The TOKOTO Sweepstakes--2012

[4everwarriors]

Is it just my imagination, or are deflections not in vogue anymore?

[GGGG]

Sultan i apologize i jumped to conclusions i just get sick of all the idiots that say BUZZ cant coach yet about a year ago were saying he is a genius.  Roy willimas or Bob knight would be hard pressed to do much more with our current group.  as a defensive coach i will be the first to say if you cannot stop dribble penetration nothing else really matters ...and Acker and Cubi flat out cannot stop it.

then the Buzz cannot recruit bigs adn now that he has signed some cannot develop them BS is just plain stupid. now this big kid scores 18 in a HS game and Buzz should have signed him over mbao?  i am sorry the stupidity just gets to me at times.

Again i aplogize for lumping you in with the morons.   I will say tho that if Buzz keeps signing kids like junior, Vander, Jamail, and a kid like JP it is 90% of what it takes to becomae a HOF coach

No problem.  My opinion on Buzz is favorable so far, but I want to see where we are in a few years with his guys.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

No problem.  My opinion on Buzz is favorable so far, but I want to see where we are in a few years with his guys.

This.

[MrRivals150]

Going back to the original intent of the topic at hand. I think that Buzz or Bo have a strong chance of signing JP. (Bo recently had lunch at MFHS with Buzz because sophomores can't leave campus) I realize how strong the allure of Duke and NC are but knowing what I know about JP's parents, they may want him to say close to home. The kid doesn't have a cell phone, facebook or even a drivers license.  Buzz or Bo telling JP's parents that he's only 25/90 minutes from home and you can visit him any time they want may have enough pull.

But again... JP still has to maintain/improve his skill set.

JP's stat line would be much more stacked if his HS coach would let him utilize himself more.  Also, JP had 3 fouls on Sunday night and DIDN'T PLAY the 3rd quarter in a basically tied game.  That coach was not smart having JP on the bench the whole quartter.  I ohate when HS coached try to strategize every minute when they have a flat-ut star player (a la Steve Collins and Madison Memorial or last year with Vander).

JP should play 32 minutes every game, I don't care.   Mem. Falls would be just another local white-boy team playing for a conference title instead of playing for a state title.

[martyconlonontherun]

JP's stat line would be much more stacked if his HS coach would let him utilize himself more.  Also, JP had 3 fouls on Sunday night and DIDN'T PLAY the 3rd quarter in a basically tied game.  That coach was not smart having JP on the bench the whole quartter.  I ohate when HS coached try to strategize every minute when they have a flat-ut star player (a la Steve Collins and Madison Memorial or last year with Vander).

JP should play 32 minutes every game, I don't care.   Mem. Falls would be just another local white-boy team playing for a conference title instead of playing for a state title.

Only saw the the first half and the first 10 minutes of the 3rd last night. I couldn't believe they only went to him like 5 times the first half. He finished with I believe 10 shots in the first half, but those came off of steals and rebounds. Meanwhile, I saw a kid pull a jumper from 5 feet behind the 3pt line after one pass into the play set. Of course, JP came back and absolutely dominated the 3rd.

[Marquette84]

My issues with Crean was he was a poor recruiter and not good enough of a coach to compensate for it.  He signed way too many non high major recruits

Serious question--if Crean is such a poor recruiter and poor coach, how did he manage three straight top-5 finishes in the Big East (and leave the cupboard full enough for a 4th)? 

In my mind, if he were a great coach/poor recruiter, 5th place would represent the ceiling for a team that overachieved its talent. 

I expect that if he were a great recruiter/poor coach, 5th place would represent the expectation for a team coasting by on pure talent.

But I cannot see how a team can be both poorly coached and poorly recruited, but still manage a 4th or 5th place finish in the toughest conference in college basketball.

I'll also add that it's frustrating to watch teams, both mid and high major continuously develop big men with a great deal of skill.  I understand why it's difficult, but I don't think it's acceptable.  I have a feeling that if Liam and Otule weren't out, we'd be feeling much different about this subject.

I think the question is whether those teams are successful at the level we want to be.  We don't have a big like Luke Harangody or Greg Monroe.  Where did ND and Georgetown finish in the league standings last year? 

I think the huge question mark--typically never addressed--is whether a player like Monore or Harangody would want to play with a backcourt as strong as MU's.   There is an unstated assumption that
"of COURSE they would!"  I'm beginning to think this isn't the case.  It can be argued that quality big would rather be on a team with adequate guards so that a) he won't be overshadowed and b) he'll be unleashed from anywhere on the court.

Hayward (of all people) had the makings of a good point when he pointed out that Burke was the 5th offensive option on the team last year.  The problem is that no matter WHO we brought in for 2007, 2008 or 2009, that still would have been the case.  If you're a guy like Greg Monroe, do you want to come into a situation where you're the #5 option behind James, McNeal, Matthews and Hayward? 

Tim Maymon aside, I think most bigs that are high-major talent believe that they are going to be able to step in and be one of the go-to players out of the gate.  Monroe certainly was at Georgetown last year--and no matter how good he was, he would not have had such a role had he come to MU last year. Sure, he may have won a starting role over Burke--but he would still have been the 5th option.

I think both Crean and Buzz have the right idea--you can be pretty darn good if you get the guard rotation right.  Then, I think both look at bigs in roughly three categories--Definite High-Major talents, Definite  Mid-Major talents, and Risks-with-potential. 

I don't think there's any difference between Buzz and Crean in their philosophy on the recruitment of bigs. Both went for high-major talent and missed.  Both are bypassing mid-major talent.  Both are going with risky under-the-radar choices in the hope than one turns into something special.   

Right now, I don't see Mbao or McMorrow were any more or less solid than what I thought about Kinsella when he was signed. 

I don't see Otule as any more or less of a potential contributor down the road than Barro. 

Maymon was as much of a talented head case as Mbakwe. 

Roseboro was as much of a longshot as Grimm--both posting fantastic numbers at  schools/conferences without a history of producing D1 players and both getting an offer after one outstanding camp performance.

I think what Buzz still needs is a plan-B--people can argue that Crean's plan B players weren't very good--but I would argue that we would be a much better team this year with a player like Burke or Marcus Jackson or Ousmane Barro.

[avid1010]

I think the question is whether those teams are successful at the level we want to be.  We don't have a big like Luke Harangody or Greg Monroe.  Where did ND and Georgetown finish in the league standings last year? 

I think the huge question mark--typically never addressed--is whether a player like Monore or Harangody would want to play with a backcourt as strong as MU's.   There is an unstated assumption that
"of COURSE they would!"  I'm beginning to think this isn't the case.  It can be argued that quality big would rather be on a team with adequate guards so that a) he won't be overshadowed and b) he'll be unleashed from anywhere on the court.

There's a major difference between what MU has had down low the last 5 years and a player the likes of Monroe/Harangody.  Something in between would be just dandy.

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

Serious question--if Crean is such a poor recruiter and poor coach, how did he manage three straight top-5 finishes in the Big East (and leave the cupboard full enough for a 4th)? 

Really, Joanie? Which "three straight top-5 finishes in the Big East" were those? I must have missed that 3 year top-5 finish stretch..

[bma725]

Really, Joanie? Which "three straight top-5 finishes in the Big East" were those? I must have missed that 3 year top-5 finish stretch..

You must not pay attention at all.

2006:  MU was 4th
2007:  MU was T5
2008:  MU was T5

That would be a 3 year Top 5 Finish stretch.

[MR.HAYWARD]

Mu84's question:

Serious question--if Crean is such a poor recruiter and poor coach, how did he manage three straight top-5 finishes in the Big East (and leave the cupboard full enough for a 4th)? 

In my mind, if he were a great coach/poor recruiter, 5th place would represent the ceiling for a team that overachieved its talent. 

I expect that if he were a great recruiter/poor coach, 5th place would represent the expectation for a team coasting by on pure talent.

But I cannot see how a team can be both poorly coached and poorly recruited, but still manage a 4th or 5th place finish in the toughest conference in college basketball.

Simple answer...Crean was a poor recruiter be cuase he signed 2 good classes in 8-9 years.  His first class paid dividends but that was followed up by one bad class after another.  Resulting in completely embarrasing years 5 and 6 of his teanure where we not only missed the dance but were routinely embarrasessed by mediocre C-Usa teams.

How will people react to Buzz if he has teams like Crean had in year 5 and 6, with barely 2-3 high D1 players on the team bgetting blown out and then scoring 40 points in an NIT game etc.  Go back and look at some of the scores those years, they were embarrassing and the product was pathetic for a 5th/6th year coach.

Then he signed another good class in the 3 amigos that class to some degree saved his job.  Unfortunately he followed it with 2-3 more years of bombs.  Yes we had 3 solid finishes in the big East.  But again with any support or for that matter where could we have gone without the worst front court in the BE those 3 years?   Adiitonally, there was no one else, cupboard was bare...Jerel gets hurt Mu is dead.  Dominic gets hurt Mu is dead ...Crean is bringing in MEAC type players off the bench.  
I dont think Crean recruited to the level he could have.  I lso I never said Crean was a poor coach a"poor" coach, I said "decent".  Sorry I called your girlfriend "decent" and you got al emotional and heard "poor".  Two good recruiting classes in 9 and all the flops and transfers and the misses etc. cause me to give him the label poor.  

Consider this how does a guy kids have never even heard of get a job the national media and local fans said he was not worthy of and un prepared for sign a class better than any of the 9 classes Crean signed even though Crean put himself on the big stage?  Then the Crean apologists said well Buzz cannot repeat it Crean could only signe classes when he had tons of playing time to give out ( ie the two good classes he signed)  then Buzz follows it with arguably an even better class.    Addiotnally, Crean cant get bigs becuase bigs dont want to go to Mu.  Then Buzz signs two 7 footers and a 6'10 guy in 18 months.  I mean i dont want you to have to say anything bad but I mean good golly look at the entire laundry list of Crean recruits and how many of them were really high major players?  And i dont want to hurt your feelings but look at what Buzz has done with absolutely no rep  and Crean was great at making excuses but Buzz has flat out got it done on the recruitng trail.  Do you think Buzz would have signed Brandon bell, carlton christian, James Matthews Jamil Lott & mike Kinsella after going to a Final 4?  Soryy but the facts are the facts    

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

You must not pay attention at all.

2006:  MU was 4th
2007:  MU was T5
2008:  MU was T5

That would be a 3 year Top 5 Finish stretch.

You must not pay much attention to Marquette basketball. We were 6th in 2007.

[avid1010]

You must not pay much attention to Marquette basketball. We were 6th in 2007.

Then you better correct ESPN as well....http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/conferences/standings?confId=4&year=2007

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

Then you better correct ESPN as well....http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/conferences/standings?confId=4&year=2007

You're right. I guess we actually beat 'cuse that year. Do you really not realize that ESPN is using overall percent when the conference record is the same? My goodness.

Are the Crean apologists this desperate to make up sh!t in his defense? I think I have more Crean "bashers" on block, but in the race to make up stuff out of thin air, the apologists seem to win by a mile. Is it that necessary to make up by one place the standings of one year? Yikes.

[bma725]

Is it that necessary to make up by one place the standings of one year? Yikes.

No one is trying to change the standing except you.

The Big East Conference officially considers MU's finish in the 2006-07 season to be T5, not 6. 

Just because they lost the tie breaker and were the 6th seed in the conference tournament does not mean that they finished in 6th place in the conference.

[avid1010]

You're right. I guess we actually beat 'cuse that year. Do you really not realize that ESPN is using overall percent when the conference record is the same? My goodness.

Are the Crean apologists this desperate to make up sh!t in his defense? I think I have more Crean "bashers" on block, but in the race to make up stuff out of thin air, the apologists seem to win by a mile. Is it that necessary to make up by one place the standings of one year? Yikes.

I hate TC, and MU finished 5th.  The two have nothing to do with each other.

[Marquette84]

Simple answer...Crean was a poor recruiter be cuase he signed 2 good classes in 8-9 years.  

I think most would disagree with your assessment.  Is a class with Steve Novak "poor"?  Is a class with Travis Diener "poor"?    Is a class with Lazar Hayward "poor"?  Is a class with Trevor Mbakwe "poor"?   Is a class with Tyshawn Taylor "poor"?  Is a class with Robert Jackson "poor"?

Was the room for improvment?  Sure.  

Was is "poor"?  Hardly.

Resulting in completely embarrasing years 5 and 6 of his teanure where we not only missed the dance but were routinely embarrasessed by mediocre C-Usa teams.

The frustrating thing with you is that you ignore inconvenient facts, use 20/20 hindsight, or both.

Isn't the 2005 season comparable to Kevin O'Neill's 2nd season 11-18 record where we not only missed the dance, but the NIT as well, and were routinely embarassed by MCC teams?  

And isn't the reason for the sub-par performance the loss of the PG on the team (Diener to injury, KStewart kicked off by KO).

But you give KO a pass, and rip Crean every chance you get.

How will people react to Buzz if he has teams like Crean had in year 5 and 6, with barely 2-3 high D1 players on the team bgetting blown out and then scoring 40 points in an NIT game etc.  Go back and look at some of the scores those years, they were embarrassing and the product was pathetic for a 5th/6th year coach.

My guess is that if Buzz precedes those seasons with a Final Four appearance, and follows them up with three straight top 5 finishes in the big east powered by four of the top 10 scorers in MU history, MOST people will look at his overall track record and not judge him based on his worst performances.

Yes we had 3 solid finishes in the big East.  But again with any support or for that matter where could we have gone without the worst front court in the BE those 3 years?  

For all your anger over Crean on this point, we're actually worse up front this year, and won't improve much next year, barring a miracle.  The HS bigs that can step in an make a difference year one are gone.   Mbao will need a miracle to even step up to Ousmane Barro quality next year.

I lso I never said Crean was a poor coach a"poor" coach, I said "decent".  Sorry I called your girlfriend "decent" and you got al emotional and heard "poor".  Two good recruiting classes in 9 and all the flops and transfers and the misses etc. cause me to give him the label poor.  

I apologize for the misunderstanding.  You used the words "stunk" and "terrible" earlier in the thread.   Forgive me for substituting the word "poor".

"The beloved Crean was great with Wade but stunk with Deanes left overs and then was terrible again after DWade left, signing the big 3 and saved his job. "

 

Consider this how does a guy kids have never even heard of get a job the national media and local fans said he was not worthy of and un prepared for sign a class better than any of the 9 classes Crean signed even though Crean put himself on the big stage?  

You never heard me say that.  I think HS kids react favorably to most new coaches, and given them a great recruting class or two--especially when the new coach is a high-major assistant who has been out dealing with these kids already for several years.

Thats why you saw me favoring Buzz over the mid-major head coaches like Brad Brownell or Jim Les.

The challenge for these new coaches typically comes later.  We'll see what happens with Buzz.

Then the Crean apologists said well Buzz cannot repeat it Crean could only signe classes when he had tons of playing time to give out ( ie the two good classes he signed)  then Buzz follows it with arguably an even better class.    

I don't think we can conclude Buzz has recruited better yet.   The result will be in the W/L record this year and the next several seasons.

Right now he has a whole lot of incompletes/withdrawls/failures.

Clearly he's missed on Clark, Bowen, Roseboro, Maymon, etc.  

And I think his promising players who have been injured have got to live up to their expectations before his recruiting can truly be considered great.  After all, you're using 20/20 hindsight on Crean's recruits.  

Will Cadougan surpass Diener or James?  

Will Blue surpass Wade or McNeal?  

Will Jones surpass Matthews?  

Will Mbao surpass Kinsella?  Burke?  Barro?  Merritt?  Jackson?  

Will they collectively be better than 4th place in the Big East?  Will collectively they ever reach a final four?

We don't know.

Addiotnally, Crean cant get bigs becuase bigs dont want to go to Mu.  Then Buzz signs two 7 footers and a 6'10 guy in 18 months.  I mean i dont want you to have to say anything bad but I mean good golly look at the entire laundry list of Crean recruits and how many of them were really high major players?

You forgot the verbal from another 6'10" guy.  Bit of a risk character-wise and will never enroll at MU.  But he got the verbal.

So Buzz's track record on recruiting bigs is this:  Clark, Roseboro and McMorrow will never play a game for MU.  Mbao  a MAJOR project.

Now, to be fair, Buzz deserves a pass for some bad luck and injuries, which I'm willing to grant.  You don't give Crean a pass for similar bad luck or injury.

And i dont want to hurt your feelings but look at what Buzz has done with absolutely no rep  and Crean was great at making excuses but Buzz has flat out got it done on the recruitng trail.  Do you think Buzz would have signed Brandon bell, carlton christian, James Matthews Jamil Lott & mike Kinsella after going to a Final 4?

Well he signed Brett Roseboro with a ton of minutes to hand out, so I would say anything is possible.  

Seriously, I don't know.  

First off, Buzz hasn't made it to a final four yet.  More importantly, he hasn't had to whether the rumors of "Buzz to . . . " whatever high-profile opening is around that year.  He hasn't had to recruit yet agianst Bo Ryan telling recruits that Buzz won't be at MU when they graduate (or even when they enroll).

We'll see what happens if and when that occurs.

[madtownwarrior]

nice - a JP Tokoto thread turns into a Crean vs Buzz pissing match, gotta love this board...

[Hards Alumni]

lol welcome to MUScoop.