players. We need to recruit better and keep kids on campus...after 7 years this is still a big question mark.