Florida Gulf Coast

[wadesworld]

For those of you who are complaining about our non-conference schedule PLEASE go through the Top 25 team's schedules.  I just did it and we have a very similar schedule to most of them.  The only teams with clearly tougher non-conference schedules are Memphis (because they have NOBODY in their conference schedule to play so they need it for their SOS), UCLA, Michigan State, Texas, Duke, and USC.  We have a clearly tougher non-conference schedule than Washington State, Pitt, Texas A&M, Vanderbilt, Butler, Villanova, Miami, Ole Miss, West Virginia, and Rhode Island.  Most teams that are expected to do well in the pre-season aren't going to schedule a bunch of games against ranked opponents.  They will play in one tournament, possibly a conference challenge, and then one game against a ranked opponent.  Why risk taking a bunch of losses in non-conference when you're already ranked high so you don't have to beat good teams to move up and when you have a chance to lose a handful of games in the conference?

And how can people rip on Marquette for having a strong schedule only because they didn't have control over the part of the schedule that makes it strong?  You don't think we knew we'd have a tough schedule before we made our non-conference schedule?  We need some easy wins because once the Big East starts there aren't going to be many easy wins, they'll all have to be earned.  I bet if you switch Memphis and us (we're back in CUSA and they're in the BE) we have a very hard non-conference schedule and theirs is weak.  And then we'd have posters on here crying about getting out of CUSA because there are no good teams to play and ripping the non-conference schedule because we'd have to have a tough non-conference schedule to get our SOS up so we had no choice.  All this complaining is getting old...our SOS at the end of the year will be very good, and it doesn't matter whether it's a result of the part of the schedule that was given to us or the part of the schedule we got to make...it's going to be strong regardless.

[The Lens]

We finished in 4th place in a 16 team league with a 10-6 record in a conf that is considered one of the best...we got an 8 seed.  Somehow I don't think this whole schedule thing has been mastered yet.

[ChicosBailBonds]

We finished in 4th place in a 16 team league with a 10-6 record in a conf that is considered one of the best...we got an 8 seed.  Somehow I don't think this whole schedule thing has been mastered yet.

The injury to Mcneal probably didn't help either in the seeding.

[ChicosBailBonds]

What is the source of this $200K for Williams?  Just curious.

Then again, he did leave a head coaching job to become an assistant coach.

It's amazing to me that we still have posters on this board that b i t c h about this program considering where we are.  Truly amazing.  Kids graduating, no NCAA issues, highly successful team, a coach that WANTS to be here (unlike the 4 previous ones), stability for the first time in 30 years.

Why are some people so damn angry all the time about MU....for some the more successful we are, the more angrier they get.  I get it, some of you don't like Crean.  That's fine...some didn't like Deane...some didn't like KO...that's the way it goes.

[Pakuni]

We finished in 4th place in a 16 team league with a 10-6 record in a conf that is considered one of the best...we got an 8 seed.  Somehow I don't think this whole schedule thing has been mastered yet.

Fourth place would have been nice. Reality was sixth place.
And MU's 8th seed had as much, or more, to do with the record in their last 10 games (5-5) and uncertainty over McNeal's injury as it did with the non-conference schedule.

At season's end, MU's non-conference SOS was 98th, better than  ...

#1 seed Florida (159th)
#1 seed Kansas (114th)
#2 seed Georgetown (129th)
#3 seed Texas A&M (141st)
#3 seed Washington St. (310th!!!)
#3 seed Oregon (233rd!!!)
#4 seed Texas (183rd)
#4 seed Virginia (175th)
#5 seed USC (181st)
#6 seed Vanderbilt (130th)
#6 seed Notre Dame (309th!!!)
#6 seed Louisville (145th)
#7 seed Nevada (100th)
#7 seed Indiana (149th)
http://kenpom.com/rpi.php?y=2007

So, exactly half the teams seeded ahead of Marquette had weaker - in some cases significatly weaker - out-of-conference schedules. Clearly when it comes to seeding this non-conference SOS stuff isn't nearly as important as some of you, along with the tournament committee, want us to believe.
But any excuse to gripe, I suppose ...

[Pakuni]

What is the source of this $200K for Williams?  Just curious.

http://www.nola.com/uno/t-p/index.ssf?/base/sports-0/118378612959750.xml&coll=1&thispage=2

[ecompt]

All the MU coaches are vastly overpaid.  ???Fire the lot and bring in Billy Gillespie at double TC's contract and watch the team go .500 with a slew of McDonald's All-Americans. We could go 35-0 and win the NCAA title and some people are going to dump on the coaches. It is simply unbelievable. Virtually everyone in the free world agrees that Crean is one of the best coaches around. I guess that's just not enough.

[Pakuni]

Oops. Never mind.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

ecompt --
I question our reasons for a shoddy non-conference schedule and Marquette84's opinion that FGC is a decent opponent and you start defending Crean's contract? What!?

Where in this thread did anybody mention Crean's contract?

You are a perfect example of the kind of poster who argues against a non-existent point of view. Classic.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

PRN, do you have a problem? Seriously? You must have some sort of problem in your life where you take your anger out on this message board.  Every single post you write is pessimistic and you complain about something.  If Marquette beat Pittsburgh by 35, you would find something to complain about. Tom Crean's hair, his use of timeouts, etc. etc.  Your act is getting old.  I think everyone on this board sees that you usually have nothing good to say. Every time i see that you posted something, I just skip over it now, because it is ridiculous content. What is your problem? Did you get cut from the basketball team in high school? Grade school? Do you not have any friends? IDK. Are you even a Marquette fan? I don't know, hopefully! Make it your New Years resolution to not complain about every god damn thing that has to do with Marquette basketball or Tom Crean.

How do you know my posts contain "ridiculous content" if you don't read them?

[ChicosBailBonds]

What is the source of this $200K for Williams?  Just curious.

http://www.nola.com/uno/t-p/index.ssf?/base/sports-0/118378612959750.xml&coll=1&thispage=2

Thanks.  I guess some people think he left a head coaching gig to become an assistant coach and it's only the money that made him do it.  At least that's how I read some of the posts here. 

To each his own.   Happy New Year everyone.

[ecompt]

I believe the assistant coach's pay was mentioned BY YOU in the thread, and then it led to the point that MU spends too much on that and not enough on bringing in the kinds of opponents PRN wants (North Carolina, Florida, the Spurs). You mention "non-existent budget problems." I presume you know this for a fact, that MU could schedule fewer home games (and find only high-quality opponents) and still make the money needed to support the ENTIRE athletic department.
We now play 18 Big East games; that leaves nine non-conference games. We play UW and UWM the next few years. That leaves seven non-con. games. I know you would like us to schedule more heavyweights, but all of them would want return games (some 2 for 1). If we played Detroit and Loyola instead of Savannah State and Florida Coast, would THAT make you happy? All I know is that our HOME conference schedule is as good as anyone's in the country.    

[Coobeys Oil Depot]

$200K for Williams?? Williams, a coach who landed a blue chip prospect out of Texas in less then two months on the job??

Seems underpaid to me.

[Marquette84]

All I did was say they aren't as terrible as people thought intially, based on the fact that THEY ACTUALLY HELD A RANKED TEAM TO A TWELVE POINT GAME!!  They came closer to beating Butler than Michigan or Ohio State did!ecompt --
I question our reasons for a shoddy non-conference schedule and Marquette84's opinion that FGC is a decent opponent and you start defending Crean's contract? What!?

Where in this thread did anybody mention Crean's contract?

You are a perfect example of the kind of poster who argues against a non-existent point of view. Classic.

Pot, meet Kettle.

Where in this thread did I say that FGC was a decent opponent?  

Don't bother looking--I never said it.  You made it up, in order to argue against it.

YOU, PRN, are EXACTLY the same--YOU invent statements to argue against as well.

As you say, Classic.

For the record, this was my exact quote:  "I think the appropriate scouting is that FGC is certainly not a great team, but they're not as terrible as people initially thought, either. As they showed against Butler, if you let your guard down they are capable of holding a highly regarded team close."

I didn't think that this was a terribly controversial statement.  It is certainly consistent with fact.  For some reason, FGC played Butler closer than Ohio State and Michigan did.  That means one of two things--either FGC is actually better than Ohio State or Michigan.  Or Butler took FGC lightly, and FGC had enough talent to put a scare into a ranked team.  I'm going with the latter.

Seems to me that Utah Valley State did the same thing to MU earlier this season.  ND State did even worse to MU last season.  Maine did it to us in the 90's.  ECU did it to us in 2003.  

So, PRN, where on earth do you get off on suggesting that I'm wrong becasue I say we should not take FGC lightly?   It seemed rather obvious to me when a team doesn't take a lightly-regarded opponent seriously, like say, Gardner-Webb or Mercer, even a team like Kentucky or USC can lose.

If PRN, you want to argue that we should still take FCG lightly because it fits with your pre-conceived notion that they're a terrible team, then have at it.  You make the case that MU should take them lightly.  That they're not possibly good enough to put a scare into a ranked team.



But stop using every post I make as an excuse to launch into some personal attack or tired criticism.  

[augoman]

which is the 'blue-chip' prospect?  or, are you referring to the consolation recruits.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

All I did was say they aren't as terrible as people thought intially, based on the fact that THEY ACTUALLY HELD A RANKED TEAM TO A TWELVE POINT GAME!!  They came closer to beating Butler than Michigan or Ohio State did!ecompt --
I question our reasons for a shoddy non-conference schedule and Marquette84's opinion that FGC is a decent opponent and you start defending Crean's contract? What!?

Where in this thread did anybody mention Crean's contract?

You are a perfect example of the kind of poster who argues against a non-existent point of view. Classic.

Pot, meet Kettle.

Where in this thread did I say that FGC was a decent opponent?  

Don't bother looking--I never said it.  You made it up, in order to argue against it.

YOU, PRN, are EXACTLY the same--YOU invent statements to argue against as well.

As you say, Classic.

For the record, this was my exact quote:  "I think the appropriate scouting is that FGC is certainly not a great team, but they're not as terrible as people initially thought, either. As they showed against Butler, if you let your guard down they are capable of holding a highly regarded team close."

I didn't think that this was a terribly controversial statement.  It is certainly consistent with fact.  For some reason, FGC played Butler closer than Ohio State and Michigan did.  That means one of two things--either FGC is actually better than Ohio State or Michigan.  Or Butler took FGC lightly, and FGC had enough talent to put a scare into a ranked team.  I'm going with the latter.

Seems to me that Utah Valley State did the same thing to MU earlier this season.  ND State did even worse to MU last season.  Maine did it to us in the 90's.  ECU did it to us in 2003.  

So, PRN, where on earth do you get off on suggesting that I'm wrong becasue I say we should not take FGC lightly?   It seemed rather obvious to me when a team doesn't take a lightly-regarded opponent seriously, like say, Gardner-Webb or Mercer, even a team like Kentucky or USC can lose.

If PRN, you want to argue that we should still take FCG lightly because it fits with your pre-conceived notion that they're a terrible team, then have at it.  You make the case that MU should take them lightly.  That they're not possibly good enough to put a scare into a ranked team.



But stop using every post I make as an excuse to launch into some personal attack or tired criticism.  

I will leave the personal attacks and name calling to you.

[ecompt]

Consolation recruits? I would hardly call a Top-25 recruiting class consolation. So we lost out on a kid to Georgia Tech, where he'll spend one year? Otule, Tyshawn Taylor and Nick Williams are pretty good "consolations."

[Marquette84]

All I did was say they aren't as terrible as people thought intially, based on the fact that THEY ACTUALLY HELD A RANKED TEAM TO A TWELVE POINT GAME!!  They came closer to beating Butler than Michigan or Ohio State did!ecompt --
I question our reasons for a shoddy non-conference schedule and Marquette84's opinion that FGC is a decent opponent and you start defending Crean's contract? What!?

Where in this thread did anybody mention Crean's contract?

You are a perfect example of the kind of poster who argues against a non-existent point of view. Classic.

Pot, meet Kettle.

Where in this thread did I say that FGC was a decent opponent?  

Don't bother looking--I never said it.  You made it up, in order to argue against it.

YOU, PRN, are EXACTLY the same--YOU invent statements to argue against as well.

As you say, Classic.

For the record, this was my exact quote:  "I think the appropriate scouting is that FGC is certainly not a great team, but they're not as terrible as people initially thought, either. As they showed against Butler, if you let your guard down they are capable of holding a highly regarded team close."

I didn't think that this was a terribly controversial statement.  It is certainly consistent with fact.  For some reason, FGC played Butler closer than Ohio State and Michigan did.  That means one of two things--either FGC is actually better than Ohio State or Michigan.  Or Butler took FGC lightly, and FGC had enough talent to put a scare into a ranked team.  I'm going with the latter.

Seems to me that Utah Valley State did the same thing to MU earlier this season.  ND State did even worse to MU last season.  Maine did it to us in the 90's.  ECU did it to us in 2003.  

So, PRN, where on earth do you get off on suggesting that I'm wrong becasue I say we should not take FGC lightly?   It seemed rather obvious to me when a team doesn't take a lightly-regarded opponent seriously, like say, Gardner-Webb or Mercer, even a team like Kentucky or USC can lose.

If PRN, you want to argue that we should still take FCG lightly because it fits with your pre-conceived notion that they're a terrible team, then have at it.  You make the case that MU should take them lightly.  That they're not possibly good enough to put a scare into a ranked team.



But stop using every post I make as an excuse to launch into some personal attack or tired criticism.  

I will leave the personal attacks and name calling to you.

For the future, the appropriate response in a case like this would be:

"You're right--I made up that statement to suit my own purpose, and you caught me red handed.  What can I say? You're right and I didn't want to admit it!"

Bottom line, you're so invested in your own negative thinking that you can't bring yourself to admit that my point was right on.

[Coobeys Oil Depot]

which is the 'blue-chip' prospect?  or, are you referring to the consolation recruits.

Ironically, Dominic James and Jerel McNeal were both called consolation recruits because James committed after Frasor committed to UNC and MU beat out Dayton for McNeal's commitment. That worked out pretty okay.

ecompt touches on the 2008 class which I'm sure you are refering to when using consolation recruits to describe them. I'm not truly sure why but the class is getting ranked fairly highly. I do know that Williams and Taylor will be very good players for MU.

The prospect I was talking about was Erik Williams whom by all accounts is expected to progress very well playing the highest level of high school ball in Texas.

[chapman]

Some thoughts about the topics brought up...

I liked the analysis of the overall home schedule, not just the non-conference portion.  Considering we play two more Big East games this year, that's an extra conference game at home.  Even adding a mid to lower tier team like Rutgers or Seton Hall to the schedule is a better replacement than playing another random cupcake.  It also adds to the overall strength-would you rather schedule a cupcake on the road as part of a 4-for-1 contract or just travel to the Garden to take on St. John's?  St. John's is not a good team, but the name and conference affiliation help us much more.

Still, while it has been mentioned that most schools play non-conference schedules like ours, why can't we differentiate ourselves a little bit?  I'm glad we don't play Miami's joke of a non-conference schedule, but it certainly wouldn't hurt to schedule a 2-for-1 with an MVC or CUSA team or a home-and-home with a Big 12 team.  Is the revenue hit really that big between finding a different cupcake and paying them to come play us three years in a row in front of a half-full BC versus playing two home games and a road game against a respectable opponent, generating some interest (and extra revenue), creating a mini-rivalry, or playing a major-conference opponent and possibly getting television revenue?

I found the Buzz Williams salary thing interesting.  I had no idea he was making that much, or if $200k is enough to keep the guy from bolting for the next head-coaching job that calls, but it seems like he's doing a lot for us so far.  I think his recruiting impact is undeniable, and we should at least wait to see the results of his recruiting before judging our overall investment in him.  Erik Williams, Chris Otule, and Joseph Fulce seem like obvious results of having Coach Williams on the staff, and Scout.com also lists him as the primary recruiter of Tyshawn Taylor.

I know it's not this black-and-white, but I'll take the recruiting upgrade versus falling back on a JUCO player in May whose only other option is playing for a cupcake school if it means playing another cupcake.

[spiral97]

PRN/84 - if you guys feel the need to hijack the thread into debate about personal attacks, name calling, etc. might I direct you to your own PM boxes?  Better yet, just exchange e-mail addresses and go that route.  I know I don't want to read any more about it and doubt most people here do.  So move along unless you have something relevant to say on THIS topic.

[Marquette84]

But it certainly wouldn't hurt to schedule a 2-for-1 with an MVC or CUSA team or a home-and-home with a Big 12 team.  Is the revenue hit really that big between finding a different cupcake and paying them to come play us three years in a row in front of a half-full BC versus playing two home games and a road game against a respectable opponent, generating some interest (and extra revenue), creating a mini-rivalry, or playing a major-conference opponent and possibly getting television revenue?

I don't think there is any doubt that a CBS, ABC, or ESPN game is accepted instantly, regardless of venue.  By definition, those are going to be high-interest games against a top tier opponent.

The question is whether there is value to settling for a lesser team.

First, your comment about generating extra revenue is simply not there for anything less than an elite level team or in-state team. As was analyzed in another thread, teams like Arizona, Wake Forest and UWM did draw extra fans.   Teams like Dayton, Nebraska, and UMass drew no more fans than the cupcakes they replaced.    And since you gave to play a return game with a home-and-home arrangement, you would have to draw double the attendance to be revenue neutral.  Beefing up the schedule as a revenue boost simply won't work.

Second, and I think more important to the conference, is the lack of upside and significant downside from playing teams from the MVC, CUSA (except Memphis) or the A-10.  For example, the Big East is currently 6-6 versus the A-10 this year, with one game left (Fordham/Georgetown).  At the end of this season, it is very likely that there will be the 7th or 8th place Big East team on the bubble with the 2nd or 3rd place A-10 team.  If Syracuse and UMass are those teams--not an unlikely outcome--then Syracuse is screwed and the Big East loses a bid.   Or consider this possibility:  Providence and Dayton are the bubble teams.  Perhaps Providence loses to UL in conference play while Dayton beats URI.  Hmm.  Against common opponents, Dayton is 2-0, Providence is 0-2.  Advantage Flyers.

The irony here is that a loss to a cupcake--embarrassing as it may be--actually seems to have less impact on NCAA selection.  The Atlantic Sun is not going to get an extra bid because Gardner Webb upset Kentucky.   Gardner Webb simply isn't a credible at-large candidate, and nobody believes that game is anything other than a pure upset.  With the Syracuse/UMass or Providence/URI comparisons, the head-to-head and common opponent games are going to be viewed as credible data in determining which team is more tournament worthy.

The way to establish separation from the pack--if you're in the top 5 in a power conference--is to limit your non-conference games to either elite level teams or bunnies.   A loss to an elite team won't hurt you--Georgetown isn't going to be hurt for losing to Memphis--and a loss to a bunny will be written off as an upset, assuming its isolated and the rest of the performance was strong. 

[chefrad]

"Consolation recruits? I would hardly call a Top-25 recruiting class consolation. So we lost out on a kid to Georgia Tech, where he'll spend one year? Otule, Tyshawn Taylor and Nick Williams are pretty good "consolations."

True--and no one seems to even try to analyze the "value" of a one-ear 5* player vs. a 3-4 year 4*.How important would Thabeet really be to UConn if he leaves after this year? Consider that he might have left last spring had he had any success at all.

As for schedules, not everyone can work the non-con thing as well as Gonzaga. Was it Davidison or Furman who almost beat but lost to top teams. The NCAA is now out of the question for them already  (But their fans saw plenty of good ball).   

[spartan3186]

The NCAA is now out of the question for them already  (But their fans saw plenty of good ball).   

That's not true at all. Not winning those big games just assured that they remain as a one bid conference. They still have an excellent shot at winning their conference and making the big dance. If anything their non-confernce schedule helped prepare them for their conference schedule and the NCAA.

[muwarrior87]

"Consolation recruits? I would hardly call a Top-25 recruiting class consolation. So we lost out on a kid to Georgia Tech, where he'll spend one year? Otule, Tyshawn Taylor and Nick Williams are pretty good "consolations."

True--and no one seems to even try to analyze the "value" of a one-ear 5* player vs. a 3-4 year 4*.How important would Thabeet really be to UConn if he leaves after this year? Consider that he might have left last spring had he had any success at all.

As for schedules, not everyone can work the non-con thing as well as Gonzaga. Was it Davidison or Furman who almost beat but lost to top teams. The NCAA is now out of the question for them already  (But their fans saw plenty of good ball).   

agree w/ spartan, definitely not out of the question. It's more likely they'd get a conference champ auto bid than an atlarge bid anyway. Also, I agree that a 4-star recruit that's here for 3-4 years is far more valuable than a 5 star that's one year and gone. There's not that much difference between the 25th and 100th ranked player at a given position also so it's not a huge drop off.