Player vs. Recruiting vs. Character

[dgies9156]

Lloyd  was a definitely a highly sought 5 star guy.  Actually was good offensively, but too fat to do any more.

Lloyd was a sad case in the sense that he was one of the top High School recruits in the nation when he signed with Marquette. Between signing and showing up on campus, I believe ole Chocolate Moose added about 100 pounds. My recollection was the coaches were shocked and when Lloyd messed up his knees he was through.

Incidentally, if we're going to talk about untapped talent potential, we ought to be starting with Bernard Toone. I think he drove Al crazy because he did less with more than any other Warrior Al coached.

[4everwarriors]

Absolutely correct on BT. Still remember it today, like it was yesterday when Johnnie Owens introduced him to the crowd at the Arena during a Warriors' game when he was here as a high school student on a recruiting visit. Toone still performed well enough to be drafted by the 6ers.

[4everwarriors]

Moore was from Clairton (PA) High School.

Then I'll stand erected.

[LloydMooresLegs]

As much of a wash-out as he was, After the dust settled, Llyod was the second best recruit in that class (better than Paul Newman, Vic Lazaretti; Kerry Trotter was a very nice player).  Now that is damning with faint praise!

[LloydMooresLegs]

Or Lloyd.

[The Maestro]

Kerry Trotter was a McDonald's All-American, the last one to come play at MU. I think he was more highly rated than Lloyd Moore that year.

[godzilla]

I don't have an agenda, I was curious as to why others are so hard on Vander.  The answer is more than just whining.  I wanted to know how much of a role the three categories I listed have to do with why others rip on him.  I know why I don't like him.... I want to know why others don't. 

There is a difference between being a fan of a program and blind dumb loyalty to everything and anything with an MU logo on it.  This comes from a 20 year season ticket holder.

I expect more from MU student athletes past and present.  If that makes me a bad fan then I am a bad fan.

There is a good portion of MU fans who probably have relatives at MU, or know people attending MU, and have heard what Vander has done "off the court."  And this is not just the fight, which he instigated, btw.  How does that not affect your ability to cheer for the guy if he's just not a good person?

[muwarrior69]

We had a player leave mid-season for the ABA and possibly cost us a national championship.

That was a no brainer. Chones did the right thing. Which one of us would not leave school, even today, if we were offered a few million dollars to accept a job.

[MerrittsMustache]

There is a good portion of MU fans who probably have relatives at MU, or know people attending MU, and have heard what Vander has done been accused of doing "off the court."  And this is not just the fight, which he instigated, btw.  How does that not affect your ability to cheer for the guy if he's just not a good person?

Correction.

Do you know him personally? Is that how you know he's not a good person? Or do you just go by rumors?

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Correction.

Do you know him personally? Is that how you know he's not a good person? Or do you just go by rumors?

I know he is a bad person by his body language and failure to high 5.

[RawdogDX]

There is a good portion of MU fans who probably have relatives at MU, or know people attending MU, and have heard what Vander has done "off the court."  And this is not just the fight, which he instigated, btw.  How does that not affect your ability to cheer for the guy if he's just not a good person?

I Got in 2 fights in college. I guess I'm a horrible person.

[GGGG]

There is a good portion of MU fans who probably have relatives at MU, or know people attending MU, and have heard what Vander has done "off the court."  And this is not just the fight, which he instigated, btw.  How does that not affect your ability to cheer for the guy if he's just not a good person?

College kids getting in fights and getting into trouble has no bearing on whether or not they are a "good person."  Everyone makes mistakes...oftentimes more than once.  Good people learn from them and change.

[The Maestro]

That was a no brainer. Chones did the right thing. Which one of us would not leave school, even today, if we were offered a few million dollars to accept a job.

Agreed. The story of Al coming over to Chones' apartment and opening the refrigerator to find it nearly empty. That's when he told him to take the money. I also agree that with Chones, it was probably the best MU team of all time. I think they still hold the school record for most wins in a season too.

[4everwarriors]

Oh, you mean the crib in the Catholic Knights Tower where Chones made his digs?

[godzilla]

Correction.

Do you know him personally? Is that how you know he's not a good person? Or do you just go by rumors?

I know people that know him personally is the accurate description.  And I know someone who has witnessed one of the "incidents."  If you want to root for him, fine.  But, imo, he's not a good person and has shown ZERO remorse for his actions.

[GGGG]

I know people that know him personally is the accurate description.  And I know someone who has witnessed one of the "incidents."  If you want to root for him, fine.  But, imo, he's not a good person and has shown ZERO remorse for his actions.

I know people who know him personally, interact with him almost daily, and say things pretty much opposite.  That he's a good kid who is immature and who is light years ahead of where he was as an adult when compared to last year.

[MerrittsMustache]

I know people who know him personally, interact with him almost daily, and say things pretty much opposite.  That he's a good kid who is immature and who is light years ahead of where he was as an adult when compared to last year.

Based on my conversations with a friend in the athletic office, I was going to say basically this same thing. Sometimes that freshman to soph "improvement" isn't just in terms of basketball.

[copious1218]

I know people that know him personally is the accurate description.  And I know someone who has witnessed one of the "incidents."  If you want to root for him, fine.  But, imo, he's not a good person and has shown ZERO remorse for his actions.

Well hell, if you know someone that knows Blue, feel free to blast him on the internet without ever actually meeting him and forming your own opinion - that makes you much more mature than you claim Blue to be.

[Goose]

Obviously character is important but I think people jump to conclusions too quickly. These are kids and every f up they are involved with is brought to our attention. VB was a big time recruit and has had off courst issues which coupled with inconsistent play makes him an easy target.

Great play on the court helps make off court issues seem to be less important. I remember Bo Ellis giving a stellar two word speech after getting caught with weed by MPD. He simply said "I'm sorry" and went out and did what he was brought here to do, play big time ball.

Over the years we have had our share of character issue guys but really think it is minor issue. VB needs to play better and continue to mature as a person. He was a good get as recruit and hope he makes himself into the player he can be.

[tower912]

That was a no brainer. Chones did the right thing. Which one of us would not leave school, even today, if we were offered a few million dollars to accept a job.

Wasn't criticizing.   Merely offering history and context.   I'd have made the same decision.

[bilsu]

Outside of the bar incident I do not know what Vander has or has not been involved in. I do believe there are other players that had issues also. I do not believe those issues are greatly affecting my opinion of Vander. I am much easier on Vander this year than I was last year. Last year Vander was forcing things to much. He was continuously hurting MU by taking bad shots or turning the ball over and that drove me crazy. This year his decision making is much better. I can accept the fact he cannot shoot as long as he does not think he should be shooting. Also, I think we should consider that he is being asked to play out of position. As far as I know he does this without complaining. He is not big enough to play small forward in Big East. His natural position probably is point guard, but there is no way I would start him at point over Cadougan.