Buzz .. 20th best Coach..?

[The Equalizer]

So, your statement that SLU is "near parity with MU" is based on nothing more than they won one fewer tournament games - as did apparently MU-like programs such as Lehigh, Norfolk State, and Murray State -  and that they're ranked ahead of MU in some poll, taken 6+ months before the season begins, you've yet to produce.
Flimsiest. Argument. Ever.

Except this isn't the argument.  Those were merely two supporting facts.

MY argument is that Majerus deserves to be considered in the top 30 coaches, and was based on his current performance at St Louis combined with his success at Utah and Ball State.

The issue you're being called out here isn't you belief Rick is a good coach. It's your belief that the St. Louis basketball program is by any measure on or near par with Marquette's.

Let me correct you one more time:  I've said several times now that I believe MU is a far superior program in terms of program success, conference, fan support, TV coverage, wins over time, players in the NBA, top 100 recruits, NJCAA AA recruits, more marquee opponents  etc. etc. etc.

I've also pointed out the fact that despite all of our program-level advantages, last year's SLU performance was almost as good as ours.  Your counter was to point out other programs (Norfolk State, Murray State) have done the same.  My response to you is that none of the programs you cite had a coach that has taken 3 different teams to the tournamnet and/or reached a final four. 

I've also pointed out the fact that as of right now some of the experts think that St. Louis is better than we are. Your counter to repeatedly state things might change by the end of the season.  So what?  Things might NOT change. 

Meanwhile, SOMETHING caused these national basketball experts to think that way in the first place.  Its a that they think St. Louis is better as of right now.

[Murffieus 1]

Some of those coaches get a higher ranking than the deserve because they are great recruiters-----not because they are sound fundamental BB coaches.

My top seven would be Stevens, Buzz, Pitino, Donovan, Majerus, Izzo, Bo Ryan.

Guys like Roy Williams, Boeheim, Calhoun are great recruiters, but not among the elite technical teaching BB coaches.

[avid1010]

Some of those coaches get a higher ranking than the deserve because they are great recruiters-----not because they are sound fundamental BB coaches.

My top seven would be Stevens, Buzz, Pitino, Donovan, Majerus, Izzo, Bo Ryan.

Guys like Roy Williams, Boeheim, Calhoun are great recruiters, but not among the elite technical teaching BB coaches.

I don't think you can separate coaching from recruiting...  There's nothing to say that Buzz (or many other coaches) couldn't run the same program as Bo, but then their recruiting would also dip like Bo's...it makes looking at strictly X's and O's so impossible.  I hate coach Cal (and believe he still cheats), but just trying to look at the X's and O's and player development in a season, I'm not sure a coach like Bo could have gotten that group of players to a National Championship, and I'm sure Coach Cal couldn't have gotten as much out of the UW players as Bo did.  Was Phil Jackson a great coach, or was he just really good at managing ego's?

[brewcity77]

Some of those coaches get a higher ranking than the deserve because they are great recruiters-----not because they are sound fundamental BB coaches.

My top seven would be Stevens, Buzz, Pitino, Donovan, Majerus, Izzo, Bo Ryan.

Guys like Roy Williams, Boeheim, Calhoun are great recruiters, but not among the elite technical teaching BB coaches.

Yes, because the 6 national championships between the three of them clearly shows they aren't the kind of guys you want running your program 

Being a great recruiter is part of being a great coach. The simple truth is that teams with better players have a higher chance of success, and very few teams make the Final Four or (especially) win a NC without McDonald's All-Americans. Recruiting is as important, if not sometimes even more important, than technical teaching.

[Murffieus 1]

I'm not minimizing the importance of recruiting-----in fact it's more than 50% of the equation-----hence 6 NCAA championships.

Roy Williams had 4 guys who did or will go in the first round and laid an egg (again)----the only time Boeheim won the NCAA was when he had a Super Star-----and Calhoun has 3 or 4 guys  every year (or more) who will go in the NBA first round.

You give Buzz, Majerus, Stevens, Donovan, or Ryan that type of talent and you'll see more consistency in challenging for the NCAA title than the aforementioned recruiter coaches.

[avid1010]

I'm not minimizing the importance of recruiting-----in fact it's more than 50% of the equation-----hence 6 NCAA championships.

Roy Williams had 4 guys who did or will go in the first round and laid an egg (again)----the only time Boeheim won the NCAA was when he had a Super Star-----and Calhoun has 3 or 4 guys  every year (or more) who will go in the NBA first round.

You give Buzz, Majerus, Stevens, Donovan, or Ryan that type of talent and you'll see more consistency in challenging for the NCAA title than the aforementioned recruiter coaches.

i don't think bo ryan could have done a better job than guys like calapari, williams, or boeheim given the same talent.  the guy coaches a system.  donovan has proven he can win when he's able to get top talent, but then again running the basketball program at UNC is much different that running it in gainsville where the pressure is lessened due to football.  just as managing the type of talent that calapari deals with is much different than the type of player bo brings in. 

[Murffieus 1]

Given the same talent and attitude-----Bo does a better job with tempo and x & os than Calapiri. The key to Badger overachievement is their tempo and simplicity resulting in relatively few mistakes.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Given the same talent and attitude-----Bo does a better job with tempo and x & os than Calapiri. The key to Badger overachievement is their tempo and simplicity resulting in relatively few mistakes.

Too bad he's a dick and can't recruit, hey?