Crean loses another recruit

[Pakuni]

Why are you guys even debating this? What are you trying to prove to each other?

You're right. It's a silly debate. I don't believe anyone is trying to claim new coaches are to blame when a former coaches' layers/recruits bail.
Rather, I think - for probably useless reasons, I admit - some are trying to point out the inconsitencies of a certain poster who held Buzz Williams responsible for the likes of Tyshawn Taylor bailing on MU when Crean left.
Well, he statements were made to the effect of "Tyshawn Taylor didn't come to Marquette because he didn't want to play for Buzz Williams and his high school coach ahd never heard of Buzz."
I suppose people can form their own opinions as to whether that's pointing the finger at Buzz.

By the way, I quit my job today for the sole reason that I could no longer stand working for my boss.
But nobody should blame him for my departure.

[Marquette84]

Well, he statements were made to the effect of "Tyshawn Taylor didn't come to Marquette because he didn't want to play for Buzz Williams and his high school coach ahd never heard of Buzz."

I thought Taylor's comments at the time were were to the effect that he had a better relationship with Buzz than with Crean, and that the only way he would still come to MU would be if they hired Buzz as coach.

[mugrad99]

When I started this thread I had no idea it would receive this many posts, last this long, and change subjects so many times.

Shouldn't this be in teal?

[Pakuni]

I thought Taylor's comments at the time were were to the effect that he had a better relationship with Buzz than with Crean, and that the only way he would still come to MU would be if they hired Buzz as coach.

They were.
Which is why a certain poster's claims that he didn't want to play for Buzz are not correct.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

You're right. It's a silly debate. I don't believe anyone is trying to claim new coaches are to blame when a former coaches' layers/recruits bail.
Rather, I think - for probably useless reasons, I admit - some are trying to point out the inconsitencies of a certain poster who held Buzz Williams responsible for the likes of Tyshawn Taylor bailing on MU when Crean left.
Well, he statements were made to the effect of "Tyshawn Taylor didn't come to Marquette because he didn't want to play for Buzz Williams and his high school coach ahd never heard of Buzz."
I suppose people can form their own opinions as to whether that's pointing the finger at Buzz.

By the way, I quit my job today for the sole reason that I could no longer stand working for my boss.
But nobody should blame him for my departure.

Fair enough, but I'm just not sure this is CBB trying to somehow make Buzz look bad. I know some guys around here are convinced that CBB is always trying to dig at Buzz, but I guess I'm just not reading it that way.

Factually, Taylor would have played at MU if Crean had stayed, he left because he didn't want to play for (insert coach here).

Factually, Crawford committed to Sampson. He left because he didn't want to play for (insert coach).

A lot of times it doesn't matter who the coach is (thus the "insert coach"). When a coach leaves, players re-evaluate their situations and often make changes (transferring).

I don't think that is an indictment of Buzz or TC, or Tubby Smith, or anybody. It's just the facts.

[ChicosBailBonds]

They were.
Which is why a certain poster's claims that he didn't want to play for Buzz are not correct.

It's funny how you only take some quotes from what he said and not others.  That's called cherry picking.  Sigh (that's for you Lenny).

Additionally, last I checked, there were multiple players that left, not just TT.  There was TM, SC, NW and TT.


And yes, it's a silly debate and Lenny continues to read things that aren't there. 

[Pakuni]

Fair enough, but I'm just not sure this is CBB trying to somehow make Buzz look bad. I know some guys around here are convinced that CBB is always trying to dig at Buzz, but I guess I'm just not reading it that way.

Factually, Taylor would have played at MU if Crean had stayed, he left because he didn't want to play for (insert coach here).

But this is where we differ. I don't believe this is the fact, and I think Taylor's own comments support what I'm saying.
You are correct that Taylor would have played at MU had Crean stayed. He was contractually obligated to do so. Well, either that or not play at all.
Crean's departure, however, gave him an opportunity to get out of that obligation just when, conveniently enough, a much more prominent program called Kansas came a-calling.
Taylor didn't leave because he didn't want to play for (insert coach here). He left because he did want to play for Kansas. There's a difference.
Let's be honest. 95+ percent of kids in the same situation would do the same. Crean's departure gave Taylor an out, and that out let him go to a better program. It had nothing to do with Buzz, a guy Taylor himself had nothing but good things to say about. It was all about Kansas.

[Pakuni]

It's funny how you only take some quotes from what he said and not others.  That's called cherry picking.  Sigh (that's for you Lenny).

Well, if you have quotes from Taylor - Taylor, not Hurley - that indicate he did not want to play for Buzz, had an issue with Buzz, etc., please post them. Otherwise, I'm not sure what I'm cherry picking. I've seen no quotes to that effect.

Additionally, last I checked, there were multiple players that left, not just TT.  There was TM, SC, NW and TT.

That's true. But I believe Taylor is the only one you've claimed didn't come to Marquette "because he didn't want to play for Buzz Williams."
In fact, if I'm not mistaken, Williams was released several days before Buzz was even named head coach.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

But this is where we differ. I don't believe this is the fact, and I think Taylor's own comments support what I'm saying.
You are correct that Taylor would have played at MU had Crean stayed. He was contractually obligated to do so. Well, either that or not play at all.
Crean's departure, however, gave him an opportunity to get out of that obligation just when, conveniently enough, a much more prominent program called Kansas came a-calling.
Taylor didn't leave because he didn't want to play for (insert coach here). He left because he did want to play for Kansas. There's a difference.
Let's be honest. 95+ percent of kids in the same situation would do the same. Crean's departure gave Taylor an out, and that out let him go to a better program. It had nothing to do with Buzz, a guy Taylor himself had nothing but good things to say about. It was all about Kansas.

Ehhh... we agree 90% and disagree a little (which is no big deal).

I really don't see the difference in a Tyshawn Taylor transfer vs a Jordan Crawford transfer. The coach that they originally signed up to play for left, they re-evaluated their situations, and decided to transfer. It happens A LOT, and it doesn't always have to do with KU taking a Marquette player. Scott Christopherson transferred. I don't think that is because Iowa State came a-calling.

I don't blame the incoming coach (whoever it is) for having some kids transfer. That's just life sometimes.

Also, as far a Taylor "liking" Buzz, I can believe that (Buzz is a likable guy), but obviously Taylor didn't like him enough to stay, which is Taylor's choice and isn't Buzz's fault.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Ehhh... we agree 90% and disagree a little (which is no big deal).

I really don't see the difference in a Tyshawn Taylor transfer vs a Jordan Crawford transfer. The coach that they originally signed up to play for left, they re-evaluated their situations, and decided to transfer. It happens A LOT, and it doesn't always have to do with KU taking a Marquette player. Scott Christopherson transferred. I don't think that is because Iowa State came a-calling.

I don't blame the incoming coach (whoever it is) for having some kids transfer. That's just life sometimes.

Also, as far a Taylor "liking" Buzz, I can believe that (Buzz is a likable guy), but obviously Taylor didn't like him enough to stay, which is Taylor's choice and isn't Buzz's fault.

Well put, not sure why others have such difficulty understanding this.

[Pakuni]

Ehhh... we agree 90% and disagree a little (which is no big deal).

I really don't see the difference in a Tyshawn Taylor transfer vs a Jordan Crawford transfer. The coach that they originally signed up to play for left, they re-evaluated their situations, and decided to transfer. It happens A LOT, and it doesn't always have to do with KU taking a Marquette player. Scott Christopherson transferred. I don't think that is because Iowa State came a-calling.

I don't blame the incoming coach (whoever it is) for having some kids transfer. That's just life sometimes.

Also, as far a Taylor "liking" Buzz, I can believe that (Buzz is a likable guy), but obviously Taylor didn't like him enough to stay, which is Taylor's choice and isn't Buzz's fault.

You're right ...sorta ... and I have no problem with what you're saying.
My issue is with those who state that Taylor isn't at MU because of Buzz Williams. He isn't at MU because there was a coaching change and that change provided him with an opportunity to accept a better offer. By stating that Taylor isn't at MU because he didn't want to play for Buzz (despite the fact he indicated he wanted out days before Buzz's hire) implies that he would have stayed at MU had someone other than Buzz been named coach. I'd suggest that once Crean left and Kansas offered, MU had no chance of keeping Taylor. The fact Taylor said he wanted out well before Buzz was hired would seem to support this. The fact that he said about the only way he'd stay is if Buzz were hired also seems to support this.
Sorry, but the argument that he didn't want to play for Buzz is contradicted by what Taylor said. His decision had nothing to do with Buzz. He just wanted to play for Kansas more than he did Marquette, stunning as that may seem to someone here.

[Lennys Tap]

Well put, not sure why others have such difficulty understanding this.

Your condescending attitude aside, Pakuni and I (and many others) have no "difficulty understanding" the points which 2002 makes. And in spite of the factual inaccuracy of defining Taylor as a transfer, (which alters the equation somewhat) I agree with the gist of his post. What I do have difficulty understanding is why you repeatedly stated the reason MU lost players was "they didn't want to play for Buzz Williams" and when the same thing happened at IU you don't even mention "they didn't want to play for Tom Crean" as a factor. If A is true so is B and vice versa. And it's hypocrisy to state otherwise.

[Dawson Rental]

What's being lost in the discussion about Taylor is that he really didn't initiate his release from his LOI,  Hurley clearly clearly was the one pushing it, and he was the one contacting Marquette about it, and talking to the media.  When Marquette told Hurley that they hadn't received a request for release from LOI for Tyshawn, the first official request from release wasn't signed by Tyshawn as is required, and when MU pointed this to Hurley, it took him a couple of days to get one with Tyshawn's signature.  That's why when Hurley comes up there is always some negative commenting about him from posters.

Clearly, Hurley saw the potential for Tyshaw to go to a better program, and at the very least, encouraged him to do so.

Modification: I do not mean to imply that Hurley was in any way getting something out of this for himself.  But, I do think that Hurley was convinced that Kansas was a better destination for Tyshawn, and probably convinced a possibly reluctant Tyshawn to go that route.

[SERocks]

Hurley is a tool.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Matt Carlino, a shooting guard out of Bloomington ranked number 61 in the espn 100 class for 2011 decommitted from Indiana and is reopening his recruitment.  I am not starting this thread to bash Crean, but what is going on over there?  Crean can't get anyone to commit, and IU looks like it is no better off than when the whole Sampson thing started.  Crean can't have much time left there if this keeps up.

What a head case this guy continues to be...as I said months ago.

He's transferring now from UCLA...just announced.  TOTAL HEADCASE

http://sports.espn.go.com/los-angeles/ncf/news/story?id=5907114

[MARQKC]

What a head case this guy continues to be...as I said months ago.

He's transferring now from UCLA...just announced.  TOTAL HEADCASE

http://sports.espn.go.com/los-angeles/ncf/news/story?id=5907114

Well, yes, a concussion usually is in the head.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Well, yes, a concussion usually is in the head.

LOL.  True, but I was referencing this guy's bouncing around from high to high school, committing and then non-committing, and now transferring out of college. 

[Lennys Tap]

What a head case this guy continues to be...as I said months ago.

He's transferring now from UCLA...just announced.  TOTAL HEADCASE

http://sports.espn.go.com/los-angeles/ncf/news/story?id=5907114

So why are seasoned coaches like Howland and Crean recruiting a TOTAL HEADCASE? If our own board rips an inexperienced guy like Buzz for doing it, I can only imagine the outrage this has caused Bloomington and LA.

[MARQKC]

LOL.  True, but I was referencing this guy's bouncing around from high to high school, committing and then non-committing, and now transferring out of college. 

Hard to find maturity and focus in 18-19 year olds. I like that Buzz looks for that in his recruiting. See Rosiak's blog today about Vander.

[ChicosBailBonds]

So why are seasoned coaches like Howland and Crean recruiting a TOTAL HEADCASE? If our own board rips an inexperienced guy like Buzz for doing it, I can only imagine the outrage this has caused Bloomington and LA.

I would say that you become a headcase over time, don't you?  This kid's family moved him to Bloomington to go to high school (before he was in Arizona).  He verballed to IU.  From I heard internally at IU, there was definitely a cooling on both sides and no one at IU was particularly disappointed when he backed out of his commitment.

Then he goes to L.A. and signs with UCLA, a team desperate for guards and apparently willing to take a chance on him.

Now he's transferred again.   The question, Lenny, is when does the head case label get earned?  When he moved to Bloomington?  Maybe, but I doubt it.  When he decommitted from IU?  Starting to get the label.  When he transfers from UCLA...now it's earned. 

It's a culmination of actions, not the first action.

[Lennys Tap]

 The question, Lenny, is when does the head case label get earned?  When he moved to Bloomington?  Maybe, but I doubt it.  When he decommitted from IU?  Starting to get the label.  When he transfers from UCLA...now it's earned. 

It's a culmination of actions, not the first action.

When? Well, we know it couldn't have been when TC was recruiting him. Or Ben Howland. They wouldn't recruit a kid who's even a bit of a headcase. All of a sudden he's a TOTAL HEADCASE. LOL