Poll: If Crean Never Left

[tower912]

 But to claim Buzz is any better is based on a personal hatred of Crean, not objective facts.

I don't hate Crean.   Never have, never will.   I don't hate Buzz.   Never have, never will.   I thank them both for their time at my alma mater.   But if I had to hire just one of them for my basketball program, I would hire Buzz.  Other than the marketing of the program, I can't think of one category that I would rank Crean higher in.   This is based on watching them both.   

[Jay Bee]

We would have lost an exhibition game to a Canadian team today.

[WarriorFan]

  Yes, Crean had some terrible games.  But to claim Buzz is any better is based on a personal hatred of Crean, not objective facts.


[/quote]
I don't hate either one of them.  Someone else will have to fill in date and time, but I recall a game where MU was down 2 late and had a fast break layup and TC interrupted the fast break with a time out.  No basket off his lack of a time out play, game lost.  That was when I decided Crean was not only a horrible game coach, but he was also more likely to be looking in the mirror or posturing for a TV camera than watching the game.

[wadesworld]

Unfortunately, Buzz couldn't hold Crean's jock in terms of player development or developing a rotation. If Buzz got a transfer of a high performing player (JUCO AA or D1 like Wilson, Lockett), that player did okay, development wise.

However, Buzz had no track record to speak of devloping a player out of HS the way Crean did with Wade, Diener, or Novak. Buzz had terrible difficulty getting freshman ready to play his first year (as Crean did with Matthews, McNeal and James). For all the crap Crean gets for underusing Matthews early in his career, Matthews wouldn't even been off the bench under Buzz Williams behind a JUCO AA (Lott) and senior (Chapman). Witness how Buzz benched Burton behind Mayo and Jake Thomas. Crean never left people scracthing their heads to the extent that Buzz did benching Burton and JJJ behind Todd Mayo or Jake Thomas.

As far as his game coaching, I fail to see any signficant Buzz advantage. Buzz had more than his share of terrible coaching performance, including huge blowouts against Syracuse and UNC in the NCAA, nearly blowing a 1st round matchup against Davidson as a 3 seed, the Ohio State exercise in futility, Notre Dame (blowing the 2013 BET after wining big against them two weeks earlier), Louisville (2012 BET), the 17 point collapse against Louisille in 2011, the embarassing season-ender against Seton Hall that same year, the 25 points loss to UL (2011 BET), a 17 point collapse against Florida State in the Old Spice tournament in Orlando, and a miserable blowout loss to Dayton in Chicago.  Yes, Crean had some terrible games.  But to claim Buzz is any better is based on a personal hatred of Crean, not objective facts.

Holy cow this gave me a good laugh.  The absolute funniest part is saying Crean "developed" Wade.  Just like Rick Barnes developed Kevin Durant, Jim Boeheim developed Melo, the St. Vincent St. Mary's high school coach developed LeBron James, etc.  These are NBA Hall of Famers.  Sorry, but if Wade went to DePaul, Marquette, UNC, UWM, wherever, Wade was going to carry his coach (Crean, since he chose Marquette with the help of only a select few options) for however long he decided to be at the school, and then he was going to go on and be a top 5 player in his generation.  That had absolutely nothing to do with Tom Crean and absolutely everything to do with Dwyane Wade.

As far as "developing" Novak, I don't think that's true either.  Novak came in as a 6'10" deadeye sharpshooter, and left as a 6'10" deadeye sharpshooter, and has continued to be a 6'10" deadeye sharpshooter in the NBA.  Sure, those skills have gotten better since he was 17 years old, but he hasn't developed anything new to his game.  And Diener was more or less the same.  A good ball handler, a good shooter, but what really made him was he was a freaking warrior.  Crean didn't develop much for either of those guys.  In my opinion, none of those 3 guys developed their games even close to as much as Vander Blue did from his freshman year to his junior year.

And as far as bad games, shucks.  We lost ugly games to a much better UNC team in the NCAA Tournament?  A much better Florida team in the NCAA Tournament?  A game to Florida State team when we went 7 deep and were playing our 3rd game in 3 days, matching up with the complete opposite type of team, a team with a ton of size and depth?  He almost lost a game to a very underseeded, dangerous team in the NCAA Tournament, and then went on to an Elite Eight?  Let's not forget that Crean almost lost to Holy Cross with Dwyane Wade on the team.  Thank you Travis Diener for saving us there.  We lost to a much better Ohio State team early in the season last year (OSU was in the S16, we missed the NIT)?

What coach hasn't had bad games in their career?  Seriously.  You're using a couple of blowout losses to claim Buzz didn't know how to make in game adjustments.  If that's the case, Coach K, Roy, Coach Cal, Bo, Izzo, Self, etc. etc. etc. are clueless when it comes to in game adjustments.  Coach K lost to Lehigh in a first round?  He doesn't know a thing about basketball.  Jim Calhoun lost to George Mason in the NCAA Tournament?  Clueless.  Etc. Etc. Etc.  Crean had just captured MU's first conference title in years and follows it up by losing in the 1st round of the CUSA Tournament to 9 seed UAB.  With Dwyane Wade on the team.  And Travis Diener and Steve Novak.  Bad games happen.  Doesn't mean a coach can't (or can) coach.

[Galway Eagle]

Holy cow this gave me a good laugh.  The absolute funniest part is saying Crean "developed" Wade.  Just like Rick Barnes developed Kevin Durant, Jim Boeheim developed Melo, the St. Vincent St. Mary's high school coach developed LeBron James, etc.  These are NBA Hall of Famers.  Sorry, but if Wade went to DePaul, Marquette, UNC, UWM, wherever, Wade was going to carry his coach (Crean, since he chose Marquette with the help of only a select few options) for however long he decided to be at the school, and then he was going to go on and be a top 5 player in his generation.  That had absolutely nothing to do with Tom Crean and absolutely everything to do with Dwyane Wade.

As far as "developing" Novak, I don't think that's true either.  Novak came in as a 6'10" deadeye sharpshooter, and left as a 6'10" deadeye sharpshooter, and has continued to be a 6'10" deadeye sharpshooter in the NBA.  Sure, those skills have gotten better since he was 17 years old, but he hasn't developed anything new to his game.  And Diener was more or less the same.  A good ball handler, a good shooter, but what really made him was he was a freaking warrior.  Crean didn't develop much for either of those guys.  In my opinion, none of those 3 guys developed their games even close to as much as Vander Blue did from his freshman year to his junior year.

And as far as bad games, shucks.  We lost ugly games to a much better UNC team in the NCAA Tournament?  A much better Florida team in the NCAA Tournament?  A game to Florida State team when we went 7 deep and were playing our 3rd game in 3 days, matching up with the complete opposite type of team, a team with a ton of size and depth?  He almost lost a game to a very underseeded, dangerous team in the NCAA Tournament, and then went on to an Elite Eight?  Let's not forget that Crean almost lost to Holy Cross with Dwyane Wade on the team.  Thank you Travis Diener for saving us there.  We lost to a much better Ohio State team early in the season last year (OSU was in the S16, we missed the NIT)?

What coach hasn't had bad games in their career?  Seriously.  You're using a couple of blowout losses to claim Buzz didn't know how to make in game adjustments.  If that's the case, Coach K, Roy, Coach Cal, Bo, Izzo, Self, etc. etc. etc. are clueless when it comes to in game adjustments.  Coach K lost to Lehigh in a first round?  He doesn't know a thing about basketball.  Jim Calhoun lost to George Mason in the NCAA Tournament?  Clueless.  Etc. Etc. Etc.  Crean had just captured MU's first conference title in years and follows it up by losing in the 1st round of the CUSA Tournament to 9 seed UAB.  With Dwyane Wade on the team.  And Travis Diener and Steve Novak.  Bad games happen.  Doesn't mean a coach can't (or can) coach.

While I agree with the majority of what you're saying about coaches having bad games etc. I do think it's fair to put the chokes against Florida State, Washington and Louisville on Buzz (certain others to) Buzz's best ability is getting his teams playing tough, watch an interview and he'll tell you how tough they are 100x.  They play head and shoulders above what you'd expect but when they over work themselves his coaching wasn't good enough to pick up the slack which is why we've had clunkers against the likes of South Florida, Depaul, Seton Hall etc on top of the occasional blow out losses. 

I do have to say though you think that the Florida team we lost to in the S16 was better than us that year? I think 8 or 9 times out of 10 we win that game in the regular season but Donovan having been there plenty before knew what to do better than Buzz. 

[keefe]

We would have lost an exhibition game to a Canadian team today.

Tanned Tommy in Ottawa: The End is Near

[wadesworld]

While I agree with the majority of what you're saying about coaches having bad games etc. I do think it's fair to put the chokes against Florida State, Washington and Louisville on Buzz (certain others to) Buzz's best ability is getting his teams playing tough, watch an interview and he'll tell you how tough they are 100x.  They play head and shoulders above what you'd expect but when they over work themselves his coaching wasn't good enough to pick up the slack which is why we've had clunkers against the likes of South Florida, Depaul, Seton Hall etc on top of the occasional blow out losses.  

I do have to say though you think that the Florida team we lost to in the S16 was better than us that year? I think 8 or 9 times out of 10 we win that game in the regular season but Donovan having been there plenty before knew what to do better than Buzz.  

I'll give you Washington and Louisville (although I doubt Buzz told Buycks to challenge their shot blocker up by 2 points and the shot clock turned off with 15 seconds left in the game).  Against FSU we went 6.5 deep (our starters all saw 27 or more minutes, Acker came off the bench for 26, and then Maymon got 11 minutes, Fulce got 6, and Mbao got 1 compared to 9 of their guys seeing 16 or more minutes, Lazar, Butler, Fulce, and Maymon being our "inside" guys to their 2 7 footers) and had no bigs and were playing our 3rd game in 3 nights.  We were clearly the better team who just got gassed down the stretch and FSU was able to use their size and depth to take advantage of that.

And yes I do believe Florida was a better team than we were.  They didn't play overly well throughout the regular season, but they always had the talent.  They were much like a team you typically see from Izzo/MSU where they were just starting to put everything together at the right time (heading into March).  They had the best player on the floor, which is always a big deal come NCAA Tournament time (Bradley Beal).  They certainly had the right roster type to go deep in the tourney, with a very good back court (Beal, Boynton, and Walker with Rosario coming off the bench), a very good defensive big (Young), a stretch big (Murphy), and some young guys off the bench (Wilbekin and Prather).  They were a very, very dangerous March team.  Young for a Donovan team, but certainly talented.  Early on in the season I agree, with their youth we probably would've beaten them more often than not in non-conference, but by the end of the season they were the better, more well-rounded team in my opinion.  They had just lost by 3 to the Anthony Davis National Championship team (one of the better teams ever put together in my opinion) in the SEC Tournament and won their first 2 games by a combined 60 points (Norfolk State after beating Mizzou, and Virginia in the 7-10 matchup).

[ChicosBailBonds]

We would have lost an exhibition game to a Canadian team today.

Wisconsin last year, 4-1 on the same Canada trip.  One of their victories was in OT.  Before you know it, there will be someone here claiming we lost a controlled scrimmage with Virginia. 

So when are we going to see the corrected Kentucky recruiting list?

[Class71]

Unfortunately, Buzz couldn't hold Crean's jock in terms of player development or developing a rotation. If Buzz got a transfer of a high performing player (JUCO AA or D1 like Wilson, Lockett), that player did okay, development wise.

However, Buzz had no track record to speak of devloping a player out of HS the way Crean did with Wade, Diener, or Novak. Buzz had terrible difficulty getting freshman ready to play his first year (as Crean did with Matthews, McNeal and James). For all the crap Crean gets for underusing Matthews early in his career, Matthews wouldn't even been off the bench under Buzz Williams behind a JUCO AA (Lott) and senior (Chapman). Witness how Buzz benched Burton behind Mayo and Jake Thomas. Crean never left people scracthing their heads to the extent that Buzz did benching Burton and JJJ behind Todd Mayo or Jake Thomas.

As far as his game coaching, I fail to see any signficant Buzz advantage. Buzz had more than his share of terrible coaching performance, including huge blowouts against Syracuse and UNC in the NCAA, nearly blowing a 1st round matchup against Davidson as a 3 seed, the Ohio State exercise in futility, Notre Dame (blowing the 2013 BET after wining big against them two weeks earlier), Louisville (2012 BET), the 17 point collapse against Louisille in 2011, the embarassing season-ender against Seton Hall that same year, the 25 points loss to UL (2011 BET), a 17 point collapse against Florida State in the Old Spice tournament in Orlando, and a miserable blowout loss to Dayton in Chicago.  Yes, Crean had some terrible games.  But to claim Buzz is any better is based on a personal hatred of Crean, not objective facts.

Does not matter both are gone. Yesterday's news.

[The Equalizer]

Holy cow this gave me a good laugh.  The absolute funniest part is saying Crean "developed" Wade.  Just like Rick Barnes developed Kevin Durant, Jim Boeheim developed Melo, the St. Vincent St. Mary's high school coach developed LeBron James, etc.  These are NBA Hall of Famers.  Sorry, but if Wade went to DePaul, Marquette, UNC, UWM, wherever, Wade was going to carry his coach (Crean, since he chose Marquette with the help of only a select few options) for however long he decided to be at the school, and then he was going to go on and be a top 5 player in his generation.  That had absolutely nothing to do with Tom Crean and absolutely everything to do with Dwyane Wade.

Take your argument up with Wade.  He says you're wrong.  

As far as "developing" Novak, I don't think that's true either.  Novak came in as a 6'10" deadeye sharpshooter, and left as a 6'10" deadeye sharpshooter, and has continued to be a 6'10" deadeye sharpshooter in the NBA.  Sure, those skills have gotten better since he was 17 years old, but he hasn't developed anything new to his game.  And Diener was more or less the same.  A good ball handler, a good shooter, but what really made him was he was a freaking warrior.  Crean didn't develop much for either of those guys.  In my opinion, none of those 3 guys developed their games even close to as much as Vander Blue did from his freshman year to his junior year.

You're the first person I've ever encountered who thinks that Blue overachieved development-wise during his time at MU.

A game to Florida State team when we went 7 deep and were playing our 3rd game in 3 days, matching up with the complete opposite type of team, a team with a ton of size and depth? 

1. It was the 3rd game in 4 days, not 3.  There was a day's rest before the Florida State game.  
2. Plus we had the early game 11/27, while FSU had to play an evening game, so we actualy had more time than they did to recover.  
3. We played 8 deep, FSU played 9--hardly the huge difference you suggest.
4. Matching up with a complete opposite type team didn't keep us from running up a 17 point lead. Sounds like FSU had trouble--until they made an adjusment and Buzz didn't respond.

He almost lost a game to a very underseeded, dangerous team in the NCAA Tournament, and then went on to an Elite Eight?  Let's not forget that Crean almost lost to Holy Cross with Dwyane Wade on the team.  Thank you Travis Diener for saving us there. 

First, Davidson was hardly underseeded. They had a completely underwhelming 8-6 non-conference record, including a loss to UWM and a conference loss to Georgia Southern. They wouldn't have even made the NCAAs if they didn't win the Southern Conference tournament.

And bringing up the Holy Cross game doesn't do anything to defend the premise that Buzz is somehow a better coach.  At best, you seem to be arguing for equivalence.

Except that after the 1st round scare, Crean took MU to a Final Four, while Buzz took us to an Elite Eight.  And somehow that's evidence Buzz is a better coach.

We lost to a much better Ohio State team early in the season last year (OSU was in the S16, we missed the NIT)?

How does does losing to a better team defend Buzz as being a superior coach?  If he BEAT a better team (like Crean did in 2006 against UConn),  that might lend credence to your argument that Buzz is a better coach.  

What you're doing is trying to bring up every bad game of Crean's and every good game of Buzz's and say "look, see what a better coach Buzz is."

All I'm doing is pointing out that Buzz has just as many coaching clunkers, hence the argument that he's somehow a much better coach flies in the face of facts.  

[NotAnAlum]

I believe that MU during Buzz's years was clearly more successful that they would have been under Crean.  Buzz is a much better in game coach.  I don't think Crean really understands the game of basketball anywhere near as well as Buzz.  Buzz is a better recruiter.  I don't think Crean would have been able to consistently deliver the level of talent to MU that Buzz did.  I think he knew that and that is why he left (coupled with the fact that his ego had to have the I4 job when it became available).  If Buzz has a weakness (or something he has yet to prove) its the ability to develop and improve skills particularly with young players.  As for the blow outs people are pointing to during Buzz's era every successful coach is going to have a few.  If Wojo can do everything Buzz did and do better on player development I'm certainly not going to complain if he gets blown out by a quality team on occasion.

[ChicosBailBonds]

We will never know the answer.  Wade, Diener, Novak, etc, all very complimentary of their former coach, some absolutely swearing by him.  Others, don't.

Same for Buzz and some of his former players...some swear by him, others not as much.

This thread has been done at least 20 times in various iterations over the years.  The arguments haven't changed. 

[wadesworld]

Take your argument up with Wade.  He says you're wrong.  

You're the first person I've ever encountered who thinks that Blue overachieved development-wise during his time at MU.

1. It was the 3rd game in 4 days, not 3.  There was a day's rest before the Florida State game.  
2. Plus we had the early game 11/27, while FSU had to play an evening game, so we actualy had more time than they did to recover.  
3. We played 8 deep, FSU played 9--hardly the huge difference you suggest.
4. Matching up with a complete opposite type team didn't keep us from running up a 17 point lead. Sounds like FSU had trouble--until they made an adjusment and Buzz didn't respond.

First, Davidson was hardly underseeded. They had a completely underwhelming 8-6 non-conference record, including a loss to UWM and a conference loss to Georgia Southern. They wouldn't have even made the NCAAs if they didn't win the Southern Conference tournament.

And bringing up the Holy Cross game doesn't do anything to defend the premise that Buzz is somehow a better coach.  At best, you seem to be arguing for equivalence.

Except that after the 1st round scare, Crean took MU to a Final Four, while Buzz took us to an Elite Eight.  And somehow that's evidence Buzz is a better coach.

How does does losing to a better team defend Buzz as being a superior coach?  If he BEAT a better team (like Crean did in 2006 against UConn),  that might lend credence to your argument that Buzz is a better coach.  

What you're doing is trying to bring up every bad game of Crean's and every good game of Buzz's and say "look, see what a better coach Buzz is."

All I'm doing is pointing out that Buzz has just as many coaching clunkers, hence the argument that he's somehow a much better coach flies in the face of facts.  

You really think that Tom Crean is to thank for Wade's "development?"  Well, okay, then.  There's not much I can say.  There is no way that Wade would have been anything but an NBA Superstar regardless of whether Tom Crean, Buzz Williams, Roy Williams, Rob Jeter, or any other college basketball coach was coaching him (obviously assuming no injuries change the course of his basketball career).

Where did I ever say Blue overachieved?  Blue developed as a player.  You disagree with that?  Blue had absolutely no offensive game his freshman year of college.  His outside, mid range, and free throw shots were all absolutely terrible his freshman.  He couldn't finish at the rim with any sort of traffic around his freshman year.  By his junior season, he had developed a very good mid range game, his free throw shot was very reliable, and he finished in traffic with ease (see: Davidson and St. John's end of game situations as examples).  If you don't think he developed from his freshman  year to his junior year then once again, I don't know what to tell you.  He developed (his game changed) much more than Novak, Diener, or Wade in college (whose games were the same from their freshman to junior/senior years...not saying they didn't get better, but they had the same skill set).

You consider 8 deep to be the top 6 in minutes over 25 minutes and then the 7th with 11 minutes and 8th with 6?  Okay.  Once again, not much more to say here.  That's 6 deep if you ask me, but hey, if you think 11 and 6 are significant minutes then sure.  Sorry I was wrong about the 3 games in 4 nights vs. 3 in 3.  That is still a lot of playing, and against high level competition.  3 games in 4 nights against Xavier, Michigan, and Florida State is a lot of high level play.  Like I said, yes, we blew a big lead.  We were also gassed.  When you play 6 guys and have 3 games in 4 nights, and you come out rolling a team and then it stops, I'm willing to give a pass and say that players were gassed.  Apparently you think it was just a lack of coaching ability.  So be it.

Davidson was very good.  They would've beaten Butler, who was also very good.  They made very few mistakes, defended very well, spread the floor, and could shoot the basketball.  Sure they had some early season struggles, and no kidding they wouldn't have made the NCAA had they lost in their conference tourney, nobody gets an at large bid out of that conference.  Doesn't mean they weren't a dangerous and underseeded team.  There is a reason they were the popular upset pick in the 1st round.


And listen, you're the one who brought up all the bad games Buzzed had in order to point out what a bad game coach he was.  I'm just countering your points and pointing to the fact that Crean, like every other coach in college basketball has had some clunkers of games.  Remember when we set a record for not scoring a single 2 point field goal against Michigan State in the 1st half of the NCAA Tournament, an 8 vs. 9 seed game?  It's not like MSU was some dominant team that year.  That was some awful coaching.  Buzz had his bad games.  Crean had his bad games.  Hard to make a case that Coach X is an awful game coach because of X game when we got blown out.  What coach hasn't been blown out?  That's my point.  Your point was "Buzz sucked because of these games, how awful."  I was just pointing out that Crean had some of those too.  Would have never brought up individual games if you hadn't.

And once again, if you think Buzz never beat a team that was better than his team, then again I don't know what to tell you.  That is simply dumb.  We went to a S16 as an 11 seed.  Crean had 1 NCAA Tourney win without Dwyane Wade in 9 years at Marquette.  Buzz doubled that number as an 11 seed in one NCAA Tournament.

[CTWarrior]

I think this poll is missing the most likely scenario under Crean, which would have been fairly regular (something like 2 out of 3 or 3 out of 4 years) NCAA participant regularly eliminated the first weekend with maybe a lucky Sweet 16 in there.  Somewhere between the third and fourth options.

[tower912]

What Buzz never had was a loss to Winthrop, a loss to North Dakota.   He lost 4 games to non power conference teams.   Dayton in 08-09, Gonzaga in 10-11, Butler in 12/13, all neutral court games, and at UWGB in 12-13.   

[Galway Eagle]

I'll give you Washington and Louisville (although I doubt Buzz told Buycks to challenge their shot blocker up by 2 points and the shot clock turned off with 15 seconds left in the game).  Against FSU we went 6.5 deep (our starters all saw 27 or more minutes, Acker came off the bench for 26, and then Maymon got 11 minutes, Fulce got 6, and Mbao got 1 compared to 9 of their guys seeing 16 or more minutes, Lazar, Butler, Fulce, and Maymon being our "inside" guys to their 2 7 footers) and had no bigs and were playing our 3rd game in 3 nights.  We were clearly the better team who just got gassed down the stretch and FSU was able to use their size and depth to take advantage of that.

And yes I do believe Florida was a better team than we were.  They didn't play overly well throughout the regular season, but they always had the talent.  They were much like a team you typically see from Izzo/MSU where they were just starting to put everything together at the right time (heading into March).  They had the best player on the floor, which is always a big deal come NCAA Tournament time (Bradley Beal).  They certainly had the right roster type to go deep in the tourney, with a very good back court (Beal, Boynton, and Walker with Rosario coming off the bench), a very good defensive big (Young), a stretch big (Murphy), and some young guys off the bench (Wilbekin and Prather).  They were a very, very dangerous March team.  Young for a Donovan team, but certainly talented.  Early on in the season I agree, with their youth we probably would've beaten them more often than not in non-conference, but by the end of the season they were the better, more well-rounded team in my opinion.  They had just lost by 3 to the Anthony Davis National Championship team (one of the better teams ever put together in my opinion) in the SEC Tournament and won their first 2 games by a combined 60 points (Norfolk State after beating Mizzou, and Virginia in the 7-10 matchup).

Even if Otule doesn't go down and Gardner isn't coming off a knee injury? I don't know man I'll give you Beal is better overall but in college I'd be hard pressed to take him over DJO.  And while I'll agree the pasting of Virginia was crazy I don't think it's much to brag about regarding the slaughtering of Norfolk state.  Norfolk had an amazing center and a lot of experience that's it so they handled a midget mizzou team.  And the loss by three to Davis' team isn't anything to write home about either as it was the third time those two teams played and a loss is still a loss, just means they played well that game. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

What Buzz never had was a loss to Winthrop, a loss to North Dakota.   He lost 4 games to non power conference teams.   Dayton in 08-09, Gonzaga in 10-11, Butler in 12/13, all neutral court games, and at UWGB in 12-13.   

Conversely, Buzz never had a win over #1 team in the country, a trip to the Final Four, a win over the ACC champion, or the SEC champion, etc.  Crean never had a few kids end up on the front pages for the wrong reasons.  Lots of things to pick on with both coaches.


As for the players that Wadesworld refers to in terms of development, we'll never know.  In my view, best to ask the players.  In many cases, it is merely the need of someone to push the hell out of them to succeed.  Some coaches can pull this off, some cannot.  That is where Novak, Wade, Oladipo, others have credited Crean for forcing them to become great.  Buzz has similar benefactors.  Whether these players would have just magically gotten to the levels they got to regardless of the coach, I'm not so sure.  Different people respond to different stimulus.   Just as we'll never know if Davidson would beat Butler as he intimated...that same Davidson team lost to 12-19 Georgia Southern, 13-18 Drexel, 6-24 UW-Milwaukee, etc.  No one knows and anyone who says they do, is just opining and guessing, nothing more.

[Dawson Rental]

Conversely, Buzz never had a win over #1 team in the country, a trip to the Final Four, a win over the ACC champion, or the SEC champion, etc.  Crean never had a few kids end up on the front pages for the wrong reasons.  Lots of things to pick on with both coaches.


As for the players that Wadesworld refers to in terms of development, we'll never know.  In my view, best to ask the players.  In many cases, it is merely the need of someone to push the hell out of them to succeed.  Some coaches can pull this off, some cannot.  That is where Novak, Wade, Oladipo, others have credited Crean for forcing them to become great.  Buzz has similar benefactors.  Whether these players would have just magically gotten to the levels they got to regardless of the coach, I'm not so sure.  Different people respond to different stimulus.   Just as we'll never know if Davidson would beat Butler as he intimated...that same Davidson team lost to 12-19 Georgia Southern, 13-18 Drexel, 6-24 UW-Milwaukee, etc.  No one knows and anyone who says they do, is just opining and guessing, nothing more.

Buzz did have a win over the ACC regular season and tournament champion in the 2013 NCAA tournament win over Miami.

[mu-rara]

Crean would have been fired after 3-4 more years. 

His recruiting was very uneven year to year.  If it is true that he was convinced he couldn't recruit high level talent to Marquette, he would have run out of gas and the results on the court would have gone down hill.