Do coaches really make NBA players

[bilsu]

You here it all the time in recruiting. Perfect example is Rick Pitino telling recruits that his NBA connections will help them get to the NBA. Or of course our style of ball is better for you getting to the NBA. Or Crean claiming he will make you the next D. Wade. Personally, I believe that Wade would have been a pro no matter where he went. I am sure Crean helped him with his development, but I also think most coaches would have. The harder ones are Diener and Novak, because they really do not have NBA athleticism. Is the fact they made it attributable to Crean or does it have to do with the fact both are coaches sons. Novak knew how to shoot before he came to MU. Diener was very solid and had a high basketball IQ before he got here. Tucker and Harris both have NBA quickness and I am sure Bo helped them in their development, but I think any other coach would have also. A player generally makes it, because he has the size, athletic ability and dedication to make it. That is why the NBA consistantly drafts underclassmen. Chances are if you are playing your senior year in college you are not NBA material. Do you think the coach really makes a difference?

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

I sure don't think so. Did Ray Meyer make Aguirre and Cummings NBA players? How about Jim Boeheim? Did he make Carmelo an NBA player? Or Derrick Coleman? Did LeBron James' high school coach make him an NBA player? How about Dale Brown and Shaquille O'Neal? Did Scottie Pippen's coach at Central Arkansas make him an NBA player? The list goes on and on.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I don't think necessarily it's all about making them better skilled players, although that's a big part of it.  Where I believe coaches help the most is pushing them to be their best.  There are a ton of players out there that have talent but won't work at it.  Some are self-made and will work on their own, while others need to have their butts kicked every day to have a chance.

[4everwarriors]

Wait, I thought it is common knowledge that Diener and Novak are in the NBA because Crean used his "connections" to get them drafted. Furthermore, DJ and McNeal got screwed when Crean bolted or they'd be in the Association also.

[MR.HAYWARD]

if one simply looked at where Novak and diener were rated coming out of HS by the scouts they were border line draft picks anyway.  Take out the kids that flake out thrown in some tougnes, intelligence and a tremendous work ethic and they are going to be borderline NBA 'ers and pro ball players somehwere.  Guys i hate to tell you but coaching is not rocket science and BBAll is a simply game.  A good coach builds chemistry, gets his kids to bust there buts to get better and surrounds himself with talented high character players.  there are alot of great HS , DII and NAIA coaches out there that simply never got or wanted the opportunity to coach at the D1 level.  Homer Drew is a good example he was hall of famer with multiple national titles before he ever coached his first d1 game, hell bo ryan is another example.  roy williams is not the best coach in colleg ball he just has the best players, not saying he is not a great coach just saying his teams are not sooo great becuase of him.  Tom Crean thinks he is a great coach but great coaches realize they are no better than someone else they just got a great opportunity and did not mess it up.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

if one simply looked at where Novak and diener were rated coming out of HS by the scouts they were border line draft picks anyway. 

They were? How many guys get drafted every year? 60?

How many guys out of Novak's grade were eventually drafted? How about Diener's class?

[77ncaachamps]

NBA talent is NBA talent.
Development happens but not without the RAW talent.

To play at higher levels, you need to have (besides the talent):
- recognition of your ability/talent
- willingness to work at getting better
- ability to adapt
- character and maturity
- intellect to understand situations and "the game"
- opportunity
- experience

Coaching just hones the above...

[bilsu]

NBA talent is NBA talent.
Development happens but not without the RAW talent.

To play at higher levels, you need to have (besides the talent):
- recognition of your ability/talent
- willingness to work at getting better
- ability to adapt
- character and maturity
- intellect to understand situations and "the game"
- opportunity
- experience

Coaching just hones the above...

I agree with your statement that coaching hones the above. However, does it really matter who the coach is at mid-major and up school?

[ChicosBailBonds]

if one simply looked at where Novak and diener were rated coming out of HS by the scouts they were border line draft picks anyway.  Take out the kids that flake out thrown in some tougnes, intelligence and a tremendous work ethic and they are going to be borderline NBA 'ers and pro ball players somehwere.  Guys i hate to tell you but coaching is not rocket science and BBAll is a simply game.  A good coach builds chemistry, gets his kids to bust there buts to get better and surrounds himself with talented high character players.  there are alot of great HS , DII and NAIA coaches out there that simply never got or wanted the opportunity to coach at the D1 level.  Homer Drew is a good example he was hall of famer with multiple national titles before he ever coached his first d1 game, hell bo ryan is another example.  roy williams is not the best coach in colleg ball he just has the best players, not saying he is not a great coach just saying his teams are not sooo great becuase of him.  Tom Crean thinks he is a great coach but great coaches realize they are no better than someone else they just got a great opportunity and did not mess it up.

Diener and Novak were on ZERO, NADA, NONE draft boards after their JUNIOR YEAR OF COLLEGE and you're telling us after their high school career they were border line picks for the NBA?  What do you think, there are 10 rounds in the draft still like 30 years ago?

[ChicosBailBonds]

I agree with your statement that coaching hones the above. However, does it really matter who the coach is at mid-major and up school?

Yes, it matters to some degree.  Would you want a border line kid to play for Ric Cobb or Pat Kennedy, etc, etc?

There are a lot of DI mid major or even high major coaches over the years where their players didn't seem to get much better.  Fortunately for MU, most of our players over the years have been better their senior year than earlier years (not all of them, but most).

[77ncaachamps]

I agree with your statement that coaching hones the above. However, does it really matter who the coach is at mid-major and up school?

In a way, yes.

The coach must be able to recognize the talent and create game plays to showcase the talent.
Furthermore, recruit and build a supporting cast.

I'm not sure if development truly occurs until the NBA (or higher professional level) when the player's ceiling is finally tested against the creme de la creme.

[77ncaachamps]

Another absolutely clueless statement.

Diener and Novak were on ZERO, NADA, NONE draft boards after their JUNIOR YEAR OF COLLEGE and you're telling us after their high school career they were border line picks for the NBA?  What do you think, there are 10 rounds in the draft still like 30 years ago?

Jesus H Christ, do you know a damn thing about hoops?  Seriously?   Good grief.

Wondering how this translates to the drafting of Bryce Drew.

He was not high on draft boards either but after a spectacular season and amazing post-season, he was drafted - in the first round nonetheless.

[Skatastrophy]

With regards to my career:  contacts often supersede skill. 

To state the obvious: While elite skills will show whether you're playing for a mid-major or an elite program (as long as you make some noise in the NCAA tourney), serviceable talent will be well served by any coach with NBA contacts. 

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Yes, it matters to some degree.  Would you want a border line kid to play for Ric Cobb or Pat Kennedy, etc, etc?

I believe Pat Kennedy had several NBA players.

[bilsu]

I believe the style that show cases a players talents can make the player better known. However, a lot of players who do not get drafted get invited to an NBA camp. As far as mid-majors, most of the players that end up there are there because they were not considered talented enough to play for the major schools. Given that you are not going to see many mid-major coaches who get their players to the pros. That is not the coaches fault. On the flip side you will see a lot of NBA players from North Carolina. However, most of North Carolina's players are top 25 players coming out of high school. Does North Carolina's Coach Williams help them be NBA players? Yes, but I suspect that if those same players decided to play for Jeter at UWM, they would still become pros. Let narrow this down. Do you really believe Blue has a better or worse chance  at making the NBA because he chose MU or UW? Basically, I think the pissing match about which school is better for getting a player in the pros is a lot of hot air about nothing. The player is going to be developed where ever he goes. It still comes down to talent and hard work. Buzz's and Bo's approach might be different, but if the player is not working hard he is not going to play for either coach.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I believe Pat Kennedy had several NBA players.

Correct but also several high high recruits that totally busted out, didn't develop at all, weren't motivated, etc.

That's part of what a coach does, get them ready for the NBA.

[MR.HAYWARD]

They were? How many guys get drafted every year? 60?

How many guys out of Novak's grade were eventually drafted? How about Diener's class?

yes 60 guys get drafted each year and Novak and Diener were rated around 50-70 coming out of HS therefore if they basically manintained there ranking amongst their age group in 4 years thay maintain being about the late second rounders they were. 

Simply saying its not like they were developmentally diabsle running around dribbling with two hands and their heads down before they et Tommy naismith.  And as other posters have alluded most kids that are going to be pros everyone knows it by about 6th or 7th grade.  many times earlier.  I have worked with kids in AAu that work out 4-5-6 days a week thousands of shots a week hours of training ball handling lifting etc, and they simply cannot wish to do things that the true studs can do walking in the gym picking up aball and ready to light everyone else up.  Those kids are great from day 1,   Al mcguire referred to them as "cradles".  Great with god given ability from the cradle

the question is how tough mentally are they as they move up and all the other kids are on the same plane or at least much closer to them.  i have seen it 100X now a kid has to break sweat to score 30, now he runs into someone who can stay in front of him and is plain nasty.  How does he handle that?  soem becoem recommited becuase they have to be the best  travis diener.  Some get frustrated and to an extent quit.  Bernard toone.

you see it happen in Junior high, HS, colleg, and the pros.  when does that "reat player" meet his match and how does he handle it?

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

yes 60 guys get drafted each year and Novak and Diener were rated around 50-70 coming out of HS therefore if they basically manintained there ranking amongst their age group in 4 years thay maintain being about the late second rounders they were. 

Your math is wrong, and it's distorting your opinion.

http://www.draftexpress.com/RSCI/2001/

If you look at draft express, only 28 guys were drafted in Travis' class and 31 in Steve's. In any given year it looks like 25-35 guys are drafted (sometimes less).

Your statement above (IN RED) is actually very wrong. 

They needed to improve their stock quite a bit in order to get drafted.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Your math is wrong, and it's distorting your opinion.

http://www.draftexpress.com/RSCI/2001/

If you look at draft express, only 28 guys were drafted in Travis' class and 31 in Steve's. In any given year it looks like 25-35 guys are drafted (sometimes less).

Your statement above (IN RED) is actually very wrong.  

They needed to improve their stock quite a bit in order to get drafted.

His math is wrong, his logic is wrong, his spelling & grammar, etc, etc.   To even remotely suggest a rated 50 to 70 kid out of high school is borderline a NBA player is lunatic fringe territory.   It doesn't factor in European players that take up a crap load of spots, plus underclassmen, plus that really pesky detail that these ratings of recruits are all evaluations that aren't based on any reality.  Plenty of top 100 (even top 50) kids totally bust because they are over valued, played against crap high school competition, etc, etc.  Just a ridiculous statement by Hayward...if he said top 10 high school rated kids are borderline NBA players, that's one thing (even then, top 10 kids like Brian Butch bust out) but 50 - 70....laughable.  Way too many things need to happen for a kid to make the NBA and that borderline has to be extremely long to suggest players 50 - 70 out of high school are in it. 

Look at how many All Conference players from major conferences don't even make it, let alone kids out of high school

[77ncaachamps]

I believe the style that show cases a players talents can make the player better known. However, a lot of players who do not get drafted get invited to an NBA camp. As far as mid-majors, most of the players that end up there are there because they were not considered talented enough to play for the major schools. Given that you are not going to see many mid-major coaches who get their players to the pros. That is not the coaches fault. On the flip side you will see a lot of NBA players from North Carolina. However, most of North Carolina's players are top 25 players coming out of high school. Does North Carolina's Coach Williams help them be NBA players? Yes, but I suspect that if those same players decided to play for Jeter at UWM, they would still become pros. Let narrow this down. Do you really believe Blue has a better or worse chance  at making the NBA because he chose MU or UW? Basically, I think the pissing match about which school is better for getting a player in the pros is a lot of hot air about nothing. The player is going to be developed where ever he goes. It still comes down to talent and hard work. Buzz's and Bo's approach might be different, but if the player is not working hard he is not going to play for either coach.

As it pertains to MU or UW, this is true. Though I still say MU.

But doesn't apply to the Dukes, UNCs, UCLAs, UCONNS, etc. because they ALWAYS get First-Rate talent.

And Vander, if the recruiting gurus are correct, IS First-Rate talent.

[Murffieus]

Coach doesn't "make" an NBA player, but he certainly can enable that persons chances of playing in the NBA
by stressing fundamentals both offense & defense----by building mental toughness and attitude ----- and by teaching certain skills germane to the position a player plays. e.g. postup moves to #5s, wide post moves to power forwards, how options develop off reading the defense, etc