SEC Accepts A&M...but with a condition

[Clarence]

These tables show the value to the institution....not the value to the television network that is shelling out the $$$. 

Yes, but everyone assumes that the football schools of the big east are itching to break off from the ball only schools for the increased football $.  While the fact is that schhols like syracuse make 3x as much money on basketball.  To the big east schools protecting it's Bball brand is just as important if not more important than increasing football revenues.

[Aughnanure]

Yes, but everyone assumes that the football schools of the big east are itching to break off from the ball only schools for the increased football $.  While the fact is that schhols like syracuse make 3x as much money on basketball.  To the big east schools protecting it's Bball brand is just as important if not more important than increasing football revenues.

Good point. I just wonder for how long do the schools like Syracuse see keeping the basketball schools around as a benefit. If you suddenly add in Kansas, Kansas St & Missouri, your top line bball schools are Kansas, UCONN, Syracuse, Pittsburgh, & Louisville. That's deep enough to maintain/increase the amount of money they make on basketball w/out the bball onlies. Not to mention, they secure 1 of the top 3 historic programs in all of college basketball.

[Clarence]

In that scenario, what incentive does Syracuse or any of the other football members have to go it alone.  Why not keep the rivalries and tv sets that Georgetown, villa nova, st. Johns etc. bring to the Bball conference? 

[brewcity77]

In that scenario, what incentive does Syracuse or any of the other football members have to go it alone.  Why not keep the rivalries and tv sets that Georgetown, villa nova, st. Johns etc. bring to the Bball conference?

Money. A 12-team basketball conference with Syracuse, UConn, Pittsburgh, West Virginia, Louisville, Cincinnati, Kansas, Kansas State, Missouri...that's a loaded conference. That includes four of the most successful programs of the past 30 years in 'Cuse, UConn, 'Ville, and KU. They'd get 6-8 bids per year, why on earth would they want to share that basketball money with the basketball-only schools? Would we really add that much?

[Clarence]

But that's my point,  why not have a conference that gets 12 bids a year?  The Bball schools don't get any football Money anyway, so why give up the added money and tv markets that the Bball schools provide AND go to 12 in football.

I really think, the only threat to us in this whole thing is if ND leaves the big east for the big ten.  As long as the Irish stay independent and in the big east for everything else we are in good shape. 

[brewcity77]

But that's my point,  why not have a conference that gets 12 bids a year?  The Bball schools don't get any football Money anyway, so why give up the added money and tv markets that the Bball schools provide AND go to 12 in football.

I really think, the only threat to us in this whole thing is if ND leaves the big east for the big ten.  As long as the Irish stay independent and in the big east for everything else we are in good shape.

Because 8 bids pay out to 12 teams at a better rate than 12 teams pay out to 20 teams. And as far as the football money...it's complicated, I remember seeing the breakdown and it's not as simple as just saying we don't get that money. I don't know how it works, but I do believe the basketball teams do glean a very minor portion of that money.

[Clarence]

The difference in $ is marginal on the NCAA bids.  My point is there is no financial reason,  and definitely no TV reason to get rid of the BBall schools.  Unless they go to 16 team super conferences I see no credible reasons for the big east to jettison some very popular and profitable basketball programs. 

[Aughnanure]

The number of bids has nothing to do with this. Its all about TV money, and the question is do the basketball only schools add enough on their own to increase the amount of TV dollars the league would get PER TEAM. The league is already loaded, so would Nova, Marquette, St. John's and GTown really increase it even more, or would the slice of the pie just become smaller.

Don't get me wrong, we add value -  but at that point, in a league that loaded I don't think the bball onlies add enough to increase the tv revenue PER TEAM, and especially when you add in Seton Hall (one team, I hope we remove when we form a new league), Providence & DePaul. The overall number would certainly go up, but not each team's individual pay out. 

[Litehouse]

But the bball-onlies are in the major media markets, and create more interest in those markets for the Big East overall, which theoretically should increase the value of the TV contracts.  There are stories on the local teams and the Big East in the local papers and local news in those markets, which provides free publicity to generate more interest in the leage overall.

We add value for the TV contract, but I guess the ultimate question is, do we add enough to keep everything together.

[muhs03]

But the bball-onlies are in the major media markets, and create more interest in those markets for the Big East overall, which theoretically should increase the value of the TV contracts.  There are stories on the local teams and the Big East in the local papers and local news in those markets, which provides free publicity to generate more interest in the leage overall.

We add value for the TV contract, but I guess the ultimate question is, do we add enough to keep everything together.

Yes, Nova adds Philly (sort of - it's a huge professional sports city and Nova cant sell-out unless they bring in an attractive opponent that has a Philly fanbase). But do you really think the BE needs SJU for the NYC market? If SJU delivered NYC, every conference in the country would be offering them to join their conference even as a partial member. There is nothing SJU offers that UConn, Rutgers and Cuse collectively cant. Providence? Nothin. SHU? Nothin. 

[brewcity77]

Yes, Nova adds Philly (sort of - it's a huge professional sports city and Nova cant sell-out unless they bring in an attractive opponent that has a Philly fanbase). But do you really think the BE needs SJU for the NYC market? If SJU delivered NYC, every conference in the country would be offering them to join their conference even as a partial member. There is nothing SJU offers that UConn, Rutgers and Cuse collectively cant. Providence? Nothin. SHU? Nothin. 

You really think the Big ?, SEC, ACC, or any other BCS conference would go after St. John's as a basketball only? What in their history indicates they would do that, even for the NYC market? And what would persuade St. John's to leave? The Big East has a huge payout both for their basketball TV contract and are perennially the biggest earner in the NCAAs based on sheer volume of teams and has placed at least one team in the Final Four in 4 of the 6 years of the current Big East configuration. That's a lot of payout money for teams.

As a basketball-only, the Big East is the only BCS conference that has offered membership to teams like SJU to date. And it's the most successful basketball conference, which leads to the most money for St. John's. I'm sure plenty of other conferences would kill for SJU, but I'm not sure there's anyone else who's legitimately in the running.

[muhs03]

You really think the Big ?, SEC, ACC, or any other BCS conference would go after St. John's as a basketball only? What in their history indicates they would do that, even for the NYC market? And what would persuade St. John's to leave? The Big East has a huge payout both for their basketball TV contract and are perennially the biggest earner in the NCAAs based on sheer volume of teams and has placed at least one team in the Final Four in 4 of the 6 years of the current Big East configuration. That's a lot of payout money for teams.

As a basketball-only, the Big East is the only BCS conference that has offered membership to teams like SJU to date. And it's the most successful basketball conference, which leads to the most money for St. John's. I'm sure plenty of other conferences would kill for SJU, but I'm not sure there's anyone else who's legitimately in the running.

What is your definition of a lot of money? It has been reported that the bball schools in the BE are making less than $2M under the current contract. UConn took home $2.275M last year....more than any school due to the special bonuses the conference paid them. http://www.theday.com/article/20110403/NWS01/304039856/-1/NWS

The ACC has a better pay-out because their conference does just as well, if not better in the NCAAs and the money isnt divided as many ways.

And no, no other conference would ever go after a bball school, even a nyc bball school. No one wants partial conference membership.

[Clarence]

Interesting Article

http://articles.courant.com/2011-08-03/sports/hc-jacobs-big-east-column-0803-20110803_1_john-marinatto-ncaa-rulebook-ncaa-president-mark-emmert

"The Big East has never divulged how its money is split. It has been speculated 60 percent is divided among all the members and 40 percent among the football schools. Right now, that would give the basketball schools $4.6 million and football schools about $10.3 million. By contrast, the SEC, Big Ten and Pac-12 schools get about $21 million a year."

Assuming this split is correct If the next deal is for say $200MM a year.  the BBall schools(8) would get 7.06MM and the football schools(9) would get $15.9MM.  With the same contract, but going to 12 football teams without the bball only teams, the per year payout is 16.7MM.  

Is $800k per year worth losing decades old rivalries, Madison Square Garden, the Philadelpia(Nova), Washington DC(Gtown), Chicago(ND/DePaul), and Milwaukee media markets?  

If I was Syracuse/UCONN/Pitt, etc. the dollars would have to be much bigger for me to take that risk.  

[brewcity77]

If SJU delivered NYC, every conference in the country would be offering them to join their conference even as a partial member.

And no, no other conference would ever go after a bball school, even a nyc bball school. No one wants partial conference membership.

Okay...I'm confused. So 2 hours ago every conference in the country would offer SJU as a partial member, and now no one wants partial conference membership? Which is it?

My contention is that the Big East is the only BCS conference that will have partial members like SJU or Marquette. And there isn't a single non-BCS conference that would have a chance in hell of offering more money than the Big East does. For a team like them or us, there's the Big East, then there's everyone else (C-USA, Horizon, A-10, etc).

[muhs03]

Okay...I'm confused. So 2 hours ago every conference in the country would offer SJU as a partial member, and now no one wants partial conference membership? Which is it?

My contention is that the Big East is the only BCS conference that will have partial members like SJU or Marquette. And there isn't a single non-BCS conference that would have a chance in hell of offering more money than the Big East does. For a team like them or us, there's the Big East, then there's everyone else (C-USA, Horizon, A-10, etc).

I think you misinterpreted that first quote you cited. My point was that SJU absolutely does not deliver NYC. IF THEY DID, they would be FAR more valuable than they actually are.

Based on Brett McMurphy's tweets, the Big East turned down $1.4BB over 9 years, and that the breakdown was approx. 65-75% football and 25-35% basketball. So:

At 65/35 split where 65% of the money is split 9 ways and 35% of the money is split 17 ways:

$14,437,182.28 per football school per year
$3,202,614.38 per non-football school per year

At 75/25 split:

$15,250,544.66 per football school per year
$2,287,581.70 per non-football school per year.

[brewcity77]

But St. John's does deliver the NYC market. I'm not saying they give a stranglehold on it, but if you are the Big Ten and add SJU (hypothetically) it would easily lube the gears to get the BTN on NYC cable packages. Do you really think those two things aren't related?

[Aughnanure]

But St. John's does deliver the NYC market. I'm not saying they give a stranglehold on it, but if you are the Big Ten and add SJU (hypothetically) it would easily lube the gears to get the BTN on NYC cable packages. Do you really think those two things aren't related?

No, the Big Ten would add Rutgers, UConn, Syracuse, Boston College all before even thinking about SJU. This isn't even worth discussing, these conferecne are only interested in teams that increase their basketball AND football money.  Our best hope is to go to 20-24 teams and add a few extra bball onlies to keep our voting power - Xavier, Butler, St. Louis. If not, better hope BYU, Notre Dame and Texas still want a non-football conference to keep their other sports in.

[brewcity77]

No, the Big Ten would add Rutgers, UConn, Syracuse, Boston College all before even thinking about SJU. This isn't even worth discussing, these conferecne are only interested in teams that increase their basketball AND football money.  Our best hope is to go to 20-24 teams and add a few extra bball onlies to keep our voting power - Xavier, Butler, St. Louis. If not, better hope BYU, Notre Dame and Texas still want a non-football conference to keep their other sports in.

You completely missed my point.

I don't think the Big Ten or any other BCS conference would be interested in St. John's. I never said they would be. muhs said "If SJU delivered NYC, every conference in the country would be offering them to join their conference even as a partial member." I refuted that. I specifically said "the Big East is the only BCS conference that will have partial members like SJU or Marquette."

But if the Big Ten did poach St. John's, it would allow them to put the BTN into NYC. That's a colossal, impossible, never-going-to-happen if. But that doesn't mean it isn't a true statement.

[bilsu]

Interesting Article

http://articles.courant.com/2011-08-03/sports/hc-jacobs-big-east-column-0803-20110803_1_john-marinatto-ncaa-rulebook-ncaa-president-mark-emmert

"The Big East has never divulged how its money is split. It has been speculated 60 percent is divided among all the members and 40 percent among the football schools. Right now, that would give the basketball schools $4.6 million and football schools about $10.3 million. By contrast, the SEC, Big Ten and Pac-12 schools get about $21 million a year."

Assuming this split is correct If the next deal is for say $200MM a year.  the BBall schools(8) would get 7.06MM and the football schools(9) would get $15.9MM.  With the same contract, but going to 12 football teams without the bball only teams, the per year payout is 16.7MM.  

Is $800k per year worth losing decades old rivalries, Madison Square Garden, the Philadelpia(Nova), Washington DC(Gtown), Chicago(ND/DePaul), and Milwaukee media markets?  

If I was Syracuse/UCONN/Pitt, etc. the dollars would have to be much bigger for me to take that risk.  

I think people have to consider what the ESPN contract is really for. Ask yourself this question. Are they paying the big dollars to get Big East football or basketball? I suspect it is the basketball games that they really want. There is much better football to watch on Saturdays than watching a Big East football game.

[Litehouse]

There's also a huge difference in the amount of programming they get rights to.

For football, there 28 conference games they get the rights to (most of which overlap at the same time slots as other games on Sat.).  In addition, the games are relatively weak compared to other games from other conferences on at the same time.

For basketball, there are 144 games more evenly distributed throught the week in different time slots, many of which are the biggest game on that night.  Plus, there's the conference tournament that anchors ESPN's programming for that week.

The viewers per game may be less than some of the big football games, but ESPN is able to fill a lot of air time with the basketball rights.

[Aughnanure]

You completely missed my point.

I don't think the Big Ten or any other BCS conference would be interested in St. John's. I never said they would be. muhs said "If SJU delivered NYC, every conference in the country would be offering them to join their conference even as a partial member." I refuted that. I specifically said "the Big East is the only BCS conference that will have partial members like SJU or Marquette."

But if the Big Ten did poach St. John's, it would allow them to put the BTN into NYC. That's a colossal, impossible, never-going-to-happen if. But that doesn't mean it isn't a true statement.

Ok thanks, I was getting confused about where you were coming from. The longer Notre Dame stays indy, and if Texas decides to go indy the better it is for us.