If Buzz needed to win to keep job......

[GGGG]

23 games in and your defending Buzz for trying to find a rotation. It's not even worth a discussion with you. When buzz looks back he'll even say he messed up this year. I'm a buzz guy, but he's doubling down on bad decisions. It's not coincidence that the team performs when he settles with a rotation in the second half.

Well geez...I wonder why he settles on a rotation in the second half, and why that rotation seems to differ from game to game.

Hmmmm....

[Goose]

Merritt

If you do not follow top 20 basketball how can you make valid points on any team? Obviously there needs to be a bar that you compare MU to to make your point. Also, if you are preseason conference pick, presason 25 team and expectations are high the NC performance is graded differently. I have seen posts on Scoop regarding UWGB and their success and I am guessing those posts are based off UWGB having lower expectations going into a season.

[jesmu84]

Maybe it is a coincidence but when Mayo has a good/great game we seem to win and when Thomas does .... well it does not seem to matter much

I'm not singling you out, you just had the last Mayo/Thomas response. The original point was Mayo's worst performance is better than Jake's best performance. That statement is about as wrong as wrong could get. Is Mayo better than Jake? Yes. But Jake's best performance is 10000000000 times better than Mayo's worst performance. There is no discussion or argument to this. It's just fact.

[River rat]

I'm not singling you out, you just had the last Mayo/Thomas response. The original point was Mayo's worst performance is better than Jake's best performance. That statement is about as wrong as wrong could get. Is Mayo better than Jake? Yes. But Jake's best performance is 10000000000 times better than Mayo's worst performance. There is no discussion or argument to this. It's just fact.

I agree with this 10000%

also to the clowns that beg for a shorter rotation.  Who the hell do you want those players to be???  This board is so schizophrenic it is absurd.  Jake has a good game he needs to play more, Derrick has a good game derrick good, derrick has a poor game, John dawson is the savior.  todd mayo has 4 turnovers a flagrant fould and zero points and he is abad teammate , Buzz needs to cut him, after wisconsin, no place in the program for him. After last night he needs to start and play 30.  otule good then bad.  Ox cant play d , but has to be on the court.  

WOW!!  umm our team is undertalented and wholly inconsitant.  Those are the 2 tell tale signs of a average team.  Any of you geniuses think Buzz might be looking for how will show up on a game to game basis ???  he showed last night and in games and years in the past that if he does find that 7-8-9 man rotaion he will go with it.  it hasnt been found by Buzz or any of Buzzes naysayers on this board.  hell half the posters were ready to annoint Juan Anderson a month ago and now the same people want him to transfer

[Goose]

I could argue that Jake's poor performances, which are more than one, have cost us games and his best has not one us a game yet. Todd's worst, usually in very little playing time, may have been a part of us losing games and hisbest has won games for us and this does not include the 10 points in 34 seconds to keep us in game against #6 team in the country.

To me it is pretty simple, the SOTG is voted on by Scoopers and Mayo has 3 (not sure if updated) and Jake 0. That is a fact printed on Scoop sidebar. Anyone that feels the Jake is in same discussion with Mayo as basketball player does not know the game. Note--that is coming from a guy who is not a big Mayo fan.

[mu-rara]

Why are we even talking about Buzz's job?

This was my 1st thought.  2nd was WTF.  3rd was what an idiot.

[GGGG]

Remember the good ole days when people thought that Buzz didn't play enough players?

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=14176.0

[Goose]

Sultan

He had the players to play back then and he chose the 7 that gave us best chance to win. He was not a two time S16 and one E8 coach then and pressure was on to get W's. My whole point on this thread.

[GGGG]

Sultan

He had the players to play back then and he chose the 7 that gave us best chance to win. He was not a two time S16 and one E8 coach then and pressure was on to get W's. My whole point on this thread.

My point in posting that link is that people complained about short rotations...now they complain about long rotations.  No matter what Buzz does people here will bitch for some reason or other.

[Goose]

Sultan

Valid point. My whole point here is that success allows coaches to do different things. If this whole season is a life lesson for the young guys I am cool with it. IMO the goal has not to win at all cost and cool with that as well. I am trying to figure out the plan is for this season. Granted Buzz's goal is none of my business. I am trying to find a silver lining in this season and struggling to do so.

[CTWarrior]

If you ask me, it's near impossible (well, not smart anyway) to come up with a regular 8 man rotation on this team.  Other than Jamil, we don't have guys who are flat out better than other guys at positions.  Usually you're better off with Gardner, but there are occasions where Otule is what we need.  Good Todd > Good Jake, Bad Todd < Bad Jake, etc.

The roster just doesn't lend itself to a standard arrangement of minutes.  There is not just one right way to do things.  Buzz has always adapted our style to fit the personnel.  He is doing what he has to do.  Only other option is giving up and playing the young guys with a look to the future, and I don't think that is right.

[jesmu84]

I could argue that Jake's poor performances, which are more than one, have cost us games and his best has not one us a game yet. Todd's worst, usually in very little playing time, may have been a part of us losing games and hisbest has won games for us and this does not include the 10 points in 34 seconds to keep us in game against #6 team in the country.

To me it is pretty simple, the SOTG is voted on by Scoopers and Mayo has 3 (not sure if updated) and Jake 0. That is a fact printed on Scoop sidebar. Anyone that feels the Jake is in same discussion with Mayo as basketball player does not know the game. Note--that is coming from a guy who is not a big Mayo fan.

Ok.... No disagreement from anything you said here.

But, once again, that wasn't the original statement/argument. The original statement was "If beating St. John's meant saving his job I highly doubt that Jamil and Mayo would have sat the 2nd half. Their worst efforts are better than Juan's an Jake's best efforts. "

Again, this is a false statement. Period. You can't argue for it being true. Mayo's worst performance, say against St. Johns, is not better than Jake's best performance, say against ASU. Regardless of the outcome of the game. Mayo's worst individual performance is not better than Jake's best individual performance regardless of team outcome. I'm not sure if you're not understanding your original statement or you're moving the goalposts repeatedly or you just can't admit you were wrong.

[brandx]

While watching the St. John's game, did Todd Mayo give you any indication that he was poised to put this team on his back and lead a come-from-behind victory 3 days later? Did you watch Jamil get benched in that game and think that he was going to be the team's primary offense in the first half of the next game?

This team is wildly inconsistent. If the versions of Mayo and Jamil who played last night had played every game, this season would look very different.

As I said yesterday before the game - yes.

Buzz benched them both for a reason - to send a message to the upperclassmen that you play hard and smart or you don't play.

[brandx]

Merritt

If beating St. John's meant saving his job I highly doubt that Jamil and Mayo would have sat the 2nd half. Their worst efforts are better than Juan's an Jake's best efforts. Buzz has earned the right to do what he seems fit and he is doing that this season. This is a strange season and the constant changes in lineups have made it even more strange.

For the record, this is not the first time an MU coach has made similar decisions. Al put a walk on, in OT,  in during a must win game in late '77 and we lost. Rick flat out told guys that they would get limited minutes at best prior to the season because he was going to play lesser talented guys. Coaches that earned their stripes are in position to do different things than guys fighting for their jobs.

I have ZERO problem with what Buzz is doing, especially now because probably a lost season already. If something positive come out of this season all the better. But, to think that Jamil and Todd sitting 2nd half Saturday gave us best chance to win I think is beyond crazy.

Good post. Except I may disagree with the last sentence. Buzz thought guys who demonstrated that they wanted to win gave us the best chance to win. And clearly there was NO fight in Todd & Jamil in the 1st half.

[Dreadman24]

I could argue that Jake's poor performances, which are more than one, have cost us games and his best has not one us a game yet. Todd's worst, usually in very little playing time, may have been a part of us losing games and hisbest has won games for us and this does not include the 10 points in 34 seconds to keep us in game against #6 team in the country.

To me it is pretty simple, the SOTG is voted on by Scoopers and Mayo has 3 (not sure if updated) and Jake 0. That is a fact printed on Scoop sidebar. Anyone that feels the Jake is in same discussion with Mayo as basketball player does not know the game. Note--that is coming from a guy who is not a big Mayo fan.

+1 million

[mattyv1908]

I think what he's trying to say is that along with Todd's p!$$ poor performance against St. John's everyone else stunk up the court as well until they called off the dogs late in the 2nd half and Wilson scored uncontested lay ups.  EVERYONE stunk against St. John's...

[NersEllenson]

No.   But if the Todd Mayo of the St John's game is the Todd Mayo du jour, then I want Jake out there.   You may have noticed he was on the floor during the big run last night.  

The Todd Mayo of St. John's is often times the Jake Thomas we got 75% of the time.  There is ZERO reason why Jake Thomas should ever get more minutes than Todd Mayo.  I've said before Jake at least serves the purpose of spacing the floor, and that has some benefit to the team offensively, along with his ability to hit 3 point shots...so I'm not a complete Jake hater - but am one, when he gets way more minutes than Mayo..or his minutes are coming at the expense of Mayo..

The point with Todd is that he's FAR more talented than Jake, yet plays on average 6-7 less minutes per game than Jake, can't "earn" the starting spot, and historically Buzz yanks him in and out of the lineup like a Yo-Yo...and thus you get inconsistent play.  Ironically, Buzz played Mayo ALL of the 2nd half and surprise, surprise...Todd played well.

Sure would be nice if Buzz gave the guys with the talent the longest leashes...and not those with the least....which is the way its been this year.  

[brandx]

The Todd Mayo of St. John's is often times the Jake Thomas we got 75% of the time.  There is ZERO reason why Jake Thomas should ever get more minutes than Todd Mayo.  I've said before Jake at least serves the purpose of spacing the floor, and that has some benefit to the team offensively, along with his ability to hit 3 point shots...so I'm not a complete Jake hater - but am one, when he gets way more minutes than Mayo..or his minutes are coming at the expense of Mayo..

The point with Todd is that he's FAR more talented than Jake, yet plays on average 6-7 less minutes per game than Jake, can't "earn" the starting spot, and historically Buzz yanks him in and out of the lineup like a Yo-Yo...and thus you get inconsistent play.  Ironically, Buzz played Mayo ALL of the 2nd half and surprise, surprise...Todd played well.

Sure would be nice if Buzz gave the guys with the talent the longest leashes...and not those with the least....which is the way its been this year.  

I partially agree. Jake should not be on the floor with Derrick.

I like him out there with Mayo and Burton. He keeps on guy occupied all the time so Todd and Deonte have more room in the paint.

[NersEllenson]

I partially agree. Jake should not be on the floor with Derrick.

I like him out there with Mayo and Burton. He keeps on guy occupied all the time so Todd and Deonte have more room in the paint.

Nobody should be.   

But...if it has to be...that Derrick is on the floor....Jake has to have Mayo on the floor...and Jamil or Burton.  Cannot have what we had for about 15 games this season - Derrick, Jake, Juan, Jamil, Chris...need at least 2 very talented offensive threats on the court with Jake and Derrick..to help extract Jake's value.

[MuMark]

Plus minus for last night.....Otule much better then Gardner

http://statsheet.com/mcb/games/2014/02/04/butler-62-marquette-69

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Plus minus for last night.....Otule much better then Gardner

http://statsheet.com/mcb/games/2014/02/04/butler-62-marquette-69

According to +/-, our best lineup was unsurprisingly:

Derrick
Mayo
Thomas
Burton
Otule

More surprisingly, it also said that the three best players on the court were:

Otule +15
Thomas +15
D Wilson +11

You may like Mayo/Burton's offense but that doesn't happen without the little things that the others do

[Goose]

Ners

I am going to let you fight the battle, but you do seem to be correct to me:)

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Nobody should be.   

But...if it has to be...that Derrick is on the floor....Jake has to have Mayo on the floor...and Jamil or Burton.  Cannot have what we had for about 15 games this season - Derrick, Jake, Juan, Jamil, Chris...need at least 2 very talented offensive threats on the court with Jake and Derrick..to help extract Jake's value.

I'll take a permanent posting ban if you quit talking about Derrick Wilson.

[Dawson Rental]

My point in posting that link is that people complained about short rotations...now they complain about long rotations.  No matter what Buzz does people here will bitch for some reason or other.

Somehow I think that you have hit upon the essential nature of MUScoup during a disappointing season.

[Dawson Rental]

The Todd Mayo of St. John's is often times the Jake Thomas we got 75% of the time.  There is ZERO reason why Jake Thomas should ever get more minutes than Todd Mayo.  I've said before Jake at least serves the purpose of spacing the floor, and that has some benefit to the team offensively, along with his ability to hit 3 point shots...so I'm not a complete Jake hater - but am one, when he gets way more minutes than Mayo..or his minutes are coming at the expense of Mayo..

The point with Todd is that he's FAR more talented than Jake, yet plays on average 6-7 less minutes per game than Jake, can't "earn" the starting spot, and historically Buzz yanks him in and out of the lineup like a Yo-Yo...and thus you get inconsistent play.  Ironically, Buzz played Mayo ALL of the 2nd half and surprise, surprise...Todd played well.

Sure would be nice if Buzz gave the guys with the talent the longest leashes...and not those with the least....which is the way its been this year.  

Okay, I'll use delusional, again.  You think that Todd is more talented, you want to see him play more, but you realize that his consistency is a barrier to that.  If consistency is somehow Todd's fault, then that hurts your argument.  So, your mind needs to find a way to somehow not make it Todd's fault.  Oh yeah, Buzz yanks him like a yo-yo and that's why Todd is inconsistent.  Yeah, that's the ticket!

Maybe Buzz yanks him like a yo-yo because he is inconsistent.  Or maybe Todd freelances too much and gets away from Buzz's game planning.  And just maybe that's why Todd has good games on occasion, because Buzz gets him focused on doing what the team needs him to do.  Nah, that can't be.  That would make Buzz smarter than you.