Jesuits and Warriors as part of their tradition

[Hards Alumni]

My politics are actually pretty neutral. I have voted for both sides of the aisle at all levels. In terms of winning arguments? Please. Much of what I say is tongue in cheek.

You are a liberal, though. Nothing wrong with that. Diversity is our greatest strength.

I don't deny being a liberal, I'm just not sure that the wacko term applies.   It also doesn't mean that every view I hold is liberal (though CBB seems to lump me with the typical liberal when it is convenient).

[ChicosBailBonds]

I don't deny being a liberal, I'm just not sure that the wacko term applies.   It also doesn't mean that every view I hold is liberal (though CBB seems to lump me with the typical liberal when it is convenient).

As you and others do with the other side, I might add.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I think Marquette went from being the Hilltoppers to the Warriors in the early to mid 50s after the Braves moved from Boston to Milwaukee.  I didn't have anything to do with Ignatius Loyola being the Catholic Warrior. It was all about the popularity of the Braves and capitalizing on the "Indian" thing. 

Yup....but to suggest the Jesuits wouldn't want to have anything to do with Warriors is beyond silly considering their history and that of Catholicism in general.

[keefe]

I don't deny being a liberal, I'm just not sure that the wacko term applies.   It also doesn't mean that every view I hold is liberal (though CBB seems to lump me with the typical liberal when it is convenient).

I am actually rather ecumenical when it comes to both politics and religion. Diversity brings a richness of perspective and if people can be mature about the discourse then the insight can be particularly compelling. The best ecosystems have an abundance of flora and fauna that co-exist in mutual benefit.

America lost a great legislator when Sen. Olympia Snowe, a moderate Republican from Maine, retired from elected politics last year. Snowe cited the "hyper-partisanship" that has made Congress "dysfunctional" as the reason for her decision to not run for re-election. Snowe is the only woman to have served in both houses of Congress and she was an extremely effective facilitator in an increasingly intolerant Senate. And Snowe is equally critical of both major parties, citing the strident partisanship and accelerating radicalization of platform as debilitating to proper governance.

Extremism in pursuit of any objective is not necessarily the most effective course of action.

[keefe]

Yup....but to suggest the Jesuits wouldn't want to have anything to do with Warriors is beyond silly considering their history and that of Catholicism in general.

In fact, Loyola created the Society of Jesus as a specific para-military response to the Protestant Reformation. And while the Society played key roles in such abominations as the Spanish Inquisition and the liquidation of the Moors it was a superlative missionary force that evangelized throughout the Catholic colonial world.

The rigor, discipline, and organizational excellence of the Society caused Heinrich Himmler to use it as the model for the SS. Hitler publicly referred to Himmler as his personal Ignatius Loyola.

The Society was always viewed as the most efficient, ruthless, and disciplined order within the Church and was often seen as a threat by both ecclesiastical and secular authorities. Jesuits have been repressed over the years precisely for the latent political power they held. To suggest that the Jesuits have ever been anything but warriors is naïve.

[Coleman]

You guys are all missing the point. It has nothing to do with the word warrior itself. The fact is that the Old Testament verses Chicos referenced were written in Hebrew and Jesuit founding documents would have been written in Latin. Warrior is a translation. Of course there has been military imagery and language within Christianity, as there has been in almost every religion around the world.

The point is that "Warriors" in this specific circumstance has direct historic references to imagery that was offensive (I'm sorry but calling Willy Wampum offensive is not being PC, it's calling a spade a spade). It has nothing to do with a lack of creativity. Everyone is aware of the many non offensive uses of Warriors, including Golden State and perhaps even more realistic depictions of Native Americans that have been approved by tribes such as the Florida State Seminoles. The problem is that IN THIS SPECIFIC INSTANCE Warriors is instrincally linked to something else. Keefe you of all people should know that history matters. Marquette cannot claim to have a blank slate and start all over and claim to use Warriors in a non offensive way that acts like the past never happened. People can see through that.

Chicos, I know you are proud of your little slide show, but, let it go.

[Pakuni]

You guys are all missing the point. It has nothing to do with the word warrior itself. The fact is that the Old Testament verses Chicos referenced were written in Hebrew and Jesuit founding documents would have been written in Latin. Warrior is a translation. Of course there has been military imagery and language within Christianity, as there has been in almost every religion around the world.

The point is that "Warriors" in this specific circumstance has direct historic references to imagery that was offensive (I'm sorry but calling Willy Wampum offensive is not being PC, it's calling a spade a spade). It has nothing to do with a lack of creativity. Everyone is aware of the many non offensive uses of Warriors, including Golden State and perhaps even more realistic depictions of Native Americans that have been approved by tribes such as the Florida State Seminoles. The problem is that IN THIS SPECIFIC INSTANCE Warriors is instrincally linked to something else. Keefe you of all people should know that history matters. Marquette cannot claim to have a blank slate and start all over and claim to use Warriors in a non offensive way that acts like the past never happened. People can see through that.

Chicos, I know you are proud of your little slide show, but, let it go.

Amen.
The irony here is that some are calling for the return of Warriors in the name of tradition, while ignoring that the entire tradition is built around Native American imagery, most of it insulting Native American imagery. That's a key point.

The solution, they say, is to do away with the imagery .... but doing so renders the whole tradition argument moot because the imagery is the tradition.
There simply is no Warrior tradition at Marquette that is free of that imagery.

Anyhow, I'm fine if MU goes back to Warriors, and I'm fine if they don't. But I don't pretend that it can be done in some fashion that doesn't dredge up the nickname's negative past.

[keefe]

You guys are all missing the point. It has nothing to do with the word warrior itself. The fact is that the Old Testament verses Chicos referenced were written in Hebrew and Jesuit founding documents would have been written in Latin. Warrior is a translation. Of course there has been military imagery and language within Christianity, as there has been in almost every religion around the world.

The point is that "Warriors" in this specific circumstance has direct historic references to imagery that was offensive (I'm sorry but calling Willy Wampum offensive is not being PC, it's calling a spade a spade). It has nothing to do with a lack of creativity. Everyone is aware of the many non offensive uses of Warriors, including Golden State and perhaps even more realistic depictions of Native Americans that have been approved by tribes such as the Florida State Seminoles. The problem is that IN THIS SPECIFIC INSTANCE Warriors is instrincally linked to something else. Keefe you of all people should know that history matters. Marquette cannot claim to have a blank slate and start all over and claim to use Warriors in a non offensive way that acts like the past never happened. People can see through that.

Chicos, I know you are proud of your little slide show, but, let it go.

Vic,

I am with you on the sins of the past in this case. The Willie Wampum caricature is one of the worst in college sports history. It would be impossible to erase the stigma of such an offensive image.

A parallel case from business would be the demise of the Sambo's restaurant chain. Originally named for the two founders the public made an immediate association with the book, The Story of Little Black Sambo. Ownership embraced the connection and incorporated images from the story into the brand. The chain championed itself as a family destination and reinforced that concept with children's loyalty programs, themed menus, and décor packages that all celebrated Little Black Sambo imagery.

The chain was a runaway success and within 20 years it had 1,200 stores open in all lower 48 states. Beginning in the early 80's the corporation was targeted by the NAACP, SCLC, and numerous other organizations for boycott and legal action, deeming the Sambo images to be racially offensive. The chain renamed itself, sought Chapter 11 protection, etc... but nothing worked to erase the stain of the Sambo imagery. In a perverse irony the chain was a testament to the power of branding, in both a positive then negative way.

In this case, management did everything it could to rebrand itself. But the association with the restaurant and Little Black Sambo was too strong and the public avoided the renamed, redecorated stores with a vengeance. Within 5 years the chain went from 1,200 roof tops to less than 700. The remaining locations were sold to Denny's and a very successful enterprise was brought down within years because of its branding.

As much as we might wish to bring back a reconstituted Warrior, the crude, artless, and boorish Willie Wampum image is still too powerful an image to overcome. Having said which, that does not excuse the University from adopting Golden Eagles. There could hardly have been a more banal and mundane choice. It is not simply clichéd but there could hardly be a more disaffiliated image for the University, its mission, history, location, convictions, values, or associated constituencies. What is shocking is that the University is a community of exquisitely educated members who should have been more than able to rise to this occasion. There performance on this matter, going back to the 1950's is both embarrassing and shameful.

[Dr. Blackheart]

AYDS "weight loss suppression" was not a great branding choice during the 80's either. 

[ZiggysFryBoy]

America lost a great legislator when Sen. Olympia Snowe, a moderate Republican from Maine, retired from elected politics last year. Snowe cited the "hyper-partisanship" that has made Congress "dysfunctional" as the reason for her decision to not run for re-election. Snowe is the only woman to have served in both houses of Congress and she was an extremely effective facilitator in an increasingly intolerant Senate. And Snowe is equally critical of both major parties, citing the strident partisanship and accelerating radicalization of platform as debilitating to proper governance.

actually, Tommy Thompson's mail it in Senate campaign allowed Tammy Baldwin to become a US Senator after being a Representative from Mad-town for 10-12 years.

[keefe]

actually, Tommy Thompson's mail it in Senate campaign allowed Tammy Baldwin to become a US Senator after being a Representative from Mad-town for 10-12 years.

Good catch, Ziggy. I should amend my narrative to say that Sen. Olympia Snowe was the first woman to serve in both houses of Congress.

I am not familiar with Baldwin. But if she represents Madison she is likely a Wisconsin version of Rep. Jim McDermott. I assume she replaced Sen. Kohl? Kohl is an HBS grad who did well in the commercial world but he is far less accomplished as a politician.

[Hards Alumni]

As you and others do with the other side, I might add.

example please.

[keefe]

AYDS "weight loss suppression" was not a great branding choice during the 80's either. 

I never heard of that. Funny, in a dark way. I presume the brand didn't outlast Jim Nabors?

[Blue Horseshoe]

Very timely article from Jim Goad today. The Progressive Glossary:
http://takimag.com/article/the_progressive_glossary_jim_goad/page_2#axzz2TqYKvLlV