Nova game thread (cubed)

[Charlotte Warrior]

I wouldn't call failing to get past the second round with a team featuring two NBA players and the school's all-time leading scorer as upperclassmen = exceeding expectations, but that's just me.
Same for a team featuring three future NBA players as upperclassmen (including two first-round picks) losing to an 11 seed in the first round.
Really, the only Buzz team that arguably overachieved was his one that made the Elite 8.
I mean, is getting to a Sweet 16 with five guys who've played in the NBA (Jimmy Butler, Jae Crowder, Jamil Wilson, DJO and Vander Blue) really an overachievement? Or is the fact they were an 11 seed show they underachieved much of the season?

I like Buzz and think he did awesome things at Marquette, but let's not spin tales of legend about him.

I though we were comparing to preseason expectations.   Lets take a look at that

Year                  Preseason Rank              Conf Rank
2008-09                         6th                             5th
2009-10                        10th                             5th
2010-11                          T8th                            9th
2011-12                           6th                            1st
2012-13                          7th                              1st
2013-14                          7th                              6th

I dunno, I think that's exceeding, even thou I'll admit 13-14 was disappointing.   You think Wojo's delivered in line with this?   Look at the reviews Butler was getting his first year here, people where clamoring he was never gonna be any good.   I believe that many successful  BB players are made through hard work and coaching, but thats just me.   

[skianth16]

I know I will get shredded for this, but none of those team outside Villanova was really a top 15 team, though they were ranked that way at the time.   None of them ended up in the top 25.

i think I had a hard time remembering which top teams we had beaten under Wojo for that reason. They were highly ranked when we beat them, but they struggled a little in conference play and ended the season being good but not great teams. I'm sure Buzz had a few of those kinds of wins too. And there's a chance both coaches had some wins over teams that finished their season in the top 15 even if they weren't ranked there when we beat them. I'd assume it mostly evens out for the rankings. Top 15 is a kind of arbitrary bar to set anyway.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I though we were comparing to preseason expectations.   Lets take a look at that

Year                  Preseason Rank              Conf Rank
2008-09                         6th                             5th
2009-10                        10th                             5th
2010-11                          T8th                            9th
2011-12                           6th                            1st
2012-13                          7th                              1st
2013-14                          7th                              6th

I dunno, I think that's exceeding, even thou I'll admit 13-14 was disappointing.   You think Wojo's delivered in line with this?   Look at the reviews Butler was getting his first year here, people where clamoring he was never gonna be any good.   I believe that many successful  BB players are made through hard work and coaching, but thats just me.   

Where are you getting this data?  I might be misremembering but didn't we start 13-14 ranked? I would be surprised if that meant we were projected 7th out of 10.

[Silkk the Shaka]

Where are you getting this data?  I might be misremembering but didn't we start 13-14 ranked? I would be surprised if that meant we were projected 7th out of 10.

Agree, I remember a top 3 projection for '13/14

[Pakuni]

Where are you getting this data?  I might be misremembering but didn't we start 13-14 ranked? I would be surprised if that meant we were projected 7th out of 10.

Yeah, according to Wiki at least, Marquette was predicted to win the conference in 2013-14.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013%E2%80%9314_Big_East_Conference_men%27s_basketball_season

[Charlotte Warrior]

Where are you getting this data?  I might be misremembering but didn't we start 13-14 ranked? I would be surprised if that meant we were projected 7th out of 10.

My bad, I pulled up old articles but the link I used for 2013-14 went to the 2017 preseason poll and I didn't notice that.   Your right, in 13-14 we were preseason #1.   However, my point being, over 6 years I'll take one underachieve versus 4 overachieve and one match - and we were probably over ranked in 13-14 because of the prior 5 seasons worth of results.

[BM1090]

I though we were comparing to preseason expectations.   Lets take a look at that

Year                  Preseason Rank              Conf Rank
2008-09                         6th                             5th
2009-10                        10th                             5th
2010-11                          T8th                            9th
2011-12                           6th                            1st
2012-13                          7th                              1st
2013-14                          7th                              6th

I dunno, I think that's exceeding, even thou I'll admit 13-14 was disappointing.   You think Wojo's delivered in line with this?   Look at the reviews Butler was getting his first year here, people where clamoring he was never gonna be any good.   I believe that many successful  BB players are made through hard work and coaching, but thats just me.   

We won two Big East titles?

(Your 11-12 numbers are wrong)

[Dr. Blackheart]

We won two Big East titles?

(Your 11-12 numbers are wrong)

Syracuse vacated their wins.

[forgetful]

I though we were comparing to preseason expectations.   Lets take a look at that

Year                  Preseason Rank              Conf Rank
2008-09                         6th                             5th
2009-10                        10th                             5th
2010-11                          T8th                            9th
2011-12                           6th                            1st
2012-13                          7th                              1st
2013-14                          7th                              6th

I dunno, I think that's exceeding, even thou I'll admit 13-14 was disappointing.   You think Wojo's delivered in line with this?   Look at the reviews Butler was getting his first year here, people where clamoring he was never gonna be any good.   I believe that many successful  BB players are made through hard work and coaching, but thats just me.   

These types of things are dumb.  We were expected to be 7th this year, we finished 7th, but if we won against Depaul we would have been 3rd.  So one loss is the difference between being "at" expectations, and vastly exceeding it. 

When the middle of the conference is so bunched up meeting/exceeding expectations based on conference finish is meaningless.

Also comparing Buzz (inherited the 3 Amigos; and had been recruiting to Marquette already as an assistant) to Wojo (inherited a stinking pile of horse dung; and was brand new to the program) in their first couple years is stupid. 

Even then, we placed 11th in 2010-11 not 9th.

You can't throw out teams that vacate wins in the final standings, but keep them in the preseason rankings.  That is biased.

And as others noted, we were predicted to win in 2013-14 and finished 6th.   

[Dr. Blackheart]

These types of things are dumb.  We were expected to be 7th this year, we finished 7th, but if we won against Depaul we would have been 3rd.  So one loss is the difference between being "at" expectations, and vastly exceeding it. 

When the middle of the conference is so bunched up meeting/exceeding expectations based on conference finish is meaningless.

Also comparing Buzz (inherited the 3 Amigos; and had been recruiting to Marquette already as an assistant) to Wojo (inherited a stinking pile of horse dung; and was brand new to the program) in their first couple years is stupid. 

Even then, we placed 11th in 2010-11 not 9th.

You can't throw out teams that vacate wins in the final standings, but keep them in the preseason rankings.  That is biased.

And as others noted, we were predicted to win in 2013-14 and finished 6th.

Well if you toss out losses to teams who cheated, MU finished 2nd.  Honest question, what objective measure would you grade Wojo on?  Personally?  And as a program?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Well if you toss out losses to teams who cheated, MU finished 2nd.  Honest question, what objective measure would you grade Wojo on?  Personally?  And as a program?

I tend to use NCAA seeds and Kenpom rankings. Generally, I think these are two of the more consistent measures in evaluating a coach.

[forgetful]

Well if you toss out losses to teams who cheated, MU finished 2nd.  Honest question, what objective measure would you grade Wojo on?  Personally?  And as a program?

Tournament appearances and seed. 

In my opinion, given what Wojo inherited, he outperformed expectations the last 3 years, and was at expectations this year. 

We are comparing two coaches here, where 1 inherited a team with the 3-Amigos and Lazar Hayward, and the other inherited a steaming pile of horse crap. 

Stupid comparisons.  Wojo needs to be in the NCAA's next year.  He does that he is performing well. 

[Dr. Blackheart]

Tournament appearances and seed. 

In my opinion, given what Wojo inherited, he outperformed expectations the last 3 years, and was at expectations this year. 

We are comparing two coaches here, where 1 inherited a team with the 3-Amigos and Lazar Hayward, and the other inherited a steaming pile of horse crap. 

Stupid comparisons.  Wojo needs to be in the NCAA's next year.  He does that he is performing well.

I think this pretty much explains the divide on this board.  For example, my personal expectation before the season was 8-10 and 7th, hoping for a NIT bid. After Maui, I thought we could go higher and make the NCAAs. That's the rational side of my brain.

As a program, one where our AD is benchmarking new arena prices to programs like UNC and Duke, I expect more. This is where the emotional arguments of posters like Guru and Goose come in. It is more subjective, and it's not really fair to call it stupid.

All Scoop posters are invested, but there is a large majority who don't come here or come in occasionally. They are not as rational but also represent the vast majority of the STH base.

To me, Wojo passes the rational side even as I look at what he has coming in, but the program side is a big IF. Next season will be a very wild ride.