6 Fouls

[MuggsyB]

If you look at the contrast between the rugby that was being played by Baylor yesterday, vs the fouls called on charges to the rim it's pretty clear something should be done.  I don't think it should be that difficult to make a no call on flops as opposed to a guy barreling over some one on the way to the rim.  And if a guy 6 feet, 170 "charges" into a guy 260 lbs and the defender looks like they've been shot, maybe a charge isn't the right call.

But obviously this continues to be difficult for the zebras so the question is how do you change it for the better?  My take is if it's not egregious, or if it's questionable at all whether it's a block or a charge, swallow the whistle. Stop making calls when guys are clearly flopping or it's not conceivable the contact would result in a player acting like a TV wrestler.  The other option is that a non-egregious offensive foul results in a turnover only and not a personal foul. 

[panda]

The Big East experimented with 6 fouls for conference games in 91-92 and it was awful.  Much more physical play, more whistles and made the game worse to watch, and they eliminated the next season.  1 foul per 8 game minutes to foul out is what they do in the NBA and it makes sense for college, too.  I hate charge calls and I would be all four anything to cut back on those, maybe moving that semi-circle out further or just always calling it a block to stop it altogether.

I only played through high school , and I remember either my junior or senior year in high school 78-79 we started practicing drawing charges and I remember thinking then "What kind of chicken #%&@ is this?"  Felt like cheating then.  Challenge the shot at the rim, much more fun way to play and to watch.

Why would adding a foul change the way the game is officiated ?

[Dr. Blackheart]

The Big East experimented with 6 fouls for conference games in 91-92 and it was awful.  Much more physical play, more whistles and made the game worse to watch, and they eliminated the next season.  1 foul per 8 game minutes to foul out is what they do in the NBA and it makes sense for college, too.  I hate charge calls and I would be all four anything to cut back on those, maybe moving that semi-circle out further or just always calling it a block to stop it altogether.

I only played through high school , and I remember either my junior or senior year in high school 78-79 we started practicing drawing charges and I remember thinking then "What kind of chicken #%&@ is this?"  Felt like cheating then.  Challenge the shot at the rim, much more fun way to play and to watch.

Well the big difference versus 91-92 is the shot clock has added a lot more possessions. Gone are the 4 corner stalls, sitting in a zone. Add a sixth is my vote but keep the FT team bonus penalties.

[ATL MU Warrior]

Would it get harder to watch though?  There would still be offensive fouls called but not for secondary defenders who slide underneath.

I guess that's a personal opinion as to whether it would make the game less enjoyable. To me, yes it would.

[Scoop Snoop]

If you look at the contrast between the rugby that was being played by Baylor yesterday, vs the fouls called on charges to the rim it's pretty clear something should be done.  I don't think it should be that difficult to make a no call on flops as opposed to a guy barreling over some one on the way to the rim.  And if a guy 6 feet, 170 "charges" into a guy 260 lbs and the defender looks like they've been shot, maybe a charge isn't the right call.

But obviously this continues to be difficult for the zebras so the question is how do you change it for the better?  My take is if it's not egregious, or if it's questionable at all whether it's a block or a charge, swallow the whistle. Stop making calls when guys are clearly flopping or it's not conceivable the contact would result in a player acting like a TV wrestler.  The other option is that a non-egregious offensive foul results in a turnover only and not a personal foul.

I see where you are trying to go with this Muggsy, but I disagree about leaving so much up to the discretion of the refs. The fewer variables, the better. You opinion of my suggestion of treating a charge like traveling-no foul, just loss of possession- and two FTs for a blocking foul? After all, a sliding block is a deliberate foul. Inadvertent hands on a shooter's arm are two shot fouls, so I think a block in front of a driving player deserves two FTs.

[Big Papi]

Calling a charge when an offensive player has given up his dribble, taken a step, going full speed at the basket and the defensive player still sliding into a spot is stupid and dangerous.  Thats should be a blocking call every time.  Call it that way so when teams start giving up and ones consistently, that practice will stop.  Over half of these charging calls are crap.  Offensive player is being punished.  Call it the right way, keep the 5 fouls and call it a blocking foul.

[CTWarrior]

Why would adding a foul change the way the game is officiated ?

It shouldn't, but with an extra foul players were more physical.

[BrewCity83]

Calling a charge when an offensive player has given up his dribble, taken a step, going full speed at the basket and the defensive player still sliding into a spot is stupid and dangerous.  Thats should be a blocking call every time.  Call it that way so when teams start giving up and ones consistently, that practice will stop.  Over half of these charging calls are crap.  Offensive player is being punished.  Call it the right way, keep the 5 fouls and call it a blocking foul.

+100

We have a winner.

[bilsu]

I don't think charges on shot attempts should be personal fouls.

I thought this way for a long time. Sometimes charges are obvious, but other times it is a judgement call. Losing the ball and maybe even a basket is a big enough penalty. It should just be a turnover. They also need to get rid of the flop warning. I never seen two flop warnings given, but I think getting a technical for two flop warnings on a team for what is a judgement call is too big of a penalty. I think it hurt Villanova's defense the last game, when they got the first flop warning. I thought the Villanova defender took a pretty good shot to the chest and the player should not have gotten a flop warning.

[Newsdreams]

I don't think charges on shot attempts should be personal fouls.

So you can run anyone over, ok

[MUfan12]

So you can run anyone over, ok

The college game would be so much better off if they stopped calling charges when help defenders slide in.

If the offensive player lowers a shoulder or pushes off while driving, still a charge. But those other plays are dangerous and refs can't call them correctly.

[Herman Cain]

I am a big fan of the system as it exists with 5 fouls. Adds a lot of strategy to the game when a key player fouls out or had to sit on the bench for a long period of time .

[brewcity77]

So you can run anyone over, ok

Not making them personal fouls doesn't mean they don't have consequence. Losing possession and waiving off the shot is still a deterrent.

I'm also not a fan of the sliding in. It becomes such a judgment call and you can have guys who take off early and end up with a foul and change of possession when the defender wasn't even in position as the offensive player left the floor. In terms of individual call types that need to be addressed, the block/charge is definitely the biggest one.

[Scoop Snoop]

Not making them personal fouls doesn't mean they don't have consequence. Losing possession and waiving off the shot is still a deterrent.

I'm also not a fan of the sliding in. It becomes such a judgment call and you can have guys who take off early and end up with a foul and change of possession when the defender wasn't even in position as the offensive player left the floor. In terms of individual call types that need to be addressed, the block/charge is definitely the biggest one.

Agree completely regarding loss of possession (and waiving of made basket) as a sufficient penalty for charging without adding a foul to the mix. Since it is already a "judgement call", perhaps the refs should be allowed to determine if the driving player had enough room to stop. That may be about an arm's length. There already are rules/judgements as to whether or not a defender allowed a shooter both enough space to shoot and also come down after his shot.

Getting back to the title of the thread: if the charging rules changed (and maybe illegal screens penalized with just loss of possession  and not being a foul-just like traveling) I think I will walk back my suggestion of a 6th foul being allowed in OT.   

[brewcity77]

They should also have central scheduling for the officials. Goodman talked about this last night on Field of 68 After Dark. Refs will work 2-3 games in a row in different parts of the country, and typically drive between games to save money on travel. There should be central scheduling that has guys working games in a centralized areas and if they move from northeast to midwest to south, set up a week or two in that area before they move on, and make sure their travel is well-coordinated, not just driving between spots. Here are a few examples:

Roger Ayers

• Feb 12: FSU at UNC in Chapel Hill, NC
  
• Feb 13: Maryland at Purdue in West Lafayette, IN
  
• Feb 14: Duquesne at Davidson in Davidson, NC
  
• Feb 15: Butler at DePaul in Chicago, IL
  
• Feb 16: Miami at Louisville in Louisville, KY
  
• Feb 17: Minnesota at Penn State in University Park, PA

Bert Smith

• Jan 12: Villanova at Xavier in Cincinnati, OH
  
• Jan 13: Butler at Georgetown in Washington, DC
  
• Jan 14: Davidson at Richmond in Richmond, VA
  
• Jan 15: NC State at Duke in Durham, NC
  
• Jan 16: Cincinnati at Wichita St in Wichita, KS
  
• Jan 17: Notre Dame at Howard in Washington, DC
  
• Jan 18: Kansas State at Texas in Austin, TX
  
• Jan 19: TCU at Oklahoma State in Stillwater, OK
  
• Jan 20: Old Dominion at Rice in Houston, TX

Doug Sirmons

• Nov 24: Vanderbilt at Pittsburgh in Pittsburgh, PA
  
• Nov 25: Iona v Alabama in Kissimmee, FL
  
• Nov 26: Dayton v Kansas in Kissimmee, FL
  
• Nov 27: Coppin State at East Carolina in Greenville, NC
  
• Nov 28: Dayton v Belmont in Kissimmee, FL
  
• Nov 29: Mississippi Valley State at Vanderbilt in Nashville, TN
  
• Nov 30: Bellarmine at West Virginia in Morgantown, WV
  
• Dec 1: Florida at Oklahoma in Norman, OK
  
• Dec 2: Oral Roberts at TCU in Fort Worth, TX
  
• Dec 3: UTRGV at Texas in Austin, TX
  
• Dec 4: UAPB at Baylor in Waco, TX
  
• Dec 5: K-State at Wichita St in Wichita, KS

Six days, nine days, twelve days in a row doing games. Bouncing all over the country. The NCAA acts like a league when it comes to unifying March but eschews any responsibility when it comes to the rest of the year, letting leagues compete for officials and run guys ragged. They need a top-down approach that has better direction, better education and training, and better scheduling so guys aren't driving from state to state for a week or weeks straight. And when these guys have a day off, it's usually one day then back to another 4, 5, or 9 day stretch.

And these were just some snippets of the first few officials I looked at. You look at any of the officials people are familiar with, the James Breeding, Pat Driscoll, Jamie Luckey, John Gaffney, Doug Shows types and they will all have stretches like this. Limit the number of days in a row they can work, centralize where they are working so they stay within a 100-200 mile radius for longer stretches, and rotate them between regions so you don't have such grueling travel schedules. I know many of the officials do this to themselves, but they do it because the NCAA allows them to do it to themselves.

[#UnleashSean]

People are seriously considering making a charge just a turnover? How much do we want to handicap defense lol.

[The Sultan]

People are seriously considering making a charge just a turnover? How much do we want to handicap defense lol.

Significantly.  Have you watched these tournament games?

[The Sultan]

They should also have central scheduling for the officials. Goodman talked about this last night on Field of 68 After Dark. Refs will work 2-3 games in a row in different parts of the country, and typically drive between games to save money on travel. There should be central scheduling that has guys working games in a centralized areas and if they move from northeast to midwest to south, set up a week or two in that area before they move on, and make sure their travel is well-coordinated, not just driving between spots. Here are a few examples:

Roger Ayers

• Feb 12: FSU at UNC in Chapel Hill, NC
  
• Feb 13: Maryland at Purdue in West Lafayette, IN
  
• Feb 14: Duquesne at Davidson in Davidson, NC
  
• Feb 15: Butler at DePaul in Chicago, IL
  
• Feb 16: Miami at Louisville in Louisville, KY
  
• Feb 17: Minnesota at Penn State in University Park, PA

Bert Smith

• Jan 12: Villanova at Xavier in Cincinnati, OH
  
• Jan 13: Butler at Georgetown in Washington, DC
  
• Jan 14: Davidson at Richmond in Richmond, VA
  
• Jan 15: NC State at Duke in Durham, NC
  
• Jan 16: Cincinnati at Wichita St in Wichita, KS
  
• Jan 17: Notre Dame at Howard in Washington, DC
  
• Jan 18: Kansas State at Texas in Austin, TX
  
• Jan 19: TCU at Oklahoma State in Stillwater, OK
  
• Jan 20: Old Dominion at Rice in Houston, TX

Doug Sirmons

• Nov 24: Vanderbilt at Pittsburgh in Pittsburgh, PA
  
• Nov 25: Iona v Alabama in Kissimmee, FL
  
• Nov 26: Dayton v Kansas in Kissimmee, FL
  
• Nov 27: Coppin State at East Carolina in Greenville, NC
  
• Nov 28: Dayton v Belmont in Kissimmee, FL
  
• Nov 29: Mississippi Valley State at Vanderbilt in Nashville, TN
  
• Nov 30: Bellarmine at West Virginia in Morgantown, WV
  
• Dec 1: Florida at Oklahoma in Norman, OK
  
• Dec 2: Oral Roberts at TCU in Fort Worth, TX
  
• Dec 3: UTRGV at Texas in Austin, TX
  
• Dec 4: UAPB at Baylor in Waco, TX
  
• Dec 5: K-State at Wichita St in Wichita, KS

Six days, nine days, twelve days in a row doing games. Bouncing all over the country. The NCAA acts like a league when it comes to unifying March but eschews any responsibility when it comes to the rest of the year, letting leagues compete for officials and run guys ragged. They need a top-down approach that has better direction, better education and training, and better scheduling so guys aren't driving from state to state for a week or weeks straight. And when these guys have a day off, it's usually one day then back to another 4, 5, or 9 day stretch.

And these were just some snippets of the first few officials I looked at. You look at any of the officials people are familiar with, the James Breeding, Pat Driscoll, Jamie Luckey, John Gaffney, Doug Shows types and they will all have stretches like this. Limit the number of days in a row they can work, centralize where they are working so they stay within a 100-200 mile radius for longer stretches, and rotate them between regions so you don't have such grueling travel schedules. I know many of the officials do this to themselves, but they do it because the NCAA allows them to do it to themselves.

I agree with you and like the idea in concept.  But the current system costs the NCAA nothing so unless the conferences are going to be willing to forgo income from the tournament, it's just not going to happen.

[brewcity77]

I agree with you and like the idea in concept.  But the current system costs the NCAA nothing so unless the conferences are going to be willing to forgo income from the tournament, it's just not going to happen.

I think it's more important for the regular season. These guys are likely getting more rest during the tournament, it's the November-early March that needs to be regulated. It might even save money because as currently constructed, the refs get a set stipend for travel between games, which is why many of them drive (save money on airfare and pocket the difference). Look at the stretch for Ayers. Instead of driving from North Carolina to Indiana to North Carolina to Illinois to Kentucky to Pennsylvania in 6 days, you keep him roughly where he starts.

• Feb 12: FSU at UNC in Chapel Hill, NC (ACC)
  
• Feb 13: Mercer at UNCG in Greensboro, NC (SoCon)
  
• Feb 14: Duquesne at Davidson in Davidson, NC (A-10)
  
• Feb 15: Hofstra at Elon in Elon, NC (CAA)
  
• Feb 16: Winthrop at Gardner-Webb in Boiling Springs, NC (Big South)
  
• Feb 17: Troy at Appalachian State in Boone, NC (Sun Belt)

Now I know it wouldn't always be that clean, but that is 6 different conferences in 6 days without having to drive or fly across the country to ref the games. Then give him a day off and travel to the Midwest where he could do Notre Dame (ACC), Loyola Chicago (A-10), Marquette (Big East), Milwaukee (Horizon), UW-Madison (Big 10), and Northern Iowa (MVC) within a week without more than a 3 hour drive at any point. Then the Northeast, and so on.

As the schedules are pretty well set in September or October, they could start creating a matrix months in advance to reduce the workload, reduce the travel difficulties, and reduce the stress. For the leagues, you would also reduce the competition for officials because they would know who they are going to get. Then grade throughout the year based on set criteria and use those grades to dictate who refs in the NCAAs, NIT, and who is available to be contracted by the smaller (CBI, CIT) tournaments.

[Scoop Snoop]

People are seriously considering making a charge just a turnover? How much do we want to handicap defense lol.

Sliding in front of a driving player in a basketball game is like a car driver who, looking for someone to sue, cuts right in front of another car and slams on the brakes. If you think this is a "handicap" for defense, why not add tripping? Brad and Grayson showed what an effective defense tactic that could be. Add Brad's patented crotch slap and now you got a great defense!

[bilsu]

I have not watched the NBA this year, so I do not know if the coaches still have a challenge. Last year they did have a challenge and the most common thing challenged was a charge call and a lot of them were overturned.